A contradiction in the bible

reply to post by LDragonFire


You are treating this as a one way street. You are acting as if I and my faith should be blamed for evil leaders in the past, but you shouldn't. I would never blame you to begin with, but you seem to want to. And now you are treating those evil leaders as something linked to the bible. The bible was never reformed remember that though. It was written at different times. It is not one book, but several dozen by many authors. Each with their own world view and ways to treat the world. There are books their 1000 years separated by writing times, showing the corrupt past, and the modernization. You must, as I've said loads of times, use common sense to sort through it. Can you please tell me how you WEREN'T expecting contradictions if they were written by totally different people, influenced by totally different things, and calling what is God and his message totally different things? The only true word of God is that which came directly from Jesus, which is what the entire religion is about. sure it's also in the bible, but mainly Jesus. Why do you think it is called Christianity, and not Bibleanity?

[edit on 6-10-2007 by Gorman91]

Originally posted by MajorMalfunction
Russia wasn't about atheism, it was about fundamentalism. Totalitarian regimes, even atheist ones, are fundamentalist regimes -- in the case of Russia, religion was changed from mostly Christian and Jewish to worship of the state.

So can we stop with this stupid argument about atheists killing Russians? That was not the motivation for the pogroms, it was an excuse.

The Crusades, however, were about religion.

That is the difference.

Atheism was a tool of Stalin, it wasn't what he was fighting for. And it was not true atheism, it was state worship -- statolatry.

Straw man argument. Is not relevant. Please stop saying it because it's not a valid point.

Good, and so is the same with Christianity. Modern Christianity is not the same as the past one. Just so, past corrupt Communism is not the same as modern Atheism. Will you stop trying to make a black and white chicken egg look like it came from a different species.

[edit on 6-10-2007 by Gorman91]

To further this argument, yes atheism was a tool of Stalin, just as religion was a tool of the elitists on the crusades. You actually think the crusades were completely for religious reasons? That's like saying the Iraq war was to find WMDs! The Pope was in Italy, and the Italians, at the time, often bought Papacies, kind of like the business men buying the president. To make an analogy to modern times, rather then want oil, they just wanted the silk road area. Why do you think they also attacked Constantinople? It was mainly economical. This whole "protect the pilgrims!" argument of the religious leaders is exactly like Bush saying "Iraq has nukes, and we need to stop them". It was all just to get the people worked up to follow along like sheep.

[edit on 6-10-2007 by Gorman91]

Originally posted by LDragonFire
1. You shall have no other gods before Me

The first commandment is simple in its wording; there can be no other explanations for what is said or what it means. Yet modern Christianity does not practice monotheism in a pure form. Christianity teaches and preaches the Trinity The belief that the Father[1] the Son[2] and the Holy Spirit[3] are of one God.

I was raised catholic, although I do not consider myself one now (I do not consider myself any particular religion, call it non-denomination), I will say:

They believe the trinity "symbolic" to be ONE being, but in several (3) forms. The trinity is for symbolism... not three different gods which would be as crazy as you say! They say god "revealed" himself to us in three "forms", not entities. So he has revealed himself 'by' the father, 'through' the son, and 'as' the holy spirit. This is why its not as totally wrong as you say. You see, most people misunderstand this, and get confused because they lack a certain understanding of its symbolism. "Understand a religions symbols, and you understand its roots and meaning."

Do I think this is correct? Do I believe in it? I will not comment, I just wished to say this so everyone can have a clear understanding of the trinity with proper knowledge now. Now that you posses this knowledge, then debate having correct information.

"In the name of the Father, son, holy spirit, AMEN." No just catholics do the sign of the cross. I do it and pray while I'm driving (my diesel), because it can keep you safe and keep your mind focused.

Once I was driving and my cell rang, I threw it out the window in my neighborhood only to grab its broken pieces later. Haven't owned or needed a cell since. I despise people who use it while driving. I saw some blond today using speaker phone, WITH IT IN HER HAND. How stupid must you be? Set it on the dash or something.... Christ help them!

