Originally posted by johnlear
Originally posted by Johnmike

Basically, I'm asking how you knew they turned. You (or someone else) had to have seen them somehow, and I'm lost as to how this was done.

Thanks for the post Johnmike. I can see that I should have waited until I had all the information I needed to answer your post correctly.

In answer to your question how the alpha particles were seen is Bob used the dry ice to make a fog. the alpha particle made a track in the fog. Since I didn't see it I don't know whether it was white, black or what the track was.

Thanks for your post.

One of the methods used to see the path that radioactive particles take is called Wilson Cloud Chamber. Mr Lear's description seems similar.

In the Wilson Cloud chamber method, observation relies on not observing the particle itself, but rather on observing the path made through a supersaturated vapor or "cloud". When the alpha particle is emitted it creates ions as it moves. The water drops then condense on the ions formed and can reflect a bright light that can be observed by the eye.

However considering the speed that the alpha particle travels ( 15,000 km/s) it would be very difficult to observe its path in a small confined space. However under carefully controlled circumstance it can be done.

I do not wish to champion Lear or anyone else, but the methods he described are very similiar.

Source: "On the Record" with investigative reporter George Knapp September 12, 1989. Interviewee: Bob Lazar.

Lazar said that the alien craft flew by amplifying gravity waves through use of a reactor and an "alien element"--atomic number 115--he also described this substance as an "ore" not found or synthesized on earth.

" Lazar: Inside that tower is a chip of Element 115 they just put in there. That's a super-heavy element. The lid goes on top. And as far as any other of the workings of it, I really don't know, you know, [such as] what's inside the bottom of it . . . 115 sets up a gravitational field around the top. That little wave guide you saw being put on the top: it essentially siphons off the gravity wave, and that's later amplified in the lower portion of the craft. But just in general, the whole technology is virtually unknown.

Knapp: Now we saw the model. We saw the pictures of it there. It looks really, really simple, almost too simple to actually do anything.

Lazar: Right.

Knapp: Working parts?

Lazar: None detectable. Essentially, what the job was was to back- engineer everthing, where you have a finished product and to step backwards and find out how it was made or how it could be made with earthly materials. There hasn't been very much progress.

Knapp: How long do you think they've had this technology up there?

Lazar: It seems like quite a while, but I really don't know.

Knapp: What could you do with an anti-matter generator? What does it do?

Lazar: It converts anti-matter . . . It doesn't convert anti-matter! There's an annihilation reaction. It's an extremely powerful reaction, a hundred percent conversion of matter to energy, unlike a fission or fusion reaction which is somewhere around eight-tenths of one percent conversion of matter to energy.

Knapp: How does it work? What starts the reaction going?

Lazar: Really, once the 115 is put in, the reaction is initiated.

Knapp: Automatic.

Lazar: Right.

Knapp: I don't understand. I mean, there's no button to push or anything?

Lazar: No, there's no button to push or anything. Apparently, the 115 under bombardment with protons lets out an anti-matter particle. This anti-matter particle will react with any matter whatsoever, which I imagine there is some target system inside the reactor. This, in turn, releases heat, and somewhere within that system there is a one-hundred-percent- efficient thermionic generator, essentially a heat-to-electrical generator.

Knapp: How is this anti-matter reactor connected to gravity generation that you were talking about earlier?

Lazar: Well, that reactor serves two purposes; it provides a tremendous amount of electrical power, which is almost a by-product. The gravitational wave gets formed at the sphere, and that's through some action of the 115, and the exact action I don't think anyone really knows. The wave guide siphons off that gravity wave, and that's channeled above the top of the disk to the lower part where there are three gravity amplifiers, which amplify and direct that gravity wave.

Knapp: In essence creating their own gravitational field.

Lazar: Their own gravitational field.

Knapp: You're fairly convinced that science on earth doesn't have this technology right now? We have it now at S-4, I guess, but we didn't create it?

Lazar: Right.

Knapp: Why not? Why couldn't we?

Lazar: The technology's not even—we don't even know what gravity is!

Knapp: Well, what is it? What have you learned about what gravity is?

Lazar: Gravity is a wave. There are many different theories, wave included. It's been theorized that gravity is also particles, gravitons, which is also incorrect. But gravity is a wave. The basic wave they can actually tap off of an element: why that is I' m not exactly sure.

