How Were the Cockpits Taken ? Examining the Logistics

Originally posted by FOXMULDER147
reply to post by richierich

 

I was going to reply to your post myself, but "weedwhacker" did a good enough job.

The big point you keep making is that the hijacking seemed to happen perfectly in "ALL FOUR" cases. True, but why is this so unbelievable to you?

We have established that prior to 9/11 cabin doors were flimsy and that the attackers could easily have forced their way in and incapacitated the pilots very quickly.

Knowing this, the fact that it happened in "FOUR" simultaneous cases or "FOUR MILLION" is irrelevant.

You are forgetting that a pilot isn't going to start reporting a 'hijack' to anybody until he knows without a doubt that the plane is being hijacked. It could be someone bursting into the cockpit by mistake... it could be a drunk passenger...

It's not like as soon as he hears any strange noise he immediately presses the big, red flashing "HIJACK! OMFG!" button on his control panel.

[edit on 4-6-2010 by FOXMULDER147]

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WHO ' has established ' all the stuff you claim? YOU? It has NEVER been demonstrated as far as I know how many kicks it took at what force to enter a locked cockpit door. Even If the doors could fall apart easily, you still imagine ( I suppose imagination is where your ' established' things come from) that a small man ( two would not fit side by side) could attack, renfer helpless and haul out of the cockpit BOTH pilots....as if all EIGHT pilots would allow someone to get behind them and slash their throats in that confined area....it goes too deep for a surface swimmer like you.

Suffice it to say that you have to IMAGINE all kinds of UNLIKELY and far fetched scenarios to believe that nonsense. you have to accept a door that falls apart...and accept eight pilots giving up or dying without resistance...and accept this and that and dear God I have repeated this over and over.

Your assumptions are unfounded..your beliefs not supported by evidence, and the ODDS of all 4 cases being perfect and so fast that not even ONE could RADIO...well, if you believe that, you are just what Dick Cheney loves...and why this nation is headed to hell in a handbasket.

Think what you wish..but for heavens sake stop guessing and THINK for a change!!

reply to post by richierich


You seem to be lacking in lacking in reading comprehension - among
other cognative problems

Suggest you reread posts by WEEDWHACKER and 767DOCTOR .....

Is it me, or do all of richies posts contain the exact same drivel, almost verbatim? I'm starting to think it's his out of office auto-reply message.

Rich, we are trying to have a discussion here. Can you at least try and read people's replies and respond their criticisms without repeating yourself? An example is the "hijack switch" thing. I'm still not sure if you realize there isn't any such thing. If we can't get you past a single factoid which can be verified instantly on the internet, how are we gonna have a meaningful discussion on the theory of "remote control takeover"?

[edit on 8-6-2010 by 767doctor]

Originally posted by richierichas if all EIGHT pilots would allow someone to get behind them and slash their throats in that confined area

- I don't think it's a case of "allowing" them to do it

- you do realise that everyone on a plane is "behind" the pilots?

Click here to learn more about this warning.

Wow. Chill out. Your stridency just make you sound like you're trying to convince yourself. And that impression only intensifies when you start maiking excuses to ignore people.

Just think - would you stop to use a radio if someone was trying to murder you?

And furthermore, why was the radio not used until after the hijackers were subdued in the example you've been shown above? Surely the fact that in the only comparable situation anyone can find the mayday was not immediately sounded must at least give you pause?

Originally posted by richierich
My main point is that even if two pilots ( TIMES 4 !! ) could not react fast enough to do that, at least ONE of them surely could use the RADIO, which switch is located on the yoke. You keep scremaing about a switch and ignoring the gorilla in the room.

It´s not like that. Each two pilot crew was alone, without the knowledge (that you now have) of what was coming and either one or both got attacked savagely and obviously didn´t have the luxury of those few seconds to use the radio or dial the numbers.
Besides, you have to give this some thought. How did they now they were being hijacked?? Some of them might have thought there was simply a passenger who was crazy, lost his marbles. Why not??
You don´t hurry to call hijack or mayday until you´re positive of what´s happening, but then it was too late for them, obviously.

It does NOT MATTER if it is a switch, a button, a dial, whatever...it does exist and takes a few seconds to do.

NO. Sorry, a switch would be much simpler and faster. No, it´s a panel. Either with knobs or with numbered keys. You have to be able to look at it, and select or dial the numbers, using a FREE HAND to do so.

