A contradiction in the bible

I doubt they had crack in those days - but hey, you can fantasize if you like



I see you are trying but keep getting it all wrong. I doubt anyone would wonder the desert for 40 years - ESPECIALLY when they died at the age of 33+/-. Men killed other people. He did not inspire killings. But hey, you are not perfect - this i know - so i forgive you for thinking that.


66 books written over about 1200 years could get a little mixed up and then translation makes it worse. But then you knew that i know. Remember, the bible is not 1 book - and is not written by 1 man - so yes, there may be contradictions you can use as justification to say it's all BS and make yourself feel better.



Oh i am SURE he will comment when your time comes. But, not having eternal life will be a "God send" (excuse the pun) as you won't have to suffer these issues in the next life. But i will put in a good word for you and let him know that you just didn't know about Google.

You have just proven quite a lot about yourself by your post. You also seem quite pissed at Catholics/Christians and you have all these ideas about who wrote the bible. I suggest go here and do a little research and then come back a little more enlightened. But i will give you a kick start cos i think you deserve it:

But again, there will be as many sites saying the bible is BS as there are saying it is NOT BS. The deciding factor will be your own faith.

Now it isn't that God or Jesus sat at a desk and wrote the bible. Now hows THAT for a massive hint!! I know, I know - you are indebted to me. But I do this out of kindness because i won't be able to help you in my next life.

[edit on 1/10/2007 by shearder]

I do not know what form your Christianity took, but I, especially when I spoke up against evil, began to have challenges to my faith and belief, I rationally saw through them as lies, it actually strengthed my faith. I do know many of the tricks and wiles of evil to pull us off the path.

I do not follow organizated religion, my church is more often a bar then a actual church building. I try, and fail, to follow the teachings of Jesus Christ.


The bible is a way for Jesus to teach his truths, it is not alone, it is in combination with the words of his spirit.

And on a very bright note, I am glad to hear you once followed Christ, I of coarse do not know his path for you, but will be happy to speak again with you long in the future in the spirit of the after.

John 18:8Jesus answered, "I told you that I am He; so if you seek Me, let these go their way," to fulfill the word which He spoke, " Of those whom You have given Me I lost not one."

The thing about discussing ancient man is that we really have no clue as to what ancient man experienced.

There are theories, each with its own evidence, that can create serious doubt in the similarity of psyche between "him" and us.

For example, the "Atrium" Theory which states the Earth was surrounding by a "blanket" of water/water vapor that shielded us from cosmic radiation. When this fell, the flood happened. Thus, the thick cloud cover obscured the night time sky. Not sure if i believe this one as stated, but it is interesting thought fodder for sure.

What about gravitational flux? The stories of ancient giants, and the sheer size of the large dinosaurs? There obviously has to have been gravitational flux on the whole in the planets history.

Then there is the concept of the "bicameral mind" which states that the hemispeheric actions of the human brain were independant in our ancient past. The communications in our own head would have created a confusing jumble of thought which would likely manifest itself outwardly in much the same way as schizophrenia when you had one with a particularly active imagination. Yeah, that is kind of far fetched, but still interesting thought fodder.

The point is, the mindset of these ancient peoples cannot be known. It can be assumed, but likely wrongly. Further, written history is just as riddled with holes as extrapolated history (think Mesoamerican). The mind that writes the passage is unknown as well as the language being inadequate to describe events that are witnessed. Really, we are left with metaphors that we must then try to piece together. This has unfortunately yielded a very fractured people.

I wonder if Christ really wanted people to be ridiculed or killed for failing to see things the way his followers do? I think he likely didn't, as he was obviously Buddhist.

[edit on 1-10-2007 by bigfatfurrytexan]

I did see your answer. You make more sense of it than I have been able to:




I like your explanation....thank you.



.........Whirlwind

reply to post by LDragonFire

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I assume you are being sarcastic when you say that, as you should be. Yahvah is NOT Baal.





Your link is the Bible. The serpent in the garden was Satan, not an actual snake. He, as the fallen angels at a later date (Gen.6), had the ability to impregnate humans.



