Ослабленный и уязвимый < > Weakened and Vulnerable

reply to post by neformore



If you are going to base millions of Americans on the few thousand who post in forums that are politically active than it is you who who is always looking for the next enemy.
Most Americans are entirely to wrapped up in everyday concerns to even seek out and post on forums and if they do they usually will post in forums of interest ie. moms in mom forum etc. Many Americans are financially unable to even own a computer much less have the extra funds for internet service. Those that do have the opprtunity to cruise the net stick to user friendly sites that link off of Yahoo, Google, AOL, MSN. They are looking for the latest stock prices, that new cookie recipe, what Britney did last night, how to handle the terrible 2's, the latest tech news, the secret code on that new game etc. Very few Americans are on politically minded forums spewing hate.
I am talking about the majority of Americans, America is mostly made up of the poor and low to moderate middle class, we are the majority and I can guarantee you that oil in Iraq or war in Iran is NOT what we think about. We do not want any enemies or wars, we want to live our lives in peace. The only times that the majority of Americans go on the attack verbally against other countries is when we have been bombarded with fearmongering from the nightly news, we fear for our children, for our loved ones, for America.
Hate us if you want but do not base that hate on very false beliefs. Hate our government for the atrocities they have afflicted, hate our rich for their greedy manipulations.
We have so many domestic issues in America, I honestly believe every American would rather have our government putting all the money and energy into America not into a new war.
Majority of us have been screaming at the top of our lungs to get out of Iraq come home and take care of America, so many of us that even the controlled media has had to mention our contention a few times.

It has nothing to do with ideology and everything to do with autonomy & simple power politics.

The US is attempting to create a state of global hegemony (calling an empire an "empire" is not so PC, since we like to pretend we're not one) and the other major players have a problem with that.

So yeah, it's in their interest to see our "global dominance" project fail.
Personally I think it's in the average American citizen's interest too - this empire is not being created to enhance our security, but to enhance the power of our leaders.

reply to post by UM_Gazz



Lots of things going on in Russia lately. Didn't Putin just dismiss his entire cabinet? Sorry, if it has been mentioned already. Found this:

www.financialsense.com...

Since 1998 I have publicly warned of Russia’s war preparations. The idea of preparing for nuclear war is absurd for most Americans, because the idea of nuclear war makes no sense in a consumer society. However that may be, Russia’s war preparations were as undeniable then as they are today. And Russia is not a consumer society. In the late 1990s Russia was refurbishing huge nuclear war bunkers and building underground cities. The only purpose such bunkers and cities could serve is in relation to a future nuclear war. For a country that was supposedly broke to be spending its precious resources on something so expensive, so far out of the way of “normal” expectations, seemed inexplicable. “Oh well,” people would shrug. “The Russians are used to doing this sort of thing. It gives them psychological comfort. Let them do what they want. It needn’t trouble us.” The public missed the fact, however, that Russia was continuing to violate arms control agreements. It was not admitting to all the nuclear warheads it possessed, and was not reliably disposing of them. It was developing new, deadly, biological and chemical weapons.

Our lack of imagination, our inability to grasp our enemy’s thought process, leads us to dismiss what is obvious. The Russians are getting ready. Why isn’t the American side responding? Why aren’t the Americans getting ready? We have been seduced by a series of comforting illusions. We are also absorbed in a struggle against Islamic terrorism (only we are at pains to admit the “Islamic” aspect of it). The American shopping mall regime produces stupefaction and complacency. The regime is predicated on economic optimism and entertainment. This optimism is about to be shattered. The Russians know this is going to happen, and they are preparing even as we fail to prepare.

reply to post by marg6043


We can turn off Chinas dreams and it looks like Americans are not going to be buying much from China if they can help it. Our government should cut them off because they are not playing the market fair like they had agreed to due before getting let in the WTO. If they try the economic bomb with us by cashing in we can say no you earned it illegally and your not getting it.
Remember after 9/11 all of America was united, Now just think what would happen if all Americans knew for certain we were threatened with our very existence.

reply to post by xmotex


Very well said. I wish the troops could be brought home to protect us and our borders. We have enough problems here at home to fix instead of trying to babysit the world. If we stopped giving countries aid we could have free health insurance and feed all the poor.

reply to post by UM_Gazz



"How many war fronts can the USA simultaneously sustain and for how long?"

I think people here would be quite suprised by the number of bases the US has all around the world.

You havent even began to see just how powerful the US fighting machine is.

I’ve read the original post and I couldn’t help to think that it really is strange to see more and more moderators with lots of points starting war mongering threads, or simply sidetrack topic discussions into clearly neo-conservative attitudes.