[edit on 7-10-2007 by 1337cshacker]

reply to post by 1337cshacker


As stated in this thread the trinity did not become doctrine until the 3rd century hundreds of years After the death of Christ and his disciples. If this was important to Christ you would think that he would have made a point for this belief in his time, not hundreds of years later.

It may not have been Doctrine but the Trinity has existed since Genesis 3:24 "So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life." The Sword is The Spirit of God, His Word is his Sword.

Originally posted by Raphael
It may not have been Doctrine but the Trinity has existed since Genesis 3:24 "So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life." The Sword is The Spirit of God, His Word is his Sword.

Interesting that he didn't just say The Father The Son and The Holy Spirit. This is your interpretations doesn't mean its fact.

reply to post by LDragonFire


Just because it was not doctrine, doesn't mean it isn't true. Doctrines are made all the time, mainly to strengthen the religion from heresies. If the people already understand it as true, there is no reason to declare it, but if a heresy pops up, then it must be declared

Here, right from wikipedia:

Most of them make no sense, so I'll get the ones that actually make sense to common folk like I.

Matthew 28:19: "Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit" (see Trinitarian formula).

2 Corinthians 13:14: "The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with all of you."

1 John 5:7–8: "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one." (This is the controversial Comma Johanneum, which did not appear in Greek texts before the sixteenth century.)

John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." together with John 1:14 "The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth." and John 1:18 "No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only, who is at the Father's side, has made him known."[16]The Bible says "God the One and Only" in NIV.

John 8:23–24: "But he continued,'You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world. I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am [the one I claim to be], you will indeed die in your sins.'"

(Makes Jesus sound like and alien /\ )

John 8:58 "I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!"[17]


Like you, I believe the "trinity" came about to get more pagans to join. But well before this, it was understood amongst the members.

Originally posted by Raphael
It may not have been Doctrine but the Trinity has existed since Genesis 3:24 "So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life." The Sword is The Spirit of God, His Word is his Sword.

Originally posted by LDragonFire
Interesting that he didn't just say The Father The Son and The Holy Spirit. This is your interpretations doesn't mean its fact.

No.. This is not Interpretation.. but since I HAVE been with God AND The Holy Spirit I DO KNOW The Spirit and IT DID speak through me, I understand how it operates, as God is my witness. If you do not repent with all of your heart and be saved, The Truth will pierce you like a sword.

You come to me out of anger, I care about you and every one of you. Learn the truth so that you may refind faith, Your light does not shine, you remain separated from the most high. You must practice through good works, repent with all of your heart so that your heart may be filled with God's love, so that he may know you as he has known me.


[edit on 8-10-2007 by Raphael]

reply to post by Raphael


On a more literal and less spiritual level, I must be forced to say what i said earlier. Doctrine doesn't = final authority. Doctrines are only made in times of heresies. No heresy, no doctrine. It isn't doctrine that there is a hell, yet we believe there is.

Response to Ldragonfire...first of all you state something you haven't studied and therefore should leave comment to someone knoledgeable in the field...In the very first book of bible,Genesis,,,the first vs. uses the name Elohim..In the beginning, God,, Elohim is a uniplural noun..indicating one God but plural in his essence(nature). There is no contradiction, you need to put the context in its original language.

reply to post by gulliblestravel


WOW, even I didn't know that one, nice find.

Originally posted by gulliblestravel
Response to Ldragonfire...first of all you state something you haven't studied and therefore should leave comment to someone knoledgeable in the field...In the very first book of bible,Genesis,,,the first vs. uses the name Elohim..In the beginning, God,, Elohim is a uniplural noun..indicating one God but plural in his essence(nature). There is no contradiction, you need to put the context in its original language.

Interesting, but also incorrect.
At Genesis 1:1 the title “God” is translated from ’Elo·him′, which is plural in Hebrew.

Trinitarians construe this to be an indication of the Trinity. They also explain Deuteronomy 6:4 to imply the unity of members of the Trinity when it says, “The LORD our God [from ’Elo·him′] is one LORD.”

