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A contradiction in the bible

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posted on Sep, 10 2008 @ 05:02 PM
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hmm, all serious readers of the Bible surely must agree that the doctrine of the trinity is not found anywhere therein. It is neither explicitly taught, nor is it implied. However, Jesus did explicitly and emphatically say in the gospel of John that he and the father are one... he who has seen me has seen also the Father.
At most these would be proof texts for a duality, therefore John 1:1 should never be sited as a proof text for the trinity.
Ice, water and steam are all H2o there can be no doubt. I have made my business to read and re-read the Bible in its entirety, and all the arguments for a trinity do not hold up. The teaching is not there, it does not even figure for discussion in the final analysis. But when you have such concrete sayings from Jesus to the tune of I am the way the truth and the life, no one comes to the Father except through me, then we should sit up and take stock and really think.
Arguments, incarcerations and downright murder of persons who deny a hazy baseless fudging of the identity of Christ have only served to paint the God of the Bible as petty, selfish and extremely vindictive.
The patriarchs to the best of our knowledge were all monotheistic... so I wonder how they interpreted or expounded on the words Let us make man in our image?




posted on Sep, 10 2008 @ 05:17 PM
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Length, width and height compose an object.



posted on Sep, 10 2008 @ 11:00 PM
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reply to post by amergin
 


But when you have such concrete sayings from Jesus to the tune of I am the way the truth and the life, no one comes to the Father except through me, then we should sit up and take stock and really think.

I think a good idea for anyone trying to understand the relationship between the Father and the Son would do well to think about what Daniel said in ch.7 13
"I kept looking in the night visions,
And behold, with the clouds of heaven
One like a Son of Man was coming,
And He came up to the Ancient of Days
And was presented before Him.
14"And to Him was given dominion,
Glory and a kingdom,
That all the peoples, nations and men of every language
Might serve Him
His dominion is an everlasting dominion
Which will not pass away;
And His kingdom is one
Which will not be destroyed."
I can not imagine that vision being about anyone other than Jesus. It seems to be talking about two separate people (if you can call them that).
God did not somehow transform Himself into Jesus. We as humans do not understand God but we get a clue from John 1. There is something that was of a Divine quality that became flesh. But the Father did not relinquish his Godhood to become Jesus. They are two separate people and one does not become the other. So, to reverse things a bit (from what I stated in earlier posts on this thread) you can, without being completely fraudulent, say that Jesus is God. Jesus has an internal essence that is divine and he put that away, as far as it being something that would benefit himself. He used the part of his divinity that amplified his Father. That essence of God inside Jesus was what was the driving force of God's will and that is what Jesus did. Jesus the man, was a credit to that divinity to be a vessel and a pure servant to it. Even to the point of the destruction of his own flesh.
In Daniel you see God giving recognition to this son of man, for a job well done. Jesus changes from one who is acting in a godlike capacity, to being given all the trappings of a God, with full honors and full authority.
I have had to adjust my thinking on this subject because I have a better appreciation of what might be the biggest threat to good religion. To spell it out a little, the idea that God transforms Himself to fit the situation.


[edit on 10-9-2008 by jmdewey60]



posted on Sep, 10 2008 @ 11:27 PM
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reply to post by jmdewey60
 


You know that was really good and I think I would agree with it .
.In the beginning God said let US make man in OUR image .Other seperate beings were with him ..........Jesus ..and the Holy Spirit ....
Otherwise he would have said I am going to make man in my image.
Also the bible says Jesus is the HEIR to the kingdom and he sits at the right hand of God in heaven .
How can you be sitting at the right hand of yourself ?
Not to mention Jesus spoke to the father when he was here.
The father son and holy spirit is really hard to explain .
although scripture tries to explain it we just cant grasp it sometimes .
Thanks jm I thought that was really good ...

(I usually try and explain it like a marriage situation where you do become one in mind and spirit with your spouse if you are truly in love)
Or I use the body blood and the water scriptures to explain it ...thats a better explanation really than the marriage situation ..