Look richierich, I believe the problem lies on how you´re viewing this theme.
Because you´re viewing it with the knowledge of what happened, and the knowledge of how much things have changed since 9/11.
A takeover like that today is much less likely because of all the things we have learned from that tragedy and pilot and flight attendant crews are much differently prepared now.
But you have to take yourself back to prior 9/11. Although there was some awareness about the threat of terrorist attacks possibly coming, the state of mind of crews was completely different. The doors were different, the procedures also different.
Now, you also have to look at each case separately because I believe that the only crew that received any information was UA93.
But the rest of them was pretty much a quick maneuver, surprise attack where the pilots would have been occupied in trying to avoid the attack or staying alive, instead of trying to dial the code or use the radio to call a mayday.



[edit on 8-6-2010 by rush969]

reply to post by rush969

You don´t hurry to call hijack or mayday until you´re positive of what´s happening, but then it was too late for them, obviously.

The captain would not hang around to ask if someone who is not a member of staff entered the cockpit if they were looking for the tolet.

All these terrorsts get 400% sucess one day and none since must tell you something and do spare the crap about security being a million percent better because suicide bombers would try every week if they real had that rate of sucess untill they themselves could see security made it impossible.

Apart from two other attemps in nine years we don't see regular attacks which realy brings into question the 400% suscess rate on 9/11 don't you thinks.

Originally posted by richierich
You cling to nonsense to avoid the hard questions...all the time. There IS a highjack alert system, with either dials or buttons that are aligned to numbers and send an alert. This is FACT. Look at the pictures of it on this thread and then admit that it does NOT MATTER if it is a switch, a button, a dial, whatever...it does exist and takes a few seconds to do.

You're telling me that I need to look at the transponder pictures on the thread to understand? Holy irony overload, batman! If you'd have actually *read* my replies, you may have noticed two posts, in which I detail exactly what the "hijack alert system" is...


"Just type "transponder code 7500" or "squawk 7500" into google and you'll quickly realize that the "hijack alert" is just like any other 4-digit transponder code. There is also "7600" for NORDO(No Radio), "7700" for emergencies, and "1200" for VFR flight."

(....)

"If you look carefully, you'll notice 4 knobs just below the "0000" display. Assuming we start at "0000"; to key in "7500" - you'd rotate the left outer knob 1 click CCW(or 7 clicks CW), the left inner knob 3 clicks CCW(or 5 clicks CW) and hit the "ENT" button, which is the lower button between the knobs."

I'm not trying to debate the meanings of words, or argue against synonyms for the word 'switch'..or sidetrack the thread with a silly semantics dispute. No. I have been trying to *make* you understand that entering the hijack code takes time, that its not the flip of a switch, or a turn of a dial, or the push of the button. You must manipulate four knobs, one at a time, until "7500" shows in the window, then hit the "enter" button. It's no different from entering any other transponder code.

I'm really running out of ways to explain this. Please understand it this time.

My main point is that even if two pilots ( TIMES 4 !! ) could not react fast enough to do that, at least ONE of them surely could use the RADIO, which switch is located on the yoke. You keep scremaing about a switch and ignoring the gorilla in the room.

Might as well make that (TIMES 5 !!) in all of your future posts because you keep forgetting that the pilots of Fedex 705 didn't enter the hijack code or radio ATC until after the bloodbath was over. That's right, rich. They didnt radio before the hijacker commenced his assault; they didn't radio during the struggle...they radioed after he attacker was subdued, which was several minutes later. If they had tried to radio for help(how is ATC going to help?) or fiddle with the transponder code, the outcome of Fedex 705 would have ended much more tragically.

You still haven't told us why you would try to use a radio when someone is trying to kill you. Have you tried visualizing the situation? What you are suggesting is comical.

NONE of you have ever given a sound , likley, way it could have happened. To IMAGINE, with NO EVIDENCE, that all 4 planes were taken by a small man kicking in the cockpit door and assaulting not only the closest pilot to him, in the left seat, but the right pilot(s) as well so fast that not even ONE could manage to push the radio button on the yoke and yell a mayday. NOT A PEEP.

What if it was two or three averaged size hijackers instead of one small one?

I will not any longer try and educate you; obviously there exists and condition within you that cannot allow convincing with facts, logic, and common sense, so you are beyond hope.

I haven't seen you post any facts or sound logic, Richie. All you've posted is speculation, logical fallacies, outright falsehoods, and a comical sense of priorities in a dire situation...as well as abysmal reading comprehension.

