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How Were the Cockpits Taken ? Examining the Logistics

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posted on Sep, 30 2007 @ 06:12 PM
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originally posted by eyewitness86
I have for a long time believed that the biggest smoking gun proof of remote control highjacking, and therefore an inside job, is the FACT that not ONE of EIGHT pilots, and over a dozen crew members, were able to activate the ' Highjack ' alert, which according to professional pilots here on ATS is as simple as flipping a switch. It takes just a second to do, yet not ONE pilot or other crew member managed to do so.


I always hear about this alleged hijack ''switch'', that only takes one second to activate. Can anyone point it out to me?

I was always under the assumption that only the transponder can send a hijack signal. Why would anyone except the pilots have access to the transponder or any other hijack switch in the passenger cabin?




posted on Sep, 30 2007 @ 09:07 PM
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I will try and answer the last two questions and please someone correct me if I am wrong: LarryB.: Sure, passengers would be flung around the cabin if they were unbelted, another good reason to stay belted at all times possible...but better thrown around than killed by some suicide highjacker or in danger from a highjacking that demanded a destination, an almost unheard of phenomenon these days; for years the concentration in intelligence has shown that highjackers were most likley to use aircraft as missles, with religious fervor as the impetus for a suicide mission.

In any case, whatever the intentions of a highjacker, better to do EVERYTHING possible to try and disarm and subdue him before he gets control. Better to take the chance rather than surrender control over their primary responsibility, the safety of the passengers and crew. Surrender was impossible, and to murder both pilots with boxcutters before even one could flip the switch is beyond reason, of course.

As to the switch itself, I am hoping that Mr. Lear or someone else can provide us with a diagram of the appropriate switch and where it is located. The obvious logic of having several locations known to crew throughout the plane is in the fact that if some one in the rear could send the alert, then the pilots could be backed up if they were in fact overwhelmed somehow, by a cockpit decompression perhaps, of some type of tear gas used once the cockpit door was open. However, there is NO evidence that the ' highjackers ' had gas masks and gas and the type weapons that could instantly incapacitate anyone.

So for sure in galleys and perhaps other areas on a plane, it would make sense to have the ability to notify the ground, just in case. The fact that NONE of those positions were used means something: that none of them COULD have been used., because of the remote control instanttaneous takeover of all systems: When the transponders blinked off, the highjack alarms were turned off also, no one on the plane could have sent one even if they had flipped the switch, which would have been a certainty in any emergency. It did not happen even one time in four. Some odds, huh?



posted on Sep, 30 2007 @ 09:13 PM
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Originally posted by Larry B.




So ....What about all of the passengers? Wouldn't they fly around the cabin too?


Of course. But they would suffer somewhat less injury than plowing into a 120 story building downtown Manhatten.



posted on Sep, 30 2007 @ 09:27 PM
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Originally posted by Boone 870



I always hear about this alleged hijack ''switch'', that only takes one second to activate. Can anyone point it out to me?


I retired in 2000. I never heard of a hijack swtich.


I was always under the assumption that only the transponder can send a hijack signal.


There was a 4 digit hijack code. It would take about 2 seconds to dial it in.
I know of no other way (up to the time I retired) to send a transponder signal other than from the cockpit transponder unit.


Why would anyone except the pilots have access to the transponder or any other hijack switch in the passenger cabin?


No one would. I know of no such switch.

Now, having said all that let me make it perfectly clear that I retired in 2000. There are many new hijack procedures I have only heard about but have not been trained on. So many of your questions may pertain to those new procedures that I know nothing about.



posted on Sep, 30 2007 @ 09:39 PM
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reply to post by johnlear
 


Thanks for the reply John.

Most of the questions that I have asked pertain to pre-9/11 procedures. If you would, I have a couple of more questions.

1. What is the procedure to change the transponder code?
2. When you say two seconds, is that under ideal conditions?
3. Do you believe that you could do it in two seconds after someone had breached the cockpit?



posted on Sep, 30 2007 @ 09:51 PM
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To tell you the truth I always thought that an aircrew in this situation would not really expect this type of attack. Any hijacking in the pass was the type to force the plane to go some direction to land etc. In this case the hijackers were killing as fast as they could. If they killed the flight attendances quickly they would have surprise on their side as they went to the flight deck next. I really do not think they would have used the key for those doors were very flimsy and one good kick would open them.

The crews are in seats that are not the easiest seats to get in and out of and they would also be wearing their seatbelts and harnesses. In this situation a good kick on the door and two hijackers entering to kill the pilots as quick as they could you would find a situation where the pilots would be fighting with their seatbelts as their throats were being cut.

I do find it odd that all were successful in doing this, and this could be because of our Monday morning quarterbacking. As a military person prior to 9/11 we were told to just not stand out for the military guy is the first to die, and so most people would not be the type to jump a hijacker.

