Originally posted by LDragonFire

I'm a Former Christian I once believed as you do now, but I was still empty and searching for something more. In your heart you know what I mean, even though you will not reveal this, this is why you have the urge to renew your faith every Sunday.

I do not know what form your Christianity took, but I, especially when I spoke up against evil, began to have challenges to my faith and belief, I rationally saw through them as lies, it actually strengthed my faith. I do know many of the tricks and wiles of evil to pull us off the path.

I believe humans are spiritual by nature, but I also believe All organized religions are false and have hindered humanities real spiritual growth.

I do not follow organizated religion, my church is more often a bar then a actual church building. I try, and fail, to follow the teachings of Jesus Christ.

I believe the New Age, {as the Christians have labeled them} you know the religions that were ancient long before the old testament are more real. It doesn't help the Bible that it has pagan DNA in it. You would think that God would be capable of having a Clearly Original thought about religious practices, and not just a copy of the old worldwide ways.

The bible is a way for Jesus to teach his truths, it is not alone, it is in combination with the words of his spirit.

And on a very bright note, I am glad to hear you once followed Christ, I of coarse do not know his path for you, but will be happy to speak again with you long in the future in the spirit of the after.

John 18:8Jesus answered, "I told you that I am He; so if you seek Me, let these go their way," to fulfill the word which He spoke, " Of those whom You have given Me I lost not one."

The thing about discussing ancient man is that we really have no clue as to what ancient man experienced.

There are theories, each with its own evidence, that can create serious doubt in the similarity of psyche between "him" and us.

For example, the "Atrium" Theory which states the Earth was surrounding by a "blanket" of water/water vapor that shielded us from cosmic radiation. When this fell, the flood happened. Thus, the thick cloud cover obscured the night time sky. Not sure if i believe this one as stated, but it is interesting thought fodder for sure.

What about gravitational flux? The stories of ancient giants, and the sheer size of the large dinosaurs? There obviously has to have been gravitational flux on the whole in the planets history.

Then there is the concept of the "bicameral mind" which states that the hemispeheric actions of the human brain were independant in our ancient past. The communications in our own head would have created a confusing jumble of thought which would likely manifest itself outwardly in much the same way as schizophrenia when you had one with a particularly active imagination. Yeah, that is kind of far fetched, but still interesting thought fodder.

The point is, the mindset of these ancient peoples cannot be known. It can be assumed, but likely wrongly. Further, written history is just as riddled with holes as extrapolated history (think Mesoamerican). The mind that writes the passage is unknown as well as the language being inadequate to describe events that are witnessed. Really, we are left with metaphors that we must then try to piece together. This has unfortunately yielded a very fractured people.

I wonder if Christ really wanted people to be ridiculed or killed for failing to see things the way his followers do? I think he likely didn't, as he was obviously Buddhist.

[edit on 1-10-2007 by bigfatfurrytexan]

Originally posted by The time lord
Wirlwind - hope you saw my previous post I believe that is a valid answer as 2007 years ago I think they too asked why, it has not taken 2007 years to just notice this problem, the answer was always there anyway.

I did see your answer. You make more sense of it than I have been able to:

Its one spirit of God with different seperations like we are just one connection in the neuron of God's mind so so speak, that is how it sounds like.

I like your explanation....thank you.



.........Whirlwind

Originally posted by whirlwind

Your link is the Bible. The serpent in the garden was Satan, not an actual snake. He, as the fallen angels at a later date (Gen.6), had the ability to impregnate humans.

Are you just making this up as we go along? Cain is Satan's Son?? please do link me.

Gen.3:3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, 'Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.'"


Touch #5060 naga', to touch, i.e. lay the hand upon (for any purpose; euphem. to lie with a woman);......(snip)


It goes much farther than that but I'll give a condensed version:

So just pick the definition that fits best? Eve was told not to Eat then you are going to jump to lie with a woman?? in referring too neither shall ye touch it?
Wow thats a leap, I have heard of the literal translation then the metaphoric translation and now we have the whirlwind translation.

Set a chocolate cake on a table in front of kids, and you tell them they can't eat it, And they Better Not touch it. Do tell what this means??

Gen.4:2 And she again bare his brother Abel. And Abel was a keeper of sheep, but Cain was a tiller of the ground.


Again bare is to continue in labor.....she had twins, of different fathers. Cain is not listed in the geneology of Adam.

So....when we read John 8:44, it has much more meaning than first thought:


John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning , and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.


Who was a murderer and liar from the beginning? Cain.


If you are truly interested in this I can go into greater detail, just let me know.



..........Whirlwind

35And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.

36If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

37I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you.

38I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father.

39They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.

40But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.

41Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.

42Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

43Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.

44Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

45And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.

46Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?

47He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God. 35And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.

36If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

37I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you.

38I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father.

39They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.

40But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.

41Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.

42Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

43Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.

44Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

45And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.

46Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?

47He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God. John 8:35-47 (King James Version)

He was talking about humans, where is he talking about Cain. You are using John to describe a event in Genesis??

Please do continue

Not all Chritians believe in the trinity. Many understand that it is a concept derived from Pagan religions and adopted some time after the death of the Apostles who, while alive, stood as a bullwark agianst the philosophies of men creeping into the congregation.

