Double Post

[edit on 10/3/2007 by infinityoreilly]

The ' highjackers ' would have to perform superhuman feats to pull a perfect four times off instantly. The highjackers could not wait until luck gave them a chance at an open cockpit, and if they did grab a crew member , it would NOT affect the instincts of the pilots: To roll the plane or get the highjacker off his feet until the passengers could subdue them. They would NOT give up the plane just because someone in the back was being killed. That is MORE reason to keep control and send a Mayday.

But can anyone accept the odds of not ONE pilot among EIGHT not being able to even key a mike and send a message to ATC? What are the odds? It only takes a second to key the mike, and even under the most generous assumptions about the highjackers abilities to use small blades effectively, there would have been PLENTY of time to key a mike: In the case of Flt. 93, Cleveland Center was speaking to the pilot, and about 2-3 SECONDS later, there was no response. In the space of 2-3 seconds could the highjackers have managed to : Breach the cockpit. kill or disable BOTH struggling pilots, haul their bodies out of the cramped space, and assume the controls. Do you really believe that they could accomplish all that in just a second or two, AND IN ALL FOUR CASES? Do you?

If so you are in a state of morbid and chronic denial, that is the only thing that can account for someone teking odds like that serioulsy. No reasonable approach can find a way to allow for all FOUR cockpits to be found open at exactly the right times, and for all eight pilots to be able to be killed and or disabled INSTANTLY, before even ONE could key a mike. That is beyond belief. No one has addresed those points yet, and no wonder.

How can anyone see a scenario in which all EIGHT pilots are overwhelmed so fast that not even ONE radio call could be made, no alert sent from any of the transponders, nothing. Dead air. Instantly. there is ONLY one way that all these facts fit, and that is with remote taking. No other scenario makes any sense given the ' inexpliacable anomalies ' associated with this event, factors that CANNOt be attributed to LUCK or heavy weapons or any other LIKELY scenario.

No, there is only one answer, remote highjacking. Otherwise, please explain accepting odds so long that they are beyond silly. Tell us HOW all eight pilots were incapacitated INSTANTLY given the official story and the ' boxcutters ' as the only official weapons alleged to have been present, even though 9 or the 19 ' highjackers ' were cheaked closely before boarding and likley had NOTHING at all on them. They were patsies and fall guys anyway, and as disposable as the 300 people in NY; the Neocon murderers that pulled this off have no mercy and no shame, and no fear of being brought before the bar of justice; they are confident that by owning the media and by subverting the rule of law they can escape rich and free from their heinous crimes. They probably will.

After all, as long as Americans will swallow odds like these, they don't have a lot to worry about, do they?

Ahum.

There is one report from one plane, from a flight attendant, that the pilots were gathered with them in the back of the plane.
If I'm not mistaken, that was flight 93.

Or was it Betty Ong in one of the WTC planes?

[edit on 4/10/07 by LaBTop]

Well, I'm going to take a shot at this one. First of all, lets use our heads here for a moment. Why is it that the majority CT's seem to regard a set of box cutters as a harmless weapon of some sort? We're essentially talking a pretty good sized razor blade affixed to a steel hand grip. Smart money says those things were razor sharp just for such an occasion as hijacking an airplane (let alone modified to some extent to be even more lethal.) In other words; a lethal weapon in the hands of anybody with not only zero regard to murder others, but themselves on top of it all.

Those things were the equivalent really of carrying a straight razor onto that airplane. I don't know about any of you, but I would much rather face somebody with a blunt force instrument in their hands (even a switchblade) than I would a straight razor. That's a slashing weapon! A few quick arm movements and a persons ear is literally not there anymore. That is just further proof really of the simple lack of common sense here when attempting to locate your 'smoking gun' and dismiss the obvious.

So you folks out there that think a razor sharp box cutter being yielded around in the hands of a fanatical extremist, one who is pumped up on adrenalin getting ready for 'Jihad' at eight in the morning while you are calm and relaxed, getting comfortable in your seat, your attention focused on dumping your creamer in your coffee -- think again!

How hard would it be to get those pilots to comply?