Knapp: So you can produce your own gravity. What does that mean? What does that allow you to do?

Lazar: It allows you to do virtually anything. Gravity distorts time and space. By doing that, now you're into a different mode of travel, where instead of traveling in a linear method going from Point A to B, now you can distort time and space to where you essentially bring the mountain to Mohammad, you almost bring your destination to you without moving. And since you're distorting time, all this takes place in between moments of time."


This is the actual original source of the Lazar / Element 115 claims. This is it. So everything else is flowing from this data set.

Damn you, Dog, you posted that stuff and it's just too painful on the eyes!

Lazar claims that the efficiency of energy generation is 100% but according to the rest of his interview he has no way of knowing!

Originally posted by buddhasystem
Damn you, Dog, you posted that stuff and it's just too painful on the eyes!

Lazar claims that the efficiency of energy generation is 100% but according to the rest of his interview he has no way of knowing!

He's saying what now? I never quite know how to "understand" this stuff. On one level it doesn't read as something you can intellectually analyse. So I don't. But then there is the temptation to start following the threads of factoids around to see where they lead. Which is nowhere, it seems.

It's a real shame because the Biefeld / Townsend Brown antigravity stuff should be everywhere on ATS instead of which column inches are sucked away by eg Lazar. Oh well.

I would love to see a Biefeld-Brown thread but I would also love to see it begun by someone with a real physics background so that the first post was some good explanation and demystification that could hopefully head off at the pass some of the voodoo science cult nonsense posts.

Originally posted by IgnoreTheFacts
Maybe you will come back at me saying that if they went public on this they would all be killed, and it would be suppressed. Bull. Try me. Give it to me. I can guarantee you it wouldn't be suppressed. NOT possible in today's environment.

lol...and there goes your credibility...

Sorry, I post info on the wrong thread.

[edit on 21/1/08 by spacevisitor]

Firstly, I am a skeptic. But even though there are a lot of preposterous claims here, I have some questions assuming the story is correct:

1. If aliens gave us 115, why would they not give us experimental protocols, research and tools/designs/engineering training on how to use it effectively?
2. Why, oh why did you waste such a huge amount of one of the most valuable elements in the universe (?) on the dumbest experiment ever conceived?
3. What EXACTLY was the protocol of the experiment? Step by step replication instructions please. My university may have access to 115 in the next 5 years depending on grant applications, so I can ask the guys involved about the plausibility of the experiment.
4. What is the rationale for the 90 degree "uturn" of the particle? No force works like that in nature: you wouldn't see a "uturn" of a particle. Assuming you are talking about direction not spin, you would simply see a straight path, and the particle moving out then back. In all honesty I can't see it moving out in the first place if what you claim is correct, but until the protocol is explained I can't surmise. There is no logical explanation to why the 115 would cause a uturn like shape.
5. What was your hypothesis? What did you base your information on to make this hypothesis?
6. Have you or others done any other experiments on 115?

As a research scientist myself I am very skeptical of bob's claims, not yours. I believe you have been duped my friend.

Not only did the "magic moment" occur when you weren't looking, the material has never been verified by an independent source (to convince yourself!), the experiment protocol seems ludicrous and poorly documented and finally the experiment was not replicated in your presence.

John, I once had a "best friend" who I later found out (years later) spent most of his time lying to me and all others who knew him. I learned a valuable lesson early on from which I am grateful: trust *and* verify.

I understand you have a lot vested in this, but you must at least see that this scenario is a possibility. I agree that your explanation probably happened as you saw it, and that there is a possibility of it being correct. It's just the facts don't stack up.

By the way I am on this site because I love scifi and write it myself, but just had to register and post when stumbling on this thread due to its amazing lack of logic.