Jesus clearly stated that he was not equal; to the Father here;

John 14:28, RS: “[Jesus said:] If you loved me, you would have rejoiced, because I go to the Father; for the Father is greater than I.”

[edit on 1-10-2007 by Sparky63]

Originally posted by agoodshot
Many non Christians have the same problem because they do not understand the doctrine of the trinity

Many Christians reject the trinity because they understand its origins.
For instance note these references;

The New Catholic Encyclopedia states:

“The formulation ‘one God in three Persons’ was not solidly established, certainly not fully assimilated into Christian life and its profession of faith, prior to the end of the 4th century. But it is precisely this formulation that has first claim to the title the Trinitarian dogma. Among the Apostolic Fathers, there had been nothing even remotely approaching such a mentality or perspective.”—(1967), Vol. XIV, p. 299.

The New Encyclopædia Britannica says:

“Neither the word Trinity, nor the explicit doctrine as such, appears in the New Testament, nor did Jesus and his followers intend to contradict the Shema in the Old Testament: ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord’ (Deut. 6:4). . . . The doctrine developed gradually over several centuries and through many controversies. . . . By the end of the 4th century . . . the doctrine of the Trinity took substantially the form it has maintained ever since.”—(1976), Micropædia, Vol. X, p. 126.

In The Encyclopedia Americana we read:

“Christianity derived from Judaism and Judaism was strictly Unitarian [believing that God is one person]. The road which led from Jerusalem to Nicea was scarcely a straight one. Fourth century Trinitarianism did not reflect accurately early Christian teaching regarding the nature of God; it was, on the contrary, a deviation from this teaching.”—(1956), Vol. XXVII, p. 294L.

And here it pretty much sums up the real origin of this false doctrine.

According to the Nouveau Dictionnaire Universel,

“The Platonic trinity, itself merely a rearrangement of older trinities dating back to earlier peoples, appears to be the rational philosophic trinity of attributes that gave birth to the three hypostases or divine persons taught by the Christian churches. . . . This Greek philosopher’s [Plato, fourth century B.C.E.] conception of the divine trinity . . . can be found in all the ancient [pagan] religions.”—(Paris, 1865-1870), edited by M. Lachâtre, Vol. 2, p. 1467.

John L. McKenzie, S.J., in his Dictionary of the Bible, says:

“The trinity of persons within the unity of nature is defined in terms of ‘person’ and ‘nature’ which are G[ree]k philosophical terms; actually the terms do not appear in the Bible. The trinitarian definitions arose as the result of long controversies in which these terms and others such as ‘essence’ and ‘substance’ were erroneously applied to God by some theologians.”—(New York, 1965), p. 899.

Originally posted by Funkydung
i am a father
i am a son
i am a brother

im still one

Are you your own father, son, and brother?


Back on topic: One of the largest debate among the Catholic Church is if Jesus is God or if he was just a vessel for God's spirit.

Some claim he is God, some claim he is the servant of God and taught people by using God's spirit from inside of him.

Either way, it doesn't make sense when you take into accout that Jesus prayed to God. If he is God, did he pray to himself and why? Why would God pray to himself? If he was the vessel of God, does that mean Jesus talked to himself? If so, then when his followers prayed to God, did they face Jesus?

There are also passages in the Bible claiming the Father is in heaven. If the Father is in heaven and Jesus is God, then who were people supposed to pray to?

If Jesus is the word, and the word has always been with God, then wouldn't that mean that Jesus existed in heaven before coming to Earth, then after leaving Earth went back to heaven? If he went back to heaven, and he is God, then wouldn't that mean that both the son and father are in heaven side by side?

If he merely was a product of God's spirit, and was then combined back into God's spirit when he goes back to heaven, then it would fall in line with beliefs of Brahmin, or karma (our spirits returning to the original creator and combining with his).

One should also take into account that Christianity teaches that Jesus will return. If he returns, will it be in human form, through another birth, or will it be spiritual?

Originally posted by whirlwind
When He returns it will be as when He left. He won't need to be born again.

So if he ascended to heaven in human form and will return in human form, is that really considered a sacrifice of his body?

Originally posted by DJMessiah

Originally posted by whirlwind
When He returns it will be as when He left. He won't need to be born again.

So if he ascended to heaven in human form and will return in human form, is that really considered a sacrifice of his body?

When He left earth it was in a "transfigured" body, no longer human. That body can apparently go through dimensions. Remember when He appeared to people, after His crucifixion?

Luke 24:30And it came to pass, as He sat at meat with them, He took bread, and blessed it, and brake, and gave to them.

31.And their eyes were opened, and they knew Him; and He vanished out of their sight.

35.And they told what things were done in the way, and how He was known of them in breaking of bread.

36.And as they thus spake, Jesus Himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, "Peace be unto you."

39.Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself: handle Me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see Me have."

43.And He took it, and did eat before them.

51.And it came to pass, while He blessed them, He was parted from them, and carried up into heaven.


He can appear or disappear but He still eats food. He is more than human and more than spirit.




...............Whirlwind

This is how it has been explained to me (growing up in the church)...

I will use a single man by the name of "John" as an example.

John is a: Father
John is a: Brother
John is a: Son

John serves many roles w/ different names, yet he is the same person.