Does anybody care to build a pie-chart to visually display such ATS forum moderator trends? Data needed is clearly available, at least for now…

To he issue at hand, I see nothing more then the usual war mongering, and NOT a for intelligent discussion.

When ATS mod engages in public agitation by using age old war mongering propaganda and creates fear by scaring people with a sense of imminent threat, it’s time to reexamine what exactly is going on here.

Who uses such tactics? When were they used before and why? What usually happens after? And most importantly, statistically, are such opinions personal, or are they a part coordinated effort?

These are the question that should be asked when clearly war mongering topics such as these pop ap on ATS forums.

Good luck to the curios minds, I know you’ll needed, since I’ve been done this road before and know exactly what’s behind the turn.

To get those who are interested started, look into why America and Israel were the only true winners of WWII.

Don’t get stuck on the usual definition of victory because it deals with the populace, the masses, look into economic, industrial, FINANCIAL victory for the ELITE.

Then feel free to compare statistical data on wars of the 20th century and simply compare which country started most of them, and who PROFITED.

When there, connect the dots and see why war is profitable to one economic model, and why it is disastrous to another.

You’ll find that colonization and enslavement is profitable, that it’s simply a matter of PRIVATE interest being protected by the STATE.

Then hopefully you’ll find that in the 20th century colonialism and war profiteering was protected by state armies (East India co for example), while in the 21st century private interests USE state armies to run their PRIVATE wars. (Haliburton)

So in whose interests is it to vilify and make enemy of the only world power that is able to independently interfere with such PRIVATE colonial interests?

Look into it and your world will become much bigger then what they want you to believe, your world will also become more yours, and less of the slave world they want you to live in.

Give it a try. Maybe you’ll like living your own life instead of being a part of their system.

Originally posted by Copernicus
reply to post by LDragonFire

 

Interesting scenario. In any case, if USA attacks Iran and drags the middle east into a war, there is no question that the morally correct choice would be for the other super powers and other countries to attack the USA. Now, I dont dislike americans at all, or any other nationality on this planet, but USA must be stopped in its conquest for world domination and the New World Order, New American Century and whatever else they call it.

I really hope it doesnt come to that, but its in Bush hands now. Which is why im worried.

Question is, could the USA handle being attacked by Russia, China, Japan and many other countries at once? And would it accept defeat, or would it set off all its nuclear weapons to destroy most of the planet?


[edit on 29-9-2007 by Copernicus]

That would be very unlikely. The world economy is to interdependent for another world war to happen. Even then, no nation, or handful of them, are going to be very successful in attacking the richest most powerful nation on earth. The US has advantages over everyone else. Oceans, an extremely advanced war fighting machine, a massively armed populous that is very patriotic, and let us not forget the American allies.

reply to post by kosmicjack


Interesting article, but once again I do not believe we need to fear a direct military confrontation with Russia, their hand in our downfall will be not much more than what they have been doing, and that is aiding our 'enemies' with technologies and weaponry, also Russia and China have successfully delayed new UN sanctions to be imposed on Iran over the nuclear issue and you should expect them to continue to take actions like this aimed at stalling the Iranian nuclear issue ultimately raising the urgency and possibility of war. They are helping us into a conflict with Iran. If we go to war with Iran, will China use this as an opportunity to invade and reclaim Taiwan? Could Russia and/or China be helping terrorists who wish to attack the USA with weapons of mass destruction, or materials that could be used to build them?

They could be simply taking advantage of the current US administration's lust for war and control over the Middle Eastern oil rich territories. What will a war with Iran cost the USA on all levels while sustaining its military presence in Iraq and Afghanistan, as well as naval commitments to the defense of Taiwan if there are escalations in all of these regions?

reply to post by iskander


I am a moderator, but I am also a member, we all are, I speak my mind on any issue here that I am interested in.

There is no more importance to what I have to say in this or any discussion where I am expressing my thoughts or opinions than those of ANYone else.

I am happy you shared your thoughts as well.

Originally posted by SEEWHATUDO
Hate us if you want but do not base that hate on very false beliefs. Hate our government for the atrocities they have afflicted, hate our rich for their greedy manipulations.

Not sure that you read my whole post. You seem to have missed this bit

I'm afraid thats where the "generilasation" comes from. It may or may not be the case, but thats how it breaks down

I was happy to have served at the end of the cold war, running from Spetznauts and looking out for SMLms..(soviet mission liason military) while stationed in Germany in the late 80's, anyhow I do feel that the U.S. is spread thin, however, I think to just look at Iraq and Afghanistan and come to the conclusion we are weak and vulnerable is very easy to do, but more realistically the Russians may have grown back their military but it would not be prudent, they learned a great lesson in Afghanistan and don't want to go down that road I believe, but they have to flex their muscles I would not expect them to conduct military operations as though they were somehow neutered and not capable of defense or offense.