[edit on 10-9-2008 by Simplynoone]



posted on Sep, 11 2008 @ 02:15 AM
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To make it simple... Christ never said to worship him. He directed to pray to the Father in his name. Christ never says to pray to him directly. Neither is there direction to worship the Holy Ghost. There is a Trinity, so to speak, but only ONE we should be praying to and worshiping...God the Father.



posted on Sep, 11 2008 @ 09:08 AM
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reply to post by Simplynoone
 

I went to my first post on this thread, from back on 3-30-08.
Here is part of that post:

I realize there is an argument in favor of the trinity, but in my opinion, you have to add a lot of meaning into certain key words of the verses, to make the arguments work.

This is not exactly what I just did, in my latest post. I made a first attempt at getting toward the truth. It is, for me, a big move, to go in that direction. I decided it is better to come to a proper understanding of the Trinity than to just ignore it or say it does not exist.
I can compare it to the other big controversy that I get myself into, and that is the Sabbath. You can ignore Sunday worship or pretend there is no such thing. But to get at the truth of the whole subject, you have to acknowledge that people did, as Christians, worship on the morning of the first day of the week.
The trinity is there, in some form or another, in the earliest surviving literature available to us today. It is in the Bible. It may have been added as a postscript, "In the name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost." But it is there. Of course that does not mean that the formulated and codified version that we have now is correct. What I have to say right now, is that the alternative to a trinity is worse, if you go into a belief system that is fundamentally the killing of God. This is like crypto-paganism, to me. We have two gods dying. First to go is the god we would think of as the father god. That god ceases to exist, as an individual. A new god, the son god, comes into existence and once it gets to the point of being undeniably god, he dies. This is paganism, pure and simple. If we cry and mourn enough, the weight of the outpouring of the hearts of every living being who ever has or ever will exist, brings the dead god back to life.
The trinity, properly understood will counteract this pagan view of God. The operative word has to be "proper" and that is not the easy thing to do, if you consider the history of it.


[edit on 11-9-2008 by jmdewey60]



posted on Sep, 11 2008 @ 03:20 PM
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The example of a marriage is a good one, in fact Jesus in Mark 10 when speaking on the subject of divorce said that a man and woman joined in marriage are not two but one flesh. In God's eyes they are one unit.
Also thinking about the above thoughts, I would have to agree groups of three do appear in scripture, in fact Abraham was visited by three angels, a trio.
And certainly if the idea of a trinity could be found in scripture, it in no way resembles the doctrine held dear by so many.

I do not consider myself anti-trinitarian, but I really believe that if the Bible is the word of God then by means of it we can come to know God as he Himself reveals Himself to us.



posted on Sep, 11 2008 @ 03:33 PM
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reply to post by amergin
 



I am right there with you on this
And for sure everything in that word was written to be used as an example so its all gotta be in there ....



posted on Oct, 6 2008 @ 10:26 AM
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reply to post by LDragonFire
 


note that the doctrine of the trinity is diferent for each perso. i used to be very doubtful of the trinity and renounce it at one time simply because i did not understand it. It has been confused with many of the pagan ideas of 3 in one. I believe that they are each seperate "people" that arent individually God but all together make up our one God. The bible clearly sttates in many scriptures that there are more than one people that make up God but are not God individually.(although they are individual people)



posted on Oct, 6 2008 @ 11:34 AM
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Originally posted by lostinspace
reply to post by Hydroman
 


If you believe it hard enough you'll see ghosts. The consious mind projects for those who believe in the supernatural. People who don't believe in an after life don't see apparations. The same principle can be applied to UFO sightings.