Gen.3:3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, 'Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.'"


Touch #5060 naga', to touch, i.e. lay the hand upon (for any purpose; euphem. to lie with a woman);......(snip)


It goes much farther than that but I'll give a condensed version:


Gen.4:2 And she again bare his brother Abel. And Abel was a keeper of sheep, but Cain was a tiller of the ground.


Again bare is to continue in labor.....she had twins, of different fathers. Cain is not listed in the geneology of Adam.

So....when we read John 8:44, it has much more meaning than first thought:


John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning , and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.


Who was a murderer and liar from the beginning? Cain.


If you are truly interested in this I can go into greater detail, just let me know.



..........Whirlwind

I'm glad you mentioned this and I happen to agree it makes no sense.

Add Mary into the mix and things get even weirder. People bow, pray and worship the "holy mother" as if she herself were their God and to me that is a contradiction of biblical rules as well.

It makes as much sense as praying to Joseph as the "holy father".

Essentially though if you look back all of this was based on pagan deities and the ancient "savior archetypes" revisited. Looks like too many chefs in the kitchen to me.

Are you just making this up as we go along? Cain is Satan's Son?? please do link me.





So just pick the definition that fits best? Eve was told not to Eat then you are going to jump to lie with a woman?? in referring too neither shall ye touch it?
Wow thats a leap, I have heard of the literal translation then the metaphoric translation and now we have the whirlwind translation.

Set a chocolate cake on a table in front of kids, and you tell them they can't eat it, And they Better Not touch it. Do tell what this means??




35And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.

36If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

37I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you.

38I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father.

39They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.

40But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.

41Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.

42Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

43Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.

44Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

45And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.

46Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?

47He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God. 35And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.

36If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

37I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you.

38I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father.

39They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.

40But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.

41Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.

42Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

43Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.

44Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

45And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.

46Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?

47He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God. John 8:35-47 (King James Version)

He was talking about humans, where is he talking about Cain. You are using John to describe a event in Genesis??

Please do continue

I just haven't made it that far, Yet and we haven't even touched on the Holy Spirit yet.

[edit on 1-10-2007 by LDragonFire]

reply to post by whirlwind

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In a nutshell are you stating that the tree of knowledge in Genesis is actually Satan or the Devil??

Satan and the devil are one and the same. He is the tree of knowledge of good and evil, he is Lucifer, the accuser, wormwood, the deceiver, the abomination of desolation, the serpent, etc., etc. He is also the anti-christ, or I should say, that is a role he will play. Anti-christ was mistranslated and should have been "instead of Christ". He comes to earth pretending to be Christ and will fool many.


He was there at the beginning and will be at the end.


I'll go more into depth about what happened in the garden in reply to your other post.


........Whirlwind

Not all Chritians believe in the trinity. Many understand that it is a concept derived from Pagan religions and adopted some time after the death of the Apostles who, while alive, stood as a bullwark agianst the philosophies of men creeping into the congregation.

Jesus clearly stated that he was not equal; to the Father here;





[edit on 1-10-2007 by Sparky63]

Many Christians reject the trinity because they understand its origins.
For instance note these references;

The New Catholic Encyclopedia states:


The New Encyclopædia Britannica says:


In The Encyclopedia Americana we read:


And here it pretty much sums up the real origin of this false doctrine.

According to the Nouveau Dictionnaire Universel,


John L. McKenzie, S.J., in his Dictionary of the Bible, says:

reply to post by shearder

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"Oh i am SURE he will comment when your time comes"

Your god can't speak for himself?. Wheres your faith my lad. Oh!, Thats right, believers of faith get ugly and delusional when confronted with statements questioning there faith.

This debate has ended my friend. Unless your god wishes to make an appeal.

Are you your own father, son, and brother?


Back on topic: One of the largest debate among the Catholic Church is if Jesus is God or if he was just a vessel for God's spirit.

Some claim he is God, some claim he is the servant of God and taught people by using God's spirit from inside of him.