For anyone not really in the know of the U.S. Military capabilities globally it would be a mistake to conclude that, if we can't win in Iraq we must be weak, first of all I think reason the war is drawn out in Iraq is for political, tactical and purposeful reasons in the long run and also for battle hardening troops for possible more escalating and serious warfare in that region.

The U.S. Navy alone will obliterate just about any other navy and perhaps army and can launch both conventional and Nuclear weapons anywhere in relative stealth from subs and carriers not to mention putting nuclear capable planes in the aire, the air force has this capability also but from the air, there are just too many factors for a smart enemy like the Russians or Chinese to even think of attacking us directly without like catastrophic consequences for their regions and the possibility of mutual destruction.

I think appearances of weakness are perhaps not the actual reality though.

I am a moderator, but I am also a member, we all are, I speak my mind on any issue here that I am interested in.

Granted, and I hope you’ll agree that a certain amount of effort is invested into becoming a moderator, and that by default carries a certain degree of authority.

The point system reinforces such a position.

There is no more importance to what I have to say in this or any discussion where I am expressing my thoughts or opinions than those of ANYone else.

So true, and we al know what a giant loop hole an opinion really is. It’s kind of an in-between stop between ignorance and knowledge, so let’s look into it just a bit.

As the U.S. continues to sustain large military operations around the world and especially in the Middle East and with growing potential for new conflicts and wars is it not wise to suspect the Russians role in all of this?

Where is the fallacy in that question? Since fallacy is an error in rezoning, I think it’s important to establish what is what in order for ATS members to form their own opinions.

signature
Collaborative blog, The collective mind of thousands brought together at AboveTopSecret.com to deny ignorance.

I do believe it is your signature.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Here’s a quick list of fallacies;

www.fallacyfiles.org...

www.don-lindsay-archive.org...

www.unc.edu...

www.iep.utm.edu...

So which one of the fallacious arguments would best describe you opening question?

Before and even during the current Iraq war and invasion the Russians were assisting the Iraqis.

How about this one?

Your feedback and opinions are appreciated.

edit:spl



[edit on 30-9-2007 by iskander]

Originally posted by iskander

Before and even during the current Iraq war and invasion the Russians were assisting the Iraqis.

How about this one?

Do you really need clarification on the above point?

You can find a great deal of information related to that or any issue by typing a few key words into any good search engine.

Here is one that may be an interesting read for you:

www.therant.us...

The exodus from Iraq to Syria by Saddam's allies and the highest ranking members of Saddam's regime didn't end on April 9th, but it was fully brought to the attention of the world when American Special Forces intercepted a Russian convoy headed into Syria. The Russians said that the convoy was on a diplomatic mission following a convoy that carried Primakov himself. To this day no one knows for sure. Some reports claim that Primakov's convoy carried Russian WMD people, documents, and equipment that could not be left to fall into the hands of the Coalition. That Russian convoys as well as convoys from Saddam’s regime were assembled and rushing out of Iraq/into Syria during those last few days has been well-reported by the mainstream media, and summarily ignored then forgotten.

The contents of the convoy that American commandos attacked remain classified, but former deputy undersecretary of defense for international technology and security, John A Shaw, reports that American intelligence has documents confirming that Saddam's Regime paid Russia to provide security forces for Iraq's Russian-made arms and paid Russia to conduct counterintelligence activities that would prevent the Coalition from discovering the illegal arms supply line from Russia through Syria. This is consistent with the other aid Russia is known to have provided Saddam’s regime in its last days.

An archived news report:

www.foxnews.com...

Fox News confirmed that Russians were in fact selling the equipment to Baghdad and that Russian technicians were in the Iraqi capital this week, instructing Iraqis on how to use the devices. Russians were in Baghdad as of Friday but it's not known whether they have left.

"We are very concerned about reports that Russian firms are selling militarily sensitive equipment to Iraq," State Department spokeswoman Brenda Greenberg told Fox News. "Such equipment in the hands of the Iraqi military may pose a direct threat to U.S. and coalition armed forces."

Another link if you are interested in more reading material:

www.globalsecurity.org...

Of course the level of support the Russians provided Iraq prior to and during the invasion cannot fully be known however there is enough evidence available to conclude that it happened. You can find more on your own if you wish.

In Iran, Russian defense and weaponry contracts with the Iranians are much more extensive than were in Iraq. Also Russia is building the nuclear reactors for Iran under contact with the Iranians. The sophisticated high tech weaponry Russia has provided Iran remains a mystery, however many believe that Iran has the very best air defense system the Russians could offer them now in place.