[edit on 9-6-2010 by 767doctor]

Here is my last word to you: If you think that all the pilots and architects and engineers and intel pro's that are registered at patriotfor911truth.com are WRONG and YOU are the right ones, then your combined expertise should SURELY carry the day if you take each point they make and refute it logically and completely.

I trust THEM and not YOU for the real answers. So far you have failed to convince, either me or any reader that uses logic and fact. DONE.

An appeal to authority.

An apt way to end, I suppose.

reply to post by richierich


Hmmmm....am I beginning to see the reason for the pattern, richie? The pattern, meaning: The continued ignoring of ANYTHING written in this thread, and richierich's simple repeating of the SAME tired old mantra, over and over again...key words and catchphrases need not be mentioned, as they are evident upon review of the various posts by said ATS member...

If you think that all the pilots and architects and engineers and intel pro's that are registered at patriotfor911truth.com are WRONG and YOU are the right ones...

Am I to surmise the reason for this obstinance stems from the site patriotfor911truth.com??

Are THEY the ones parroting the 'talking points' that appear so frequently (and over and over again) in richierich's posts???


Perhaps that site needs to be paid a visit by people who actually know what they're talking about......or, is it just not worth it? Are they just the same kind of joke that I imagine them to be? (Much like that other bunch of screwballs, the "PilotsFor9/11Truth")?

Perhaps they're related? In any event...will take a look at the various rosters, and examine the "stated" qualifications. I'm sure it will be good for a chuckle.....I know the "Pilots" group already, all too well. Nothing there of any substance. SO, I ain't holding my breath, expecting to be "wowed" by the 'patriots', either....

[edit on 9 June 2010 by weedwhacker]

i still think there is a good chance that the planes were actually some sort of holograms

reply to post by teosty


And what would be the sense of posting that here??
Trying to start a holograms discussion??
I think that can be discussed somewhere else.



[edit on 10-6-2010 by rush969]

Originally posted by richierich
Here is my last word to you: If you think that all the pilots and architects and engineers and intel pro's that are registered at patriotfor911truth.com are WRONG and YOU are the right ones, then your combined expertise should SURELY carry the day if you take each point they make and refute it logically and completely.

I trust THEM and not YOU for the real answers. So far you have failed to convince, either me or any reader that uses logic and fact. DONE.

That's your problem - you trust them because they tell you what you want to hear. As I said earlier, I'm not asking you to take my word for any of this. I've even invited you to take what I say on this topic to unbiased source outside the truth movement to verify my facts. PFT wants you to swallow their(often mutually exclusive) claims whole without so much as a pause. You think they'd invite you to take their claims to an unbiased source outside of their little online treefort? Not a chance. That's because they are selling snakeoil..and dvds, and shirts, and mugs and pajamas.

Odds are everything. The odds tell us what is reasonable and natural and what is highly improbable and likely fraud.

Originally posted by rush969


Now, you also have to look at each case separately because I believe that the only crew that received any information was UA93.
But the rest of them was pretty much a quick maneuver, surprise attack where the pilots would have been occupied in trying to avoid the attack or staying alive, instead of trying to dial the code or use the radio to call a mayday.

[edit on 8-6-2010 by rush969]

I agree , just wanted to mention f175 also received warning via Atta himself. F93, as you said, had a full and complete warning of what was happening and how it would occur(through cockpit intrusion). Moments after asking for a confirmation of the last message that was sent to them via ACARS, the one telling them to beware of cockpit intrusion, the hijack took place.

One thing to note here(especially to RR) is that moments later before the rather calm man with a accent gets on the mic and repeats the same thing, that is: "to be calm and they were going to the airport to have their demands met", there is the first hijacker that appear to jump the gun while he can still barely talk. He is completely out of breath, this wasn't from running from first class to the cockpit, obviously. It was probably b/c of the advance warning, that the pilot and co pilot were able to put up a good fight.

Anyways, Just wanted to make a point that f175 also most likely deduced that a hijacking had just taken place. Atta had made the same statement as the f93 hijacker (but accidentally over the air instead of the cabin) with the critical admission that they had "planes" plural, as in they hijacked multiple aircraft. We know this because f175 informed ATC that they heard the supposedly accidental transmission allegedly by Atta.

Another thing to note, strangely, mysteriously, ultimately coincidentally (at least to OS'ers) as soon as f175 informed ATC as to what they had just heard, the hijacking took place. It was literally the last transmission they made asking for confirmation from ATC as to what they just informed them.