Either way, it doesn't make sense when you take into accout that Jesus prayed to God. If he is God, did he pray to himself and why? Why would God pray to himself? If he was the vessel of God, does that mean Jesus talked to himself? If so, then when his followers prayed to God, did they face Jesus?

There are also passages in the Bible claiming the Father is in heaven. If the Father is in heaven and Jesus is God, then who were people supposed to pray to?

If Jesus is the word, and the word has always been with God, then wouldn't that mean that Jesus existed in heaven before coming to Earth, then after leaving Earth went back to heaven? If he went back to heaven, and he is God, then wouldn't that mean that both the son and father are in heaven side by side?

If he merely was a product of God's spirit, and was then combined back into God's spirit when he goes back to heaven, then it would fall in line with beliefs of Brahmin, or karma (our spirits returning to the original creator and combining with his).

One should also take into account that Christianity teaches that Jesus will return. If he returns, will it be in human form, through another birth, or will it be spiritual?

Another former Christian here with some thoughts regarding some of the posts. I may start off a bit off-topic, but bear with me. I get to the point in the end.

First, if God created man in his image and is all-powerful and all-knowing and all-seeing and everywhere at all times, why was it necessary for him to come in the form of man in the flesh through which he could understand the way we live? I mean, if he created us, shouldn't he already know what we think, what we feel, what we do, how we live, and so on?

"Christ came to earth to pay for our sins!" Okay, fine. But then why would God, who is all-powerful, all-knowing, all-seeing, and everywhere at all times, create sin and/or a means through which we could sin?

"Sin was caused by Satan!" Alright then. So here we go again. God, who is all-powerful and all-knowing and all-seeing and everywhere at all times, created a being, Satan in this case, who he (God) knew (this is all God's plan, right?) would tempt the humans he (God) created in his (God) image, causing them to sin. I'm sorry, but why would God do this? Why would a loving God create a being who would, in turn, cause humans to become flawed creatures who, as a result, are seen by God as filthy and unworthy and only redeemable by the sacrifice of his own son? Why would a loving God create an evil being who, as a result of the temptation in Eden, essentially caused the slaughter of millions of people over the course of history?

I don't think God did any of that. I will say that I believe in God, but I don't believe in the God that the Bible speaks of. There is far too much confusion, man-made error and manipulation, and too many likenesses to older texts, for the Bible to be taken as the word of God to be accepted with blind faith.

So, to get to the subject of the trinity, I believe that it is a man-made concept, created for the sole purpose of controlling the masses.

As I mentioned, I believe in God, and I believe that God is worthy of worship in the most simple and pure form that we can give, without all of the added stuff and complications introduced over time by men, in this case with the Bible and organized religion. The definition of worship on Wikipedia states it quite nicely: Worship usually refers to specific acts of religious praise, honour, or devotion, typically directed to a supernatural being such as God, a god or goddess. en.wikipedia.org...

Why does God need to be in three forms? I've already made my point in asking why God would need to dwell among his own creation in order to somehow understand them. Why the Holy Spirit? Is the Christian God not all-powerful, all-knowing, all-seeing, and everywhere at all times? So then, why must there be a Holy Spirit? Is the Holy Spirit doing something that the God entity cannot accomplish?

The answer to that question for some would be, "But God and the Holy Spirit are one in the same." That's fine except for one thing. Why would God need not two, but three personages? This is ALL-POWERFUL God we're talking about!

reply to post by LDragonFire

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Allow me to give a more in depth explanation.

The serpent, (Nachash, a shining one), was also taught to us by Paul.

11 Corinthians 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

Transformed, as used there is "disguised". He will again be disguised at the end of days when he comes to earth disguised as Christ and he will fool many.

I am assuming that you accept that the serpent in the garden is Satan and will go on to what happened there.



I explained earlier that the phrase in Gen.3:3 touch it is to lie with a woman. There are other definitions given but I selected that one as it is in keeping with the rest of the story.

3:6And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.


The Biblical scholar E.W. Bullinger teaches that "good for food" is a euphenism for Lust of the Flesh and "pleasant to the eyes" is Lust of the eyes.