The plural form of the noun here in Hebrew is the plural of majesty or excellence. (See NAB, St. Joseph Edition, Bible Dictionary, p. 330; also, New Catholic Encyclopedia, 1967, Vol. V, p. 287.) It conveys no thought of plurality of persons within a godhead.

In similar fashion, at Judges 16:23 when reference is made to the false god Dagon, a form of the title ’elo·him′ is used; the accompanying verb is singular, showing that reference is to just the one god. At Genesis 42:30, Joseph is spoken of as the “lord” (’adho·neh′, the plural of excellence) of Egypt.

Consider also these statements:

"The fanciful idea that Elohim referred to the Trinity of persons in the Godhead hardly finds now a supporter among scholars. It is either what the grammarians call the plural of majesty, or it denotes the fullness of divine strength, the sum of the powers displayed by God" (William Smith, A Dictionary of the Bible, ed. Peloubet, MacDonald Pub. Co., 1948, p. 220).

"Elohim must rather be explained as an intensive plural, denoting greatness and majesty" (The American Journal of Semitic Language and Literature, 1905, Vol. XXI, p. 208).

"Early dogmaticians were of the opinion that so essential a doctrine as that of the Trinity could not have been unknown to the men of the Old Testament…No modern theologian...can longer maintain such a view. Only an inaccurate exegesis which overlooks the more immediate grounds of interpretation can see references to the Trinity in the plural form of the divine name Elohim, the use of the plural in Genesis 1:26 or such liturgical phrases as three members of the Aaronic blessing of Numbers 6:24-26 and the Trisagion of Isaiah 6:3" (The New Schaff-Herzog Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge, Vol. 12, p. 18).

"The plural form of the name of God, elohim, in the Hebrew Scriptures has often been adduced as proof of the plurality of persons in the Godhead…Such use of Scripture will not be likely to advance the interests of truth, or be profitable for doctrine…The plural of elohim may just as well designate a multiplicity of divine potentialities in the deity as three personal distinctions, or it may be explained as the plural of majesty and excellency. Such forms of expression are susceptible of too many explanations to be used as valid proof texts of the Trinity" (Milton Terry, Biblical Hermeneutics, p. 587).

Clearly no one who is well informed would use the word Elohim to support the trinity doctrine. This should help all to consider the context in the original language.

Very funny --- you say WE throw Bible verses around??? I believe that is how this thread began, which was started by a non-believer.

Yes, the Bible seems to have contradictions ... that is why I rely on the Holy Spirit to lead me as I read. It is amazing to read the same words in the Bible at different times and learn completely different things, which was needed that day.

By the way, for the record, God the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are One, not three separate. Jesus and the Holy Spirit are two parts of the whole. Afterall, the body is made up of many parts. It's one body, but with separate parts. The lungs, the heart, the brain ... they are part of one, but can be classified and separated from the whole.

I know this is something you've heard before and have chosen not to believe. My goal is not to get you to "our side," but to give my opinion, just as you have, based on the truth as I know it.

You can trust the science you read in a text book that may or may not have been proven, but it's funny how you refuse to trust the Word of God that has outlasted most scientific studies.

Hi/

On the Divinity of Jesus Christ....
''In the words of the Apostle Paul, "(Christ) being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God,
but made Himself of no reputation,
and took upon him the form of a servant" (Philippians 2:6-7).

This voluntary self-abasement of the Messiah is thus described by the prophet Isaiah: "He hath no form nor comeliness,
and when we shall see Him,
there is no beauty that we should desire Him.
He is despised and rejected of men, a Man of sorrows and acquainted with grief … and we esteemed Him not.
Surely He hath borne our griefs and carried our sorrows; yet we esteemed Him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
But He was wounded for our transgressions; He was bruised for our iniquities.
The chastisement of our peace was upon Him, and with His stripes we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned everyone to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on Him the iniquity of us all.
He was oppressed, and He was afflicted, yet He opened not His mouth … He was taken from prison and from judgment; and who shall declare His generation?" (Isaiah 53:2-8).

Divinity of Christ
And further more we have......