LIS I tend to agree with your other points but inferring that all UFO sightings are visionary or ficticious is wrong.
Many unknown flying objects have been witnessed by trained professionals situated in separate locations;some people have also had their sworn eyewitness testimony validated by radar where objects have been captured,plotted and corellated travelling huge speeds (10,000 MPH +) and displaying unprecedented flight characteristics/aerial manouverability(such as executing right angle turns without slowing down or arriving at immediate stops from unheard of speeds).
The French Government´s Cometa report,the Disclosure project testimonies and the comprehensive work of John Greenewald Junior,Timothy Good,Richard Dolan and Bruce Maccabbee are good places to look.
Of course it is not unequivocable proof of anything but it does tell us that these unknown flying objects are not hallucinatory in nature and,as the former Canadian Defense minister Paul Hellyer is fond of saying:
"UFOs are as real as the aeroplanes that fly over your head".
The trouble is we do not know what UFOs or ´Anomalous Aerial Phenomena´is or are.
Cheers Karl

#Sorry to meander off the point regarding contradictions in the bible, I think its been shown by objective,impartial analysis that there are a great deal.
Also theres a great deal of mistranslation/misinterpretation-not to mention hypocritical advice.
Obviously some folks just like to cherrypick certain passages and wilfully ignore the rest but I think taken all together in context,it all seems very much man made to me.
Heres some related links:
home.earthlink.net...
www.youtube.com...
Interestingly the bible also never mentions the word Sunday,never refers to cats (but talks of speaking donkeys and fire breathing dragons)and most of the villans have red hair.



[edit on 02/10/08 by karl 12]



posted on Apr, 5 2009 @ 10:12 PM
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reply to post by helen670 there are times that i need to hear that and be reminded, well said
 



posted on Apr, 6 2009 @ 12:40 AM
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Originally posted by helen670
reply to post by agoodshot
 


Hi agoodshot!

You have quoted Scripture correctly, but some still do not understand the actual meaning of why God came in the form of a man....
Some believe that God is worshiped falsely as three Gods....this not true, but many have been very much misinformed to the actual meaning of Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

Did God need to do this?
No, He did not, but because man brought on Sin to the whole earth, man was needed to destroy sin ...
No man was found worthy to destroy sin, but God Himself.....

God took upon Himself to be the Suffering Messiah......as the Old Testament prophets foretold of His Crucifixion and sufferings.........


If God did as you say, why when he was suffering on the cross did he say "God, My God, why have you forsaken me?"

Was he schizophrenic? I think it's more likely that the mortals are supposed to think of the trinity to be as divine as God, but in the physical sense they are not one and the same.



[edit on 6-4-2009 by bronco73]



posted on Apr, 6 2009 @ 01:43 AM
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ok .. didn't read the whole thread so if this got mentioned sorry...but..

The Trinity is like water.. good ol' H2O

it comes in 3 forms.. liquid, vapor & solid...but the ESSENCE is still H2O.

God is the same, comes in 3 'forms',
God the Father,
God the Son
God the Holy Spirit

Regardless of the 'form' they take it's it's the ESSENCE that remains the same.

Scripture?? Sure, The trinity proven right out to of Matthew..


Then Jesus came from Galilee to John at the Jordan, to be given baptism by him.
Mat 3:14 But John would have kept him back, saying, It is I who have need of baptism from you, and do you come to me?
Mat 3:15 But Jesus made answer, saying to him, Let it be so now: because so it is right for us to make righteousness complete. Then he gave him baptism.
Mat 3:16 And Jesus, having been given baptism, straight away went up from the water; and, the heavens opening, he saw the Spirit of God coming down on him as a dove; Mat 3:17 And a voice came out of heaven, saying, This is my dearly loved Son, with whom I am well pleased.


Pretty clear to me. All 3 are 1 (one)




posted on Apr, 6 2009 @ 02:47 AM
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Originally posted by Komodo
ok .. didn't read the whole thread so if this got mentioned sorry...but..

The Trinity is like water.. good ol' H2O

it comes in 3 forms.. liquid, vapor & solid...but the ESSENCE is still H2O.

God is the same, comes in 3 'forms',
God the Father,
God the Son
God the Holy Spirit

Regardless of the 'form' they take it's it's the ESSENCE that remains the same.


true, but they are never liquid, solid and vapor at the same time. and just because you have three water molecules that are all h2o, it doesnt imply they are the same molecule just because they are the same.

its impossible to find a good illustration exactly because the trinity makes no sense.