Prior to 9/11 this was a truly alien thought, but I would say god help a person who would try it again today.



posted on Sep, 30 2007 @ 09:57 PM
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Remember flying before 9/11 - cockpit door was closed at takeoff, once
plane reached cruise altitude would be open and left open for most if not
all of the flight. Flight attendents would walk in and out of cockpit, pilots
would casually stroll down the aisle to bathrooms.

Prior to 9/11 most hijackings did not attack the flight crews (the 1987
Pacific Southwest incident and 1994 Federal Express attempted hijack
were exceptions as hijacker was suicidal) - how else would you fly the
plane to where you want. 9/11 hijackings were different in that the
flight crew was expenable - it was the plan to eliminate them and replace
them with hijackers minimally trained to fly.

The terrorists did extensive planning and took many test flights - Actor
James Woods spotted one dry run several weeks before 9/11, but
nobody believed him. Would watch patterns of flight attendents
and pilots to learn when flight attendents would open cockpit doors to
deliver coffee and food to pilots and which of them would be holding the
key.

The attack would be sudden "blitz" style rush in and start stabbing pilots
to disable them quickly before could disable autopilots and start to roll
and pitch the plane (just the moves hijackers on Flight 93 tried). Not
simply walk in and announce hijacking as was done previously .

Pilots would have been at severe disadvantage - strapped in seated
position facing forward while someone comes up from behind and starts
stabbing you. You are in poor position to resist.
This was not some meek surrender - it was brutual act designed to
quickly kill. We know the "muscle" hijackers worked out and practiced
their technique to refine it.

Some have made reference to "magic" hijacking button - as far as know
nothing like this exists - to activate hijack code on transponder requires
dialing in code 7500 which signals ATC that plane is hijacked.

The 9/11 plan was carefully thought out and rehersed by people who would
kill coldly and quickly and didn't care if they lived - object of the plan was
to die in some glorious ending.



posted on Sep, 30 2007 @ 10:00 PM
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Originally posted by Boone 870

1. What is the procedure to change the transponder code?


I'm use to an older type that you need to spin 4 small wheels from your present squawk to 7700, and other types you need to access the computer to change the code. I do not think this would be the easiest thing to do under instant duress as some guy was trying to kill you right away while you are in your seat. I do think they could get off a call though, but then again you need to use one hand to key the mike, and if the hijackers first grab your headset on your head and then started to stab you I do not see much you could do while still strapped in your seat.
I’m not sure if they have a panic type button though for in the military we never had anything like that.



posted on Sep, 30 2007 @ 10:26 PM
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reply to post by Xtrozero
 



I am also familiar with the wheel style transponders, but I am not familiar with the digital type on modern airliners. That is why I was hoping Mr. Lear could explain the procedure for changing the code on the digital transponders. I think I would be hard-pressed to change to a specific code on the wheel style transponder in less than five seconds.

I don't think that is unreasonable to assume that the hijackers had keys to unlock the door. If that is how the hijackers entered the cockpit, than the pilots probably did know that they were in there until it was way too late to reprogram the transponder.

One of the flight 93 pilots was able to transmit a May Day and I believe, one of the flight 11 pilots was heard by air traffic control for several minutes after the hijacking. Maybe once the knives were to their throats, the pilots done what ever the attackers instructed them to do.



posted on Sep, 30 2007 @ 10:42 PM
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Originally posted by Boone 870



Thanks for the reply John.

Most of the questions that I have asked pertain to pre-9/11 procedures. If you would, I have a couple of more questions.

1. What is the procedure to change the transponder code?


The transponder is located either on the overhead panel or the center console. It consists of 4 moveable dials which show numbers one through seven. 2 round knobs (1, 2) dial change the first 2 numbers and last 2 numbers. The hijack code is 4 numbers.

If someone is trying to enter the cockpit by force one of the pilots reaches over and turns those dials to the hijack code. It should only take about 2 seconds, maybe three or four seconds depending on how far the digits set are from the hijack code. (The button on top of the first knob labeled IDENT is pressed at the request of ATC. The button on top of the second knob labeled TEST is a test function.) Both of those knobs turn independently of the IDENT and TEST buttons.

This is the transponder located on the center console, between the pilots, of the Lockheed L-1011.




2. When you say two seconds, is that under ideal conditions?


2 to 4 seconds assuming you aren't grappling with a hijacker.


3. Do you believe that you could do it in two seconds after someone had breached the cockpit?


There are too many variables to answer that question so it would depend.

If I was fighting for my life it might not be my first prioity to set the hijack code. But I have the airplane controls the rapid movement of which would instantly disable a hijacker.