So if your counting, that's two times that day where the moment the cockpits were informed or reported information regarding the hijackings taking place, the takeovers started almost instantly. Conspiracy theory? Another sick coincidence to add to the many sickening coincidences that took place that day.

I've wondered that before.
It doesn't make sense.
But then again, nothing about 9/11 makes any freakin sense!

Originally posted by PersonalChoice



I agree , just wanted to mention f175 also received warning via Atta himself... Conspiracy theory? Another sick coincidence to add to the many sickening coincidences that took place that day.

It's misleading to suggest that F175 knew about the hijacking. They received a suspicious signal, which they reported, but the idea that they understood fully its implications or even heard it properly (in their message they made no mention of the information you - somewhat ironically - describe as "critical") is pure fantasy of the kind only possible with 20/20 hindsight.

Look at the reaction of people on the ground, of the ATC. Even they didn't start talking about a hijacking until after 175 was taken. Listen to the recordings of the reaction to the terrorists' transmissions. Nobody is certain of anything.

Originally posted by TrickoftheShade

Originally posted by PersonalChoice



I agree , just wanted to mention f175 also received warning via Atta himself... Conspiracy theory? Another sick coincidence to add to the many sickening coincidences that took place that day.

It's misleading to suggest that F175 knew about the hijacking. They received a suspicious signal, which they reported, but the idea that they understood fully its implications or even heard it properly (in their message they made no mention of the information you - somewhat ironically - describe as "critical") is pure fantasy of the kind only possible with 20/20 hindsight.

Look at the reaction of people on the ground, of the ATC. Even they didn't start talking about a hijacking until after 175 was taken. Listen to the recordings of the reaction to the terrorists' transmissions. Nobody is certain of anything.

What are you talking about? Talk about the pot calling the kettle black. I realize now after rereading my post that you miss read one sentence, but still you took certain sentences out of context and then even quoted two sentences together that were in two totally different paragraphs???? Misleading are we? I will correct you and state further why I believe what I do regarding this in a attempt to help you understand.

First my quote, the first sentence " I agree , just wanted to mention f175 also received warning via Atta himself." was the first sentence in the first paragraph outlining what I was about to say. The second sentence you quoted "Conspiracy theory? Another sick coincidence to add to the many sickening coincidences that took place that day." Was the last sentence in the third paragraph and it was referring to the fact that it appears that the moment the pilots from f93 and f175 were told or reported information about the hijackings the takeovers of the plane began.

Secondly, and most important, because I couldn't disagree with you more, it is not misleading or pure fantasy to suggest that f175 likely deduced that a hijacking was taking place(Saying I said they knew is a flat out lie, I plainly said they likely deduced the fact).

Why? Because for one ATC had them looking for a 767 then told them they were going to keep them away from them. Then of course f175 reports itself that they heard the transmissions where Atta told everyone to stay in their seats and stay calm and that they had some planes and were on their way back to the airport to have their demands met( www.gwu.edu... Btw, it was multiple transmissions that you can find in the link) TOS, you misread me, I know that f175 didn't say they heard him say "we have some planes", but they did say that they "heard a suspicious transmission out of Boston" , they said "it sounded like someone keyed the mike and told everyone to stay in their seats" there is not a single reason to think they didn't hear the multiple transmissions that Atta made. Especially when you factor in that they summarized all of them, see Atta never once said to "stay in your seats" he says things like "stay quiet" , "nobody move" but if you read Atta's transmissions, and your a pilot trying to remain non alarmist and professional your gonna just summarize and say what you know he meant.

Now did f175 KNOW a hijacking was coming their way..of course not. But we're talking about a period of twenty some minutes from the time f175 hears a man with a accent keying a ATC radio channel saying we have some planes, don't do anything stupid you'll endanger the plane and yourselves, we're going back to the airport. Then minutes later he's told to look for a 767, then he's told that he needs to stay away from this 767, get away from him, by this time you can bet questions and obvious answers were stating to pile up quick in the two pilots heads, they might have already been figuring it out talking amongst themselves. Then they decide to tell ATC what they heard , maybe in a attempt to get more input from them on what was going on, then boom silence, the takeover begins.

Lastly, by the time Ballinger(if memory serves me still) was sending out the ACARS warnings to f93 to beware of cockpit intrusion, everyone on the planet knew what was happening.