To get them walking on all fours pretending to be puppies up and down the aisles of that airplane if they were ordered to?

Give me a break!

Those guys jumped up and slit throats. Believe it or not, even most of you 'above top secret' hero's would have sat there frozen in your own puddles at the sight of that early n your morning flight without warning. Plus, what do we all become at this point of the hijacking conspiracy theorists? We all become hostages from that moment forward. Here's what I would do (and I'm sure they did too) -- I'd grab one of those attractive looking flight stewardesses, hold the razor sharp box cutter to her throat and order those pilots out of their seats asap. You don't think those guys are going to comply? Here I am, my arm dripping blood from the last passengers throat that I slit in a matter of seconds, while I threaten to slit another and demanding you out of your seat.

That's your scenario and a pretty convincing one to get anybody on that plane to comply with any demand really. Wouldn't you all tend to agree? You have to think also, these pilots aren't thinking there going to end up in the sky lobby of the WTC; they're thinking 'hijacking' i.e. meet our demands or the hostages die, one every hour until those demands are met once they touch down somewhere.

That's what those pilots were thinking. Comply with these guys and be as calm and polite as possible about it all to spare anymore violence or death.

Makes a lot more sense to me than flying these people off to Cleveland, then sweeping them all under some gigantic rug while the remote control airplanes are fueled up ready to be piloted by some agent with a play station controller.

First, the tapes were PHONY transmissions sent to give the appearance of radio signals being sent, and to confirm that highjackers were real. NO radio transmissions from ANY planes were recorded. After the remote taking, the phony tape was played to make the ATC think that a highjacking was likley, thus reinforcing the official lie. The tapes are of an alleged ' higfhjacker ' NOT the pilots, saying something that was supposed to be said to the passengers and NOT the ATC...we are asked to believe that the ' highjackers ' did not know the difference between the handset for speaking to the passengers, and the mike used for talking to ATC, BUT they had all the OTHER skills needed to unerringly guide the planes to their destinations, right? Sure.

As for the poster who thinks that a few guys with boxcutters could simply slash a few people and get the pilots to open up and roll over and die willingly, that is nonsense. You STILL have NOT told us HOW four sets of ' highjackers ' could have invaded FOUR cockpits INSTANTLY. Until someone tells us how four sets of highjackers could INSTANTLY take over four jets out of four without even ONE pilot being able to key a mike, we can believe that it was remote all the way.

I do not care HOW determined a person is, they still have to get thru cockpit doors, slash two pilots to death ( times 4 ), haul their bodies out of a very cramped area,slick with blood, assume controls..all in 2-3 SECONDS. Tell us HOW please. I am waiting. Even IF the highjackers had ALL factors working in their favor, to believe that in all FOUR cases, there was an INSTANTANEOUS takeover in all four cases begs belief. No way.

If people saw others being slashed, many of the men would have assumed that they were next and fought; supposedly the Flt. 93 passengers were willing to sacrifice their lives to ' rush ' a cockpit; why not then attack at the beginning, when the highjackers were still trying to gain access to the front? And, even if they did get the cockpit doors open somehow, we still have two determined and able pilots in each plane to deal with; to believe that these pilots could be slashed to death before they could key a mike is silly, just nonsense.

Al FOUR planes SHOULD have sent either voice messages when the cockpit assaults began, or keyed the transponder alert. NO WAY should all four planes be taken INSTANTLY. Not QUICKLY, but INSTANTLY. What does that tell you? The ONLY way to INSTANTLY take over a plane is by remote control. Any oither way leaves too much time for radio transmissions, and so the perps could NOT risk the pilots being able to talk...we could not have recordings of them saying : " Hey, the controls are not responding any more!! Something has taken control!!". NO radio was allowed, EXCEPT for the staged and phony transmission that is discussed above, where the perps set up a tape that made it sound like a higfhjack was underway. That reinforces the lie.