Scripture?? Sure, The trinity proven right out to of Matthew..


Then Jesus came from Galilee to John at the Jordan, to be given baptism by him.
Mat 3:14 But John would have kept him back, saying, It is I who have need of baptism from you, and do you come to me?
Mat 3:15 But Jesus made answer, saying to him, Let it be so now: because so it is right for us to make righteousness complete. Then he gave him baptism.
Mat 3:16 And Jesus, having been given baptism, straight away went up from the water; and, the heavens opening, he saw the Spirit of God coming down on him as a dove; Mat 3:17 And a voice came out of heaven, saying, This is my dearly loved Son, with whom I am well pleased.


Pretty clear to me. All 3 are 1 (one)




how does this prove they are one?



posted on Apr, 6 2009 @ 04:29 AM
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Its only really contradictory if you dont understand it, its kind of like mind, body, and soul, they are 3 yet they are one.
Or less eloquently than my saying, "its like water, it can be solid, liquid, and gas, but its all the same" which I believe was from the guy in the movie Religulous.

And different sections of christianity believe different things, some believe God is the creator, jesus his literal son, the spirit his soul and the power it brings people. Others believe God is the creator, Jesus his mortal incarnation. Etc etc there are differences, hence why the Irish civil war, catholic vs protestant, they dont all believe in the same things.



posted on Apr, 6 2009 @ 07:56 AM
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Originally posted by Ridhya
Its only really contradictory if you dont understand it, its kind of like mind, body, and soul, they are 3 yet they are one.
Or less eloquently than my saying, "its like water, it can be solid, liquid, and gas, but its all the same" which I believe was from the guy in the movie Religulous.


mind body and soul are components of the same being. not 3 people who are also one.

for proof, take away one and see what happens. cant the mind operate with out the physical brain? can the body operate without the soul?

its like tha processor, motherboard and electricity. they are all components of a computer. take one away and you dont have 2 computers. you have parts.

the father, the son, and the holy spirit are not components. they are separate things. this how the scripture of matthew quoted before can make sense. jesus was receiving holy spirit while his father was talking about him.

why would jesus receive himself? moreover, if it was himself he was recieving, why would he need to receive something he already had.

if jesus and god were the same person, why refer to jesus as "beloved son". doesnt the title of son refer to a separate individual?

if jesus is god, then why would he have to be approved by god? wouldnt that not only be self evident, but also unnecessary?

the passage quoted actually proves they are separate entities



posted on Apr, 6 2009 @ 08:40 AM
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reply to post by LDragonFire
 



this was to be my reply..before I Read the last three posts...
okay..kind of like water....which is odd, considering Jesus told us we had to be born again...which involves baptism, in water...in the same Respect God is like Water.....water can exist in 3 different forms..Solid, Liquid, Gas...however, its still water, its still H20, its still one thing..water..in the same Respect God...can exist in 3 different forms...God the father the solid, the supreme being in heaven. God the word, Jesus, in human form on earth..liquid. Holy Spirit..in spirit form to dwell with men, and to be in the hearts of man..Gas. (please no puns here) ...so if something so simple as water can exist in 3 different states..but still be the same thing...why in the world would it be so hard to understand that God is still the same in three different states as well?

But then I read this...and I just had to comment..because it truly made no sense whatsoever:

"true, but they are never liquid, solid and vapor at the same time. and just because you have three water molecules that are all h2o, it doesnt imply they are the same molecule just because they are the same. "

it doesn't imply they are the same molecule just because they are all the same? huh? that doesn't even make sense..in fact..it sounds like your just talking yourself in circle trying to defend your logic...water is water..you add another molecule to it, or take one away..and its not water...but molecules don't get added or taken away when water changes its components...like when water turns to ice..solid..it doesn't become another molecule, when it turns to gas..it does not become another molecule..or else, it would not at that point be H20 in gas form..it would be another substance in gas form...so yes...it does mean they are the same just in different states..so not sure what science class you took in high school..but you may need to go back.