Someone once proposed that a trained killer could enter the cockpit and slit the throats of the captain and co-pilot before they knew what was happening. Unlikely. But lets assume for the sake of the argument that that happened. There would be so much blood in the cockpit that it would be physically impossible to take the seat belt off of of the crewmembers and drag them out of their seats and drag them into the cabin. (There is not enough room between the back of the pilots seats and the cockpit door for 2 dead bodies.)

Remember that the pilots seat move electrically forward after the pilots are seated to put them in position to fly. It would be impossible to drag a body, assuming you could unfasten the seat belt, out of his seat if you had just slit his throat. The pilots legs fit under the instrument panel and extend forward to the rudder pedals. You would have to lift, boost, lift, boost lift, boost to get his legs from under the instrument panel.

My opinion is that there is no way that hijackers successfully disabled 8 pilots. There were too many options available to the pilots and in the case of Flight 77 FDR there is not the slightest indication of any altercation whatsoever during that flight.



posted on Sep, 30 2007 @ 10:44 PM
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The box cutter knives seems to be the accepted story but didn't I read on this forum that there was no evidence that this was all they were armed with? (wish I could find that). I think it said that one of the 'phone calls' made by passengers from one of the planes stated that someone had a gun and even a bomb.

The theory advanced in that thread was that the boxcutter knives (and presumably toenail clippers judging by current security) were blamed as the aviation industry was scared of the potential law suit involved so they blamed it on weapons that were previously allowed onboard flights. If it got out that they were armed with guns / explosives etc that should never have been on a flight then they would be considered culpable.

I also remember reading (again no idea where) that the cockpit doors were not broken down that the pilots were brought out under threat of killing flight attendants.

I will have a little trawl about and see if I can find some links.



posted on Oct, 1 2007 @ 04:25 PM
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Here is another article that I found interesting. I found two other articles mentioning the ''Boeing key'', but I can't find anything official from Boeing itself.

WASHINGTON - In some cases, the attacks were swift and ruthless, the hijackers slitting the throats of passengers and stabbing flight attendants to gain immediate control of the cabin. They probably used the universal "Boeing key" to unlock the cockpit door and kill the pilots before they could even touch their radios.
www.Boston.com



posted on Oct, 1 2007 @ 05:19 PM
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The box cutter knives seems to be the accepted story but didn't I read on this forum that there was no evidence that this was all they were armed with? (wish I could find that). I think it said that one of the 'phone calls' made by passengers from one of the planes stated that someone had a gun and even a bomb.


The term "box cutter" knife is a media invention - more correct term is
"tactical" knife. These are small knives with blade lenghts of 3-3 1/2"
most have one hand operation, a stud or indention/hole in the blade
which allows user to flick it open quickly with a finger. Go to any
knife catalog and will literally see dozens of them. The stud permits
them to bypass state laws against switchblades/gravity/butterfly type
knives.

Despite small size are still very deadly - about year ago in
Atlanta a guy (ex military) was coming home late at night from job as
cook when set upon by 6 teenage punks armed with shotgun and pistol
trying to rob him. All had was tactical knife with blade about 3" - was
able to kill one and wound another while remaining punks bugged out.

As for bombs know that hijackers used fake bombs made of ordinary
materials to evade security to frighten and control passengers.

Also on at least one plane (Flight 11) hijackers used mace or pepper
spray to clear out first class section during hijacking. Flight attendents
and passengers report hijackers spraying something which caused eye
and breathing irritation.



posted on Oct, 1 2007 @ 11:07 PM
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OK. Let me take Flight 77, the Pentagon flight as an example. Flown by Naval officer Chick Burlingame who participated in the original games simulating a hijacked airplane being flown into the Pentagon


Playing fast and loose with the facts are we?



posted on Oct, 2 2007 @ 12:40 AM
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Originally posted by Swampfox46_1999


originally postes by johnlear
OK. Let me take Flight 77, the Pentagon flight as an example. Flown by Naval officer Chick Burlingame who participated in the original games simulating a hijacked airplane being flown into the Pentagon



Playing fast and loose with the facts are we?



Here's Barbara Honegger:

...the main pilot of the 9-11 Pentagon plane, former Navy and then Navy Reservist pilot Charles Burlingame, had recently, in a Reserve assignment at the Pentagon, been part of a Task Force that drafted the Pentagon's emergency response plan on what to do in case a plane hit the building - which his own plane then did. It is therefore very possible - in fact extremely likely, if not certain - that this 'task force' that Flight 77 pilot "Chick" Burlingame was part of was the Cheney counterterrorism preparedness task force, and that the Pentagon plane pilot, therefore, directly knew and even worked with/for Cheney. and