HOW could all four sets of ' highjackers ' get lucky enough to : Find all four cockpit doors open ( if any of them had been shut, as per regs, there would have been AMPLE time to send a message by radio or squawk the transponder), then find pilots willing to give up their seats willingly ( impossible ) or be slashed with boxcutters until they were disabled...THEN haul their bodies out of the cockpits and stowed aft, and THEN assume the seats and controls. And, all of the above had to happen INSTANTLY !!! All four times!! Instantly!! Imagine that!

The people who are safe do NOT give up their safety, no matter what. Armored car guards do NOT open the back up when the driver is grabbed and a gun put to his head..even if the robbers were to torture the poor slob, the guy in the back would watch and wait for help, but he would NEVER open up and give up the prize as well as place himself in jeopardy, believe me, I have been there. No, the pilots would have fought to the death to keep their planes, and no highjackers with small blades could possible convince a pilot to open up for them, no matter HOW many people were getting slaughtered in the back.

Imagine a room full of people, men fully capable of offensive actions, and some women, being raided by some punks with small blades, are you telling me that the entire room full of people wopuld sit back and watch as their fellows were being killed by these maniacs? No one would rush the bad guys and disable them to save each others lives? No way, that would not happen. The men involved would have quickly gotten together and acted to stop themn; that is the most likley scenario. But we are asked to believe that punks with boxcutters were able to invade four cockpits with 100% success, kill at their whim, and meet NO resistance..except for the phony story of Flt 93 and the supposed' assault ' on the cockpit.

Think about this: If two or three bad guys could disable and kill and haul the pilots out with NO trouble, why would a whole team of passengers be unable to take a few highjackers out? Are these Saudis supermen or something? A whole group of men and women could not do anything except take orders and die like sheep? Give it a rest..there is NO WAY possible that the official story could be true, no way. To believe that the pilots would have been so easy to take and remove, INSTANTLY , is beyond belief. Tell us please how long it would take to remove both pilots from the cramped cockpit area..how long to slash two pilots to death...AND add the FACT that not ONE plane showed any signs of distress, like rolling or pitching or swerving..the FIRST thing that would have happened in a cockpit breach.

The first thing that pilots would do is what did NOT happen, and the LEAST likley scenario is the one we are asked to swallow. No one has yet explained in detail how anyone could take the planes, all four of them, INSTANTLY, with total success. You have to get down to the nitty gritty, the fine details, and that is where the story falls apart for the official lie believers. You have to examine the take overs in minute detail to see the ridiculous odds involved. HOW did they gain access to the cockpits instantly, and slash the pilots throats instantly, and haul their bodies out, instantly, and assume the controls, instantly.

Lets hear about how that all could be likley or possible, if you can. For me, it is crystal clear, there is NO explanation other than remote taking that explains all these incongruous facts we see in this event.

Good thread eyewitness. I never really thought about this particular aspect before, but because the inconsistencies and improbabilities are so many, it's no surprise that I didn't catch it.

Just another nail in the official story's coffin. We need a freakin' nail gun to keep up. We've already gone around the edge, now we're just making pretty little shapes in the middle.

I have a question for John Lear: Take the example the poster above gave about a "terrorist" holding a knife up to the flight attendant's neck and threatening to kill her if you don't give up the cockpit. What would you have done and is there an unwritten rule among pilots to never give up the plane in such an event?

Peace

Edit: They like to be called "flight attendants" now. Don't want to disrespect.

[edit on 4-10-2007 by Dr Love]

Let's start with this (in reply to 'eyewitness') --

"I do not care HOW determined a person is, they still have to get thru cockpit doors, slash two pilots to death...."

How hard is it really to breach a cockpit door on an airliner? Guess what; it's not too hard whatsoever (especially pre 9/11.) You see, the cockpit door is designed for ease of crew entry and as an emergency escape, not as a fortification against determined intruders. One heave of a shoulder, one kick of a purposeful foot and almost anyone, armed or otherwise, can break through the door and wreak havoc in a dozen different ways. September eleventh wasn't the first time a cockpit door was breached on an airliner.

Aside from that, how hard would it be really (when you're a fanatic as was the case on that day) to attack a seated individual with his back to you, slit his throat, or instruct everyone in the cockpit to vacate with the threat of slitting the throat of some helpless passenger with one arm around their face, while the other is ready with a razor ready to slice?