// sufu sci

Doghead and Buddhasystem, Why don't you guys just start you're own thread called- Slamming John Lear and Bob Lazar. This way you could get this attack mongering out of the way every day to more people and feel better about yourselves!! Is it fun bashing people that aren't even on these threads anymore or empowering. Buddha, Someone said you're writing a book!! Let me know when you're book is coming out, I'm assuming the title will be something like "The Knowledge of All Things". I've cleared out 2 complete bookshelves for this highly anticipated release!! We still might be able to save this planet with you're help Buddha!! I've also e-mailed the CLinton camp suggesting Hillary should consider hiring you as a senior advisor!! Think of the possibilities!! When she win's(with you're assistence of course), you could just dispose of Lazar + Lear!! maybe a plane crash, exposing JL as not even knowing how to fly!!
Obviously not every thing John Lear did was documented to the infinite degree!! I'm not a self proclaimed genius physicist but will keep my mind open on the overall issue of 115. The more you attack these guys the more I think you have a hidden agenda!! MAinstream science has been proven over time to be wrong about many things! I'd give you some examples but you already think you know EVERYTHING!! so why waste time. Somebody must have bullied you in school I think! and now you're the resident intellectual bully on ATS!! That being said have a wonderful and enlightening day gentlemen!! and try not to knock down any little kids today on your way to the bank! depositing your weekly check!
Tim Swisher- defender of those that are gone but not forgotten!!!

Originally posted by swish22
Doghead and Buddhasystem, Why don't you guys just start you're own thread called- Slamming John Lear and Bob Lazar.

Because I have no interest in "slamming" John or Bob, and neither does DogHead, from what I've seen. If somebody (and not necessarily John or Bob, there are other actors on this board) posts something which is unfounded and doesn't stand up to a simple critical analysis, then I am indeed interested in pointing this out.

Buddha, Someone said you're writing a book!!

I don't know who told you that, but your info is wrong (suprise?)

I've cleared out 2 complete bookshelves for this highly anticipated release!! We still might be able to save this planet with you're help Buddha!!

I think you would do well if you turn your hysteria dial waaaay to the left.

Originally posted by sufusci
Firstly, I am a skeptic. But even though there are a lot of preposterous claims here, I have some questions assuming the story is correct:
...snip...
2. Why, oh why did you waste such a huge amount of one of the most valuable elements in the universe (?) on the dumbest experiment ever conceived?

Well sufusci,

as you can find for yourself on the Web, Bob said that 2/3 of the available stock of "Element 115" were stolen from his apartment by burglars, and now he only keeps the remaining 1/3. So let alone experiments, Lazar apparently didn't care enough for this invlauable material to safeguard it. Laughable.

Swish,

When trying to look at the plausibility of a claim, we should be given as much detail as possible. Look at the awesome thread with the guy who coughed up some metal. He answered all relevant questions, and eventually the truth (even if mundane) was uncovered.

From what I have seen, not even the most basic questions have been answered. All questions that have probed the simplest things about this supposed breakthrough have been ignored. And yes I do expect things to be documented. To the nth degree. Remember, the claim is "this is the most important element in the universe". Would you not document a breakthrough that could change the world forever? And if you wouldn't, surely you simply aren't qualified to claim you are a scientist. Even my year 1 undergrads document better than this!!!!

Heres the story in a nutshell: "We stole it from the most secure place in the world, didn't bother to steal all the research the aliens gave us (to understand what/how to use it), we did a high-school level experiment on it and didn't document a thing. Oh and yeah we have a heap left over which could change the world and we hid it in vegas". Doesn't that seem a *little* strange to you?

Question my agenda if you want. Perhaps I am a government spy. But seriously, the government doesn't care about this otherwise these guys would be kaput. I want and do believe in paranormality when the evidence is good, but I will call BS when I see it.

I can tell you sincerely, EVERY scientist I know (thousands) are looking, striving day in day out for that next breakthrough that will make their career. This would be it for many of them if it were true. I'd love to get my hands on even a gram of the stuff (how about it????) because I would be the most recognizable scientist in the world within a year. Most others would be the same. The claim that "we" as a group are in any way involved in a conspiracy is laughable - we *WANT* to be the center of attention with a breakthrough: its our entire point of being!

// sufu sci

[edit on 14-2-2008 by sufusci]

Also: there is a vast difference between being open minded and stupid. As the great saying goes: "Don't be so open minded that your brains fall out!"

There has to be some lower limit to what you are going to accept. What if I claimed that pink unicorns materialised via the 4th quadrant hyperbeam and gave me the knowledge of the metaverse. Yours to know and own for 39.95. Would you buy?