3:13And the Lord God said unto the woman, "What is this that thou hast done?" And the woman said, "The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat."

Beguiled - #5377 Hebrew - nasha; to lead astray, to delude, to seduce, deceive, greatly, utterly
#1818 Greek - exapatao - to seduce wholly , beguile, deceive.

3:16 Unto the woman He said, "I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husand, and he shall rule over thee
Note her conception there.

4:1 And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, "I have gotten a man from the Lord."

2.And she again bare his brother Abel. And Abel was a keeper of sheep, but Cain was a tiller of the ground.

Again bare = to continue in labor. She had twins, of different fathers. Cain is not listed in the geneology of Adam. Adam was not his father.



God speaking to Satan:
Gen.3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her Seed; It shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise His heel."

Seed - Heb.#2232 (also 2231, 2230, 2234) Gush of water, flood, a gushing of fluid (semen) - issue, bear, conceive seed, posterity, carnally, child, fruitful, posterity - seed.

Seed - Greek #4690 (as used in Matthew 13:38) Sperma, the male sperm by impl. offspring.



That first prophecy of Gen.3:15 is later spoken of in:

Rev.12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

The offspring of Cain are termed Kenites. They are not a race but they mix into all others and always create trouble. They are the "tares" and do the work of their father.

John 8:38 I speak that which I have seen with My Father, and ye do that which ye have seen with your father.

44.Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning and abode not in truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own; for he is a liar, and the father of it

Cain was the murderer and liar from the beginning.


47.He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

He is speaking to the tares, the Kenities, sons of Cain.

1 John 3:11-12 For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another....Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one and slew his brother.....


Matthew 13:38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one/

Seed, as used there means , Sperma, male sperm - offspring. You may believe these references to Cain's children are spiritual but that verse nails the true meaning.

13:39.The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.


Matthew 13:28 (speaking about the sowing of the tares) He said unto them, An enemy hath done this......

30.Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, 'Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn."
The tares are gathered first (taken) and this shows there is no "rapture" of the church.


11 Corinthians 11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtility, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

Beguiled here means to be "wholly seduced".



To sumarize why the sin in the garden wasn't eating an apple:

1.Neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die....to lie with a woman

2.The serpent beguiled me and I did eat...to seduce wholly

3.Ye are of your father the devil...he was a murderer from the beginning and abode not in truth....for he is a liar, and the father of it.

4.And I will put enmity between thee and the woman and between thy seed and her seed....God is telling us there is a difference.

5.Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one....That isn't Adam he was of.

6.Ye do the deeds of your father

7.Seed - sperma, offspring

8.The tares are the children of the wicked one.



.........Whirlwind

reply to post by DJMessiah

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When He returns it will be as when He left. He won't need to be born again.


Acts 1:9.And when He had spoken these things, while they beheld, He was taken up; and a cloud received Him out of their sight.

10.And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;

11.Which also said, "Ye me of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, Which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen Him go into heaven."



.......Whirlwind

So if he ascended to heaven in human form and will return in human form, is that really considered a sacrifice of his body?

When He left earth it was in a "transfigured" body, no longer human. That body can apparently go through dimensions. Remember when He appeared to people, after His crucifixion?

Luke 24:30And it came to pass, as He sat at meat with them, He took bread, and blessed it, and brake, and gave to them.

31.And their eyes were opened, and they knew Him; and He vanished out of their sight.

35.And they told what things were done in the way, and how He was known of them in breaking of bread.

36.And as they thus spake, Jesus Himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, "Peace be unto you."

39.Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself: handle Me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see Me have."

43.And He took it, and did eat before them.

51.And it came to pass, while He blessed them, He was parted from them, and carried up into heaven.


He can appear or disappear but He still eats food. He is more than human and more than spirit.




...............Whirlwind

This is how it has been explained to me (growing up in the church)...

I will use a single man by the name of "John" as an example.

John is a: Father
John is a: Brother
John is a: Son

John serves many roles w/ different names, yet he is the same person.