You don't need to be 'superman' to hold a sharp instrument to a helpless persons jugular in order to gain control over a group of people on an airliner. Would you honestly provoke the situation at that point to play hero at the expense of this persons life coming to an end right in front of you? I don't think so. Furthermore, we're talking about a brutal strong arm attack out of nowhere on a group of airline passengers; not a plane full of G.I Joe's friend.

Same goes with the pilots. How often do you think they've actually initiated that hijack button in their careers? Chances are, not once. Even if they had heard some sort of disturbance; they had no idea what the cause was (a passenger scuffle? mentally unstable passenger? Intoxicated passenger?) It's easy to sit back seven years after the fact and Monday morning quarterback that the guys up front should have instantly assumed 'hijack' -- but I'm sure you're aware, things don't always go by procedure. Especially when you're taken totally by surprise and a group of maniacs have just slit the throat open of the guy seated next to you before you know what is even going on.

"Flt. 93 passengers were willing to sacrifice their lives to ' rush ' a cockpit"

Yeah, and you know why? Because they knew they weren't in for your average hijacking. They were aware that the flights were being used as kamikaze death planes at that point.

"The people who are safe do NOT give up their safety, no matter what. Armored car guards..."

Were not talking about armored car guards. For one; these pilots weren't 'armed' were they? Their not transporting currency; their transporting passengers. Fundamentally that is their main priority; the safety of their crew and passengers. When you become aware that people have had their throats slit (or it's happened to the guy in the seat next to you, or one of your crew is in the position to have their throat slit depending upon if you abandon your seat or not) -- chances are you will comply because as pointed out, you have a split second decision to make. Give up your seat, vacate the cockpit, or somebody gets their throat slashed. Logically the person is going to buy for time and comply. That's just human nature.

"Imagine a room full of people, men fully capable of offensive actions, and some women, being raided by some punks with small blades...."

These aren't 'small blades' -- they're vicious weapons in the hands of a suicide fanatic. Are you familiar with box cutters? I in fact am and let me assure you, it's not unheard of to obtain a set that extend out to over an inch or more. That would be an ich of razor sharp steel similar to a straight razor.

As for the tapes being fakes, show me any sort of credible evidence for that please.

Thanks for that link. By the way, I'm still curious as to why 'eyewitness86' assumes that the recovered voice recorder tapes are fakes. Maybe he can elaborate, or provide a link as well.

Originally posted by jprophet420

Good topic EW 86. Let's start with the cockpit doors and how the hijackers breached the cockpit. According to this designnews.com article, the cockpit doors were considered weak enough to be able to be breached.

So were they feeble enough to be breached faster than the panic button could be activated? if they were made out of anything stronger than open air I would guess the answer to be 'no'.

One good kick in the right place would take you through the cockpit door of a jetlier prior to September 11, just as it will open most house front doors. These were not reinforced vault doors.

That, of course is assuming they were locked. Which I'm willing to bet most of the time they weren't, regardless of procedure. Humans are like that when it comes to lack of danger and long-time habit.

As for the panic button:

In world war two the Dutch underground was hopelessly compromised by the Gestapo, it was their only successful nation-wide operation against the resistance and the various resistance movements' chief backer; SOE.

For years SOE operatives were captured on arrival and their radios "turned". ie operated by their correct operators but to German instructions.

SOE's procedures to ensure operational and radio secrecy were routinely flouted by SOE itself, ensuring that one after another operation was compromised and air-drops of personnel and supplies intercepted.

In the worst instance of all the captured radio operator used correct procedure to warn that the radio was compromised and was admonished by SOE's controller in the UK to use correct identification procedure (ie "everything's normal") next time. SOE had been told their operations were screwed but ignored it, leading to further compromised operations.

Humans are deeply stupid animals when it comes to following SOP correctly.

Originally posted by HowlrunnerIV
um...Highly trained in what? Sitting in an arm chair for six hours?