For instance when the Jews asked Him "who art Thou?", Jesus replied "Even the same that I said unto you from the beginning" (John 8:25).
Shortly after this He added: "Verily, verily I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM" (John 8:58).
Here it must be noted that Jesus had not said "I was," as would have been grammatically correct in the context,
but rather used the present tense "I am," or more exactly,
"I am He who is."
The deep meaning of these words becomes clear when one considers the Hebrew original meaning.
Here.......When Moses asked God's name at the burning bush,
the Lord answered: "I am He who is" (YHWH).
The very name "He who is" (YHWH) indicates the distinguishing characteristic of God.
He is the One who always exists; He is the Eternal One. In referring to Himself as "He who is" (YHWH),

Read more on the Divinity of Jesus Christ at the above web page I listed.

helen

Originally posted by helen670

For instance when the Jews asked Him "who art Thou?", Jesus replied "Even the same that I said unto you from the beginning" (John 8:25).
Shortly after this He added: "Verily, verily I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM" (John 8:58).
Here it must be noted that Jesus had not said "I was," as would have been grammatically correct in the context,
but rather used the present tense "I am," or more exactly,
"I am He who is."
The deep meaning of these words becomes clear when one considers the Hebrew original meaning.
Here.......When Moses asked God's name at the burning bush,
the Lord answered: "I am He who is" (YHWH).
The very name "He who is" (YHWH) indicates the distinguishing characteristic of God.
He is the One who always exists; He is the Eternal One. In referring to Himself as "He who is" (YHWH),

It might be useful for you to consider how other translations have rendered this passage.
AT JOHN 8:58 a number of translations, for instance The Jerusalem Bible, have Jesus saying: “Before Abraham ever was, I Am.” Was Jesus there teaching, as Trinitarians assert, that he was known by the title “I Am”? And, as they claim, does this mean that he was Jehovah of the Hebrew Scriptures, since the King James Version at Exodus 3:14 states: “God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM”?

At Exodus 3:14 (KJ) the phrase “I AM” is used as a title for God to indicate that he really existed and would do what he promised. The Pentateuch and Haftorahs, edited by Dr. J. H. Hertz, says of the phrase: “To the Israelites in bondage, the meaning would be, ‘Although He has not yet displayed His power towards you, He will do so; He is eternal and will certainly redeem you.’ Most moderns follow Rashi [a French Bible and Talmud commentator] in rendering [Exodus 3:14] ‘I will be what I will be.’”

The expression at John 8:58 is quite different from the one used at Exodus 3:14. Jesus did not use it as a name or a title but as a means of explaining his prehuman existence. Hence, note how some other Bible versions render John 8:58:

1869: “From before Abraham was, I have been.” The New Testament, by G. R. Noyes.

1935: “I existed before Abraham was born!” The Bible—An American Translation, by J. M. P. Smith and E. J. Goodspeed.

1965: “Before Abraham was born, I was already the one that I am.” Das Neue Testament, by Jörg Zink.

1981: “I was alive before Abraham was born!” The Simple English Bible.

1984: “Before Abraham came into existence, I have been.” New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures.

Thus, the real thought of the Greek used here is that God’s created “firstborn,” Jesus, had existed long before Abraham was born.—Colossians 1:15; Proverbs 8:22, 23, 30; Revelation 3:14.

Why the different rendering? Context my friend.

Again, the context shows this to be the correct understanding. This time the Jews wanted to stone Jesus for claiming to “have seen Abraham” although, as they said, he was not yet 50 years old. (Verse 57) Jesus’ natural response was to tell the truth about his age. So he naturally told them that he “was alive before Abraham was born!”—The Simple English Bible.

Trinity = the Father + the Son + the Holy Spirit.

That means if one dies and be sent to the paradise, he will never see three gods there ,only one god with three status. That's the Trinity,the God your Lord.

So The contradiction is gone.

[edit on 9-10-2007 by nanoha]

reply to post by nanoha


Precisely. As I've said SOOOO many times before, it's quantum thinking. One thing can be multiple things at once.