Burlingame's 9-11 Pentagon plane not only hit the Pentagon that morning, it struck a Command and Control center for that morning's counterterrorism "game" exercise, killing most, if not all, of the "players". We know this because Army personnel from Ft. Monmouth, New Jersey were on special duty assignment at the Pentagon that morning for an emergency response exercise and were killed when Burlingame's plane hit. Ft. Monmouth, New Jersey also happens to be the headquarters for White House/Presidential communications, including therefore probably also for Air Force One (this is discoverable) -- and recall the warning "Air Force One is next" and the 'secret code' which was called into the White House that morning which WH press secretary Ari Fleischer revealed as a means of explaining why Pres. Bush left Florida for a military base and did not return to the White House. This "warning" was probably called into the White House, if true, by either the Ft. Monmouth White House communications headquarters and/or the Ft. Monmouth counterterrorism exercise "game" players temporarily at the Pentagon that morning.

This nexus is completely and totally beyond coincidence....
anderson.ath.cx:8000...



posted on Oct, 2 2007 @ 09:46 PM
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And he actually posts something that demolishes his claims.....Where does it say "hijacked"? The plane crashing into the Pentagon scenario is traced back to Air Florida Flight 90 that crashed into the 14th (I think its the 14th) street bridge...a literal stone throw from the Pentagon.



posted on Oct, 3 2007 @ 12:58 AM
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Its my understanding that the transponder is the device that sends the signal to ATC that the plane has been highjacked. Also theres a code for emergency and a code for loss of communication.

7700-emergency
7600-highjacking
7500-communications out

Now the official story is the transponders were turned off, most likely by the highjackers after securing the cockpits. So even if some of the pilots were able to set the numbers on the transponder, it was sudsequently turned off.

Now if there are recordings of what ATC saw on their screens, you might have seen a temporary highjack signal and loss of indentification.



posted on Oct, 3 2007 @ 12:50 PM
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Might have sen a temporary...?? What? What ' temporary? Either the highjack alert was sent , or it was not, and the OFFICIL story says that NOT ONE pilot managed to either : Key his mike and yell a mayday; or, to roll the four numbers on the transponder and hit the alert, which would have taken about TWO SECONDS.

Are we to believe that in ALL FOUR cases, the ' highjackers ' were able to : Breach the cockpit doors, slash and or whatever two strugling pilots to the point of diability or death, hauled their bodies from the cramped cockpit, assume the controls, and decativate the transponders, all within about 2-4 seconds top,s..faster if you accept the common sense approach that at least ONE pilot among EIGHT would have had a chance to at LEAST key a mike and call a Mayday. To believe in lightning speed and total lethal removals within a second or two is ludicrous. No way. The odds are beyond crazy.

NO highjack alerts were sent. There was of course at LEAST enough time, no matter HOW skilled and fast the highjackers were, to either key their mike and call a Mayday or to activate the highjack warning on ther transponder. The entire official story is so full of ' maybe 's ' and perhaps ' and ' could have ' that it stinks to high heaven. There has NEVER been a close examination of the alleged assaults on the cockpits, to any degree. Everyone was told that ' somehow ' the highjackers got into the cockpits and managed to, with 100% success and efficience rates in all four cases,disable the pilots and remove their bodies from a very tight and cumbersome area, stash them in the rear, out of the cockpit, and assume the controls.

As Mr. Lear points out, there was NO INDICATION whatsoever that any of the flights experienced radical maneuvers or rolling, which would have been the FIRST and MOST LIKELY things that would have happened in the case of a cockpit assault. None of the things happened that SHOULD have happened, and ALL of the things that should NOT have happened, did. What does that tell you? It tells me that the odds of eight pilots being overwhelmed INSTANTLY and with TOTAL success in all cases are beyond the pale of logic and reason.

The ONLY thing left after eliminating the official story, is the truth, which is remote highjacking and control. That is the ONLY scenario that meets all of the evidence fully, and is the most likley and obvious conclusion given the odds involved in the official account being true. Remote highjacking is the ONLY way to explain what is seen. To ask us to believe the official story is an insut to our intelligence and a desperate attempt to hide a smoking gun proof of an inside job.



posted on Oct, 3 2007 @ 01:12 PM
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I called a marina 8 miles from the alleged crash site of flight 93. They did find wreckage in the lake. This is impossible. I know this from my CAP training. Misinformation is being used to cover up something, something I may never know.



posted on Oct, 3 2007 @ 06:05 PM
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reply to post by eyewitness86
 


Once again it is my understanding that the transponder sends the highjacked signal, when turned off there is no more signal being sent. If the highjackers waited until one of the stewards was entering the cockpit then the door would be open at that point. If the highjackers killed one of the stewards and held another at knife point would the pilots commence with wild aerial menuvers? Would they do what the highjackers told them to do at that point?

Just a few things to think about before rendering a verdict on what exactly happened.



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