Plus, prior to Septeber 11, 2001, it might not have been plicy to hand over your Boeing, but how many jetliner hijackings had ended in ALL of the hostages dying?

You really need to do some research so you know a little more about what you are talking about.

1. Pilots are highly trained professionals.

2. Pilots are responsable for the people on their planes, they are not just going to hand it over without a fight, speically to 2 guys with boxcutters.

NO microphones were keyed...the ONLY tape of any radio transmissions was from Flt. 93, where supposedly the highjackers didn't know the handset was for the rear of the plane, and used the radio to tell the passengers to be cool, etc. No other tapes exist or were alleged of any mikes being keyed. Supposedly all four jets were taken before even one pilot could key a mike, that is impossible.

Why do I say two seconds? That is because it would take a pilot two seconds to either place the highjack alert, or to key a mike, and not ONE pilot was able to do so. We are asked to believe that in all four cases the highjackers were so fast that no mayday could be sent. That is crazy. The odds are too far out.

As for trained pilots giving up the plane, that is nonsense. They wopuld NEVER give up the controls to anyone else, no matter what. If some stewardess were getting her throat slashed behind the pilots, no doubt they would feel badly for her, but better her than the whole plane, which is what is risked if the pilots are gone. NO highjacking in HISTORY ever envisioned the highjackers assuming the controls; normally they would force the pilots to fly somewhere. If the cockpits were assaulted and the highjackers made it clear that they intended to take the plane and fly it themselves, the pilots would resist to the death.

And , by the way, why not just have the opriginal pilots fly the planes under orders to the destinations, and only kioll them and steer the planes if the pilots balked at the orders? Why assume that they could turn transponders off and beat the highly vaunted Air Force, who SURELY would have intercepted any planes off course of with treansponders off: HOW could the highjackers COUNT on being able to fly for an hour unimpeded? Normally there would be NO WAY a plane could go that long without a fighter escort...but on 9-11 of course NO fighters were allowede to get anywhere near those planes, for obvious reasons: The pilots of any fighters would have seen the pilots waving and signaling that their controls did not respond!!

So, we have FOUR cockpit takeovers with instant results: Within two secons the pilots could have and WOULD have, keyed a mike or sent the alert, and that never happened. The tape of the supposed ' highjacker ' telling the passengers ( really ATC ) that they were going to the airoport was NOT when some pilot had the radio mike in his hand, it was AFTER thwe supposed highjacking, when the pilots were hauled out of their seats and the highjackers had assumed the controls. So within two seconds, the time it would have taken the pilots to react, all sets of four highjackers must have : Breahced the cockpiots, slashed two able bodied pilots to death, hauled them from the cockpits, and assumed the controls..that is the ONLY way to fit the events that are reported with what we know.

Instant takeoevers in all four cases...olnly ONE radio transmission, and that supposedly after the taking, when a highjacker spoke into the wrong mike, even though they were skilled enough to trun off the transponders and fly the heavy jets perfectly to their destinations..right? Who could believe that? They know all about the aircraft, except for how to talk to the ATC, right?

No one has YET answered my question: Please tell us HOW all four sets of highjackers LIKELY were able to take all FOUR cockpits instantly, with not ONE pilot being able to key a mike..examine the logistics of slashing two men to death and hauling their bodies out of a cramped cockpit, please. How long would that take? More than two seconds, guaranteed!! How long from the time the door was breached until total control was assumed by the highjackers, only TWO SECONDS? Sure. Cleveland Tower was talking to the pilot of 93 just 2 seconds before there was dead air..two seconds and all contact gone. We are told to believe that in those two seconds between the Tower talking to 93 and the next attempt to talk, the highjackers mamanged a complete and total takeover, please tell us HOW that could happen.

That is the nitty grritty of the matter: In two seconds all contact was lost..from a calm and cool pilot to dead air in two seconds. Then we hear the phony staged tape of the supposed highjacker using the WRONG handset to talk, and giving the message on the air and not to the rear of the plane..What are the odds? beyond crazy.

So until someone can show some LIKELY evidence that can explain two second takeovers, remote highjacking is the only answer that makes any sense at all.