Originally posted by Gorman91
reply to post by Raphael

 

On a more literal and less spiritual level, I must be forced to say what i said earlier. Doctrine doesn't = final authority. Doctrines are only made in times of heresies. No heresy, no doctrine. It isn't doctrine that there is a hell, yet we believe there is.

Doctrine doesn't = final authority but The Word of God DOES!

The Spirit of God spoke through me and I am not falsifying writings on a piece of paper but giving you my divine inspiration. The Spirit of God is his word. Anyone who enters the Spirit receives the Word of God which is his law and THE TRUTH. I am not talking with authority based on the teaching of a piece of paper made by humans. THE SPIRIT OF GOD which is THE ONLY REAL truth is the only way to understanding.

Don't you understand the Spirit of God can descend on man and give him the Law as Moses received it? Do you not realize The Word which has been miswritten over centuries was inspired by the actual Word of God which lies in HIS SPIRIT not in imagination..... The Spirit is Truth and when you enter the Spirit you will be naked because you cannot hide anything. You may only live in Truth if you wish to be in the Spirit as I have. When the Spirit of God descended upon me I heard rushing water, and it was soothing. The Lord's Law is given to all who seek in truth through HIS WORD which is HIS Spirit and HIS SWORD. God will write his law on the hearts of his children who he has known in truth and they will love him with all their heart and he will love them. Anyone who seeks The Lord in Truth will receive his spirit and shall receive a seal which will protect you through the harvest of the Lord.


[edit on 10-10-2007 by Raphael]

reply to post by Raphael


God is great, yes I know. I pray every night to him, and there is little that will rip me away from my faith, but ATS isn't the place to be preaching. (even though that completely contradicts 25% of my posts )

[edit on 10-10-2007 by Gorman91]

Originally posted by TheRepublic
the trinity is just a re packaging of the pagan mysetery religion belief of

the father, the mother, and the child(future, path, growth) whatever

it is not in many of the original documents, it was put in there.

The pagan trinity is not the father, the mother and the child. Its the maiden, the mother and the crone all three of them are in the bible. The maiden and the mother are both represented by the virgin Mary and the crone was turned in to the witch.

A belief in the Trinity robs Christ of the glory due him for what He did for us.

Additionally...

The hourglass is nearly empty. The Great Tribulation has begun and Armageddon looms in the very near future. There are a total of TWO things that you need in order to obtain Eternal Life and Man-Made Religion is not one of them. (1) An Acceptance of Christ as Lord and Savior. (2) A Good Heart Condition.

We urge those who wish to obtain Eternal Life in Christ's Kingdom to read the following very important message. We don’t aim to twist arms or convince anyone of anything they aren’t ready or willing to believe as their hearts will ultimately dictate what they perceive to be truth. However, it is also our responsibility to warn those who do not accept this Truth, will face Judgment at Armageddon. For this reason we pray that the eyes and hearts of all who read our message are opened to the Truth whether that is now, or in the near future when our words come to pass.

The Kingdom Message of Salvation is the Truth and validity of the Bible as a whole. As ministers with the Light of Life Ministry, we are doing as we are commanded within the Scriptures. Because we have been enlightened to the Truth, we have a heavy responsibility to pursue our Ministries. 1 Corinthians 9:16 warns of the necessity and woe to those that do not declare the Good News.

"For if I preach the gospel, I have no reason to boast, because an obligation is placed on me. And woe to me if I do not preach the gospel!"

This is because once we have acquired Wisdom about the Truth, it is our duty to spread the message as far as we can over all of creation. If we fail to warn others, the Creator holds us accountable. To walk away is to be overshadowed with negativity. Ezekiel 3:17-18 gives insight on this.

"Son of man, I have made you a watchman over the house of Israel. When you hear a word from My mouth, give them a warning from Me. If I say to the wicked person: You will surely die, but you do not warn him—you don't speak out to warn him about his wicked way in order to save his life—that wicked person will die for his iniquity. Yet I will hold you responsible for his blood.”

To view more information, visit: Light of Life Ministry