and no..they are never liquid, solid, and gas all at the same time(although, you could take an icecube out and lay it on your counter just to see how it begins to lay in its own liquid while the ice being in warmer air at the same time begins to turn to gas, and you get pretty close)..but all those three are all water at the same time...so in an essence never seperated...they may exist in different states..but still the same. But ultimately what everyone is forgetting here..is God...you have God, and you either believe in him or you don't ....if you do..then you have the belief that there is God..this supreme being..who created every single thing around us, in us, and above us, and I'm sorry, but if I have a God who created the universe, and planets, if I believe that, then I would have no problem believing that he can exist in 3 different states at different or same times. If you don't believe in God..then no, it would not make sense to you, because when you have the supernatural that negates all questions, when you have the supernatural it means, anything is possible..he's GOD, he created the entire being, if he can do that, he can do anything. If he created that, then something to consider..science didn't exist at all until creation began, just because we found that science doesn't mean the creator doesn't exist....to sit here and say, we are so great that we know all, we are so smart that we know there is nothing bigger than us out there, when seeing the size of us in relativity to the entire universe..to say we know all, and we know for a fact that we are here by accident..to me thats kind of like a bunch of ants laughing at another bunch of ants for saying there are humans outside.

[edit on 6-4-2009 by coleyk]

[edit on 6-4-2009 by coleyk]



posted on Apr, 6 2009 @ 08:45 AM
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My issue with the Trinity is not about a lack of understanding, its about Jesus Christ coming to Earth To Teach, and the Trinity was not one of the topics. But the same type of practice was very much alive before during and after Christ in Paganism.

So is it from Christ [I say No] or is it from man? The corruption of Christ teachings started immediately after his assent into Heaven and continues to this day, it is as it states in the Bible, many will come in my name but not be of Christ. Christianity has been perverted time and time again and the Trinity is one of the more easily seen attempts.

So in the end do you believe in Christ? and his teachings

Or do you believe in the POPE that introduced the Trinity into Canon Law?

It is this simple.



posted on Apr, 6 2009 @ 10:22 AM
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In Hinduism, the various Gods are understood to be simply different manifestations of a single supreme being, yet Christians call them polytheistic.

In Christianity, the trinity is understood to be simply three different manifestations of a single supreme being, yet Christians call it monotheistic.

Are Christians living by dual standards?

"How seldom we weigh our neighbor with the same balance as ourselves."
-Thomas A Kempis



posted on Apr, 6 2009 @ 10:49 AM
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Originally posted by coleyk
\and no..they are never liquid, solid, and gas all at the same time(although, you could take an icecube out and lay it on your counter just to see how it begins to lay in its own liquid while the ice being in warmer air at the same time begins to turn to gas, and you get pretty close)..but all those three are all water at the same time...so in an essence never seperated...they may exist in different states..but still the same.


exactly my point. so if water cant be a liquid, solid, and vapor at the same time, then why is it used to describe the trinity?

the trinity is probably the most incoherent doctrine that a christian can follow.

its 3 different people, yet they arent 3, but actually one. but not just one, but 3... head spinning yet?

and yet, nowhere does this bible show this confusion. the apostles never seemed to be confused by the relationship jesus had with his father. instead the readdily noted jesus praying to god, being "obedient" to god, jesus saying that god was greater than him, etc etc.

no wonder critics attack the christian faith. once christians start teaching things that are not in the bible, things become confusing and full of contradiction.


I'm sorry, but if I have a God who created the universe, and planets, if I believe that, then I would have no problem believing that he can exist in 3 different states at different or same times.


its not a question of possibility. im completely sure god is capable of paradoxes. its a question of why. why would god create a paradox?

the bible never talks about the trinity. yes, it mentions the three together, but it never asserts that they are one.

even if god was a trinity, why would god call his second part "son", which obviously creates even more confusion. god jesus wouldnt not be a son, as technically he always existed and is also equal to god. so why use a term to describe progeny when its obvious its not?

my point is, its confusion for nothing. just for the sake of being confusing.



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