I could go on, however these things are for the most part common knowledge.

The question I believe we should be exploring: Is the Russian motive to sign contracts with nations considered enemies to the west strictly for financial gain, or is it something else?

I am sure the Russians would rather have its greatest adversary weakened by wars and conflicts, why wouldn't they?

Ослабленный и уязвимый

that would explain this over the top reaction to everyting that happens in the MiddleEast- Why we are still stuck in a lossing military action.
but it does not explain why we are being assualted by our own gov't. Why are Our rights being systematically eliminated. Unless Bushco works for or with the Russians. so regardless our biggest enemy lurks with in .
Although those who despise or distrust the UN will ahte this- We are now at a point were we have lost so much control over our gov't we MUST ask for help. The public servants have taken contol and have denied US the right to Impeach a President and have worked in conjunction with this admin to subvert the rule of laws of this country. Treason.
Encourage the UN to levy charges of War Crimes against Bushco (public servants & profiteers alike). Once the head is off the beast we will be able to dispose of what remains of their reign. but until that happens we are caught in this web of deceite and conspiracy.

reply to post by phinubian


I agree with you phinubian. Just because the world hasn't seen the full capabilities of the US Military for a long time doesn't mean it has become weak or vulnerable. There are something like 250,000 US troops in Iraq, Afghanistan, and the Middle East area. That leaves only about 1.3 million others to defend the homeland. (2 million if you count NG and reserves).

Originally posted by phinubian
I was happy to have served at the end of the cold war, running from Spetznauts and looking out for SMLms..(soviet mission liason military) while stationed in Germany in the late 80's, anyhow I do feel that the U.S. is spread thin, however, I think to just look at Iraq and Afghanistan and come to the conclusion we are weak and vulnerable is very easy to do, but more realistically the Russians may have grown back their military but it would not be prudent, they learned a great lesson in Afghanistan and don't want to go down that road I believe, but they have to flex their muscles I would not expect them to conduct military operations as though they were somehow neutered and not capable of defense or offense.

For anyone not really in the know of the U.S. Military capabilities globally it would be a mistake to conclude that, if we can't win in Iraq we must be weak, first of all I think reason the war is drawn out in Iraq is for political, tactical and purposeful reasons in the long run and also for battle hardening troops for possible more escalating and serious warfare in that region.

The U.S. Navy alone will obliterate just about any other navy and perhaps army and can launch both conventional and Nuclear weapons anywhere in relative stealth from subs and carriers not to mention putting nuclear capable planes in the aire, the air force has this capability also but from the air, there are just too many factors for a smart enemy like the Russians or Chinese to even think of attacking us directly without like catastrophic consequences for their regions and the possibility of mutual destruction.

I think appearances of weakness are perhaps not the actual reality though.

And yet 19 men were able to hijack 4 American planes with box cutters and fly them into 2 skyscrapers, the Pentagon and kill over 3000 Americans.
Come on!!! Either we are weak and vulnerable or they allowed it to happen, which one???
I do believe that if Russia wanted to attack America it would be with alot more man power than 19, alot more force than boxcutters and actual advanced technology.
I am not in any way saying that I believe Russia would or could attack us, like I said I am most definatly not looking for an enemy but it just gets under my skin when we say how strong our military is and yet 9/11 happened on American soil.

Theres plenty of reasons for the world to fear america, but in reality elitists are using america and russia like they own them. Putin isn't very bright in my opinion, he appearently is having fun playing house and killing people. Same with Bush. They are in my opinion, merely using populaces they hate so much to test new weapons systems. These perceived threats of agression are just an excuse to do so. Your all being tricked by satan. and his merry band of genocidal uncaring fools.

[edit on 30-9-2007 by mastermind77]

Originally posted by kosmicjack
Lots of things going on in Russia lately. Didn't Putin just dismiss his entire cabinet? Sorry, if it has been mentioned already.

I think you'll find thats standard practice prior to the guy stepping down for an election.

Originally posted by neformore

Originally posted by SEEWHATUDO
Hate us if you want but do not base that hate on very false beliefs. Hate our government for the atrocities they have afflicted, hate our rich for their greedy manipulations.

Not sure that you read my whole post. You seem to have missed this bit

I'm afraid thats where the "generilasation" comes from. It may or may not be the case, but thats how it breaks down

Nope I read your whole post.
I am trying to offer you a different perception of American's.
Your first sentence showed that you had an instinctive negative perception of all American's, I am trying to show you that you may have been mistaken. If you see that your initial perception is skewed than I have done my job.
Changing the world one human being at a time