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Element 115 question

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posted on Jan, 11 2008 @ 02:39 PM
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reply to post by buddhasystem
 


I agree with both buddhasystem and TheAvenger. There are tons of non-destructive, high sensible methods that utilize particle accelerators. For example, one of the most used is called PIXE. You can google it to find several good links explaining this method.

As the name suggests, you bombard your sample with an accelerated ion beam (usually proton) and the atoms that compose your sample are excited, emiting x-ray radiation. The exact energy of the x-rays (which can be seen "spread out" in a x-ray spectroscopy) corresponds to a specific Z. Not only that, but the number of x-ray photons of a given energy is proportional to the number of atoms of the correspondent element. Thus, we can tell precisely (as low as 1 ppm) how much of an element there is in the sample.

PIXE is (and can be used) in a wide range of applications. Nasa Mars' rovers themselves had a small particle accelerator to analyze, almost on the fly, Mars' soil composition. Louvre museum uses PIXE to characterize and identify art objects, like paintings.

Even with a proton beam, it would be safe to use PIXE to analyze element 115 sample. But as I posted earlier in the thread, there are several other similar x-ray methods that use, for instance, synchrotron radiation, like XANES.




posted on Jan, 11 2008 @ 05:13 PM
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reply to post by borek
 


What a pleasure it is to hear from you, borek. Sounds like you will have an enormous abount of knowledge to share with us.

As an 'armchair' physicist (not even that, really...just an average Joe who watches a lot of the Science Channel) I find anything brought into the discussion to be useful.

There is a phrase I heard somewhere...about knowing a little bit about a lot of different things. That would describe me, when it comes to physics. I use my analytical mind, using my basic knowledge...but keep an open compartment for new ideas to get inserted.

(sorry for the silly analogy)...



posted on Jan, 11 2008 @ 09:15 PM
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I just posted something on the "Venus" thread, about a few of us volunteering to do the actual experimentation with element 115 if Bob Lazar agrees to loan us a sample, which we will return. I feel that between Borek, Deezee, myself and TheAvenger, if they wish, we can do a lot of work to settle this once and for all. We shall then write an official report and post it here on ATS. If we manage a publication in a peer-reviewed journal, Bob will be on the list of authors. How's that?



posted on Jan, 11 2008 @ 09:52 PM
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Fine with me. Unfortunately, I often wonder if we're dealing with a cargo cult when we look at UFO propulsion systems. Still, I have an open mind on any science that can be proven with at least the preponderance of the evidence.

[edit on 1/11/2008 by TheAvenger]



posted on Jan, 11 2008 @ 09:53 PM
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I already replied in the affirmative in the Lear's Venus thread -- I will bankroll any and all experiments.



posted on Jan, 12 2008 @ 12:05 AM
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buddhasystem
If it's real, we all stand to get the Noble prize.

buddhasystem, please explain who the 'we' will be?

If the 'we' includes you, why do you think that you should be awarded a nobel prize for something that someone else obtained?

That quote of your's represents everything that's wrong with mainstream, peer reviewed science - it's just a popularity contest.

I seriously doubt that Lazar will ever let you touch the hidden sample. If it is indeed 115, then he would be far too smart to let mainstream science in on the secret.



posted on Jan, 12 2008 @ 12:54 AM
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All that is being proposed is to test a sample as far as I understand matters. I am happy to pay for that, glad to do it.

Lazar is currently making no money from the sample. He stands to make a rental for us using this if that is how he plays the game- I make no bones about it, I will pay him a bribe for the honour of proving him right.



posted on Jan, 12 2008 @ 01:17 AM
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Originally posted by DogHead
He stands to make a rental for us using this if that is how he plays the game- I make no bones about it, I will pay him a bribe for the honour of proving him right.

I dare state that if Lazar was after money, then he would have cashed in long ago while his story was still 'hot' in the mainstream media.

Sometimes, money just isn't enough to budge some people.



posted on Jan, 12 2008 @ 01:25 AM
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-but it's always been more than enough to budge Lazar.

This is starting to be a little bit like the Russian "alien graveyard" scenario from last year that I got dragged into.

Anyway, the offer stands, let's get all prepared.



posted on Jan, 12 2008 @ 11:43 AM
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I want to stay optimistic, but i just hope it's not Bob himself, who puts an end to this before it even starts.

If 115 is just an element that propells book sales instead of flying saucers, it will be very hard to analyze it indeed.

I'm sure many of us would love to be prooven wrong and i am willing to contribute my time and resources for free, as long as it is in my power to help.

I guess we shall see as this progresses. In any case it should be interesting.


P.S. Is this now the correct thread for our project or are we going to create a new one?



posted on Jan, 12 2008 @ 12:03 PM
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reply to post by tezzajw
 



Originally posted by tezzajw
Something drives those UFOs. I guess one day, when our mainstream physicists catch-up and work it out, then we can all have our own UFO too.


Hi tezzajw, perhaps you find this interesting?

Source; www.disclosureproject.org...


Although they all spoke of the reality of the UFO phenomena, many also spoke of covert projects dealing with antigravity, zero point energy technologies and development of alien reproduction vehicles (ARVs) by US black project and covert interests. The following excerpted quotes from these witnesses support the above contentions.

Dan Morris,
UFOs are both extraterrestrial and man made.

Dr. B., (name withheld since he still works in this area) is a scientist and engineer.
Anti-gravity. As a matter of fact, I used to go out to the Hughes in Malibu. They had a big think tank up there. Big anti-gravity projects; I used to talk to them out there. I’d give them ideas, because they bought all my equipment. But the American public will never, never hear about that.” . . . “This flying disc has a little plutonium reactor in it, which creates electricity, which drives these anti-gravity plates. We also have the next level of propulsion, it is called virtual field, which are called hydrodynamic waves.

Captain Bill Uhouse,
“We operated it with six large capacitors that were charged with a million volts each, so there were six million volts in those capacitors.” . . . “There weren’t any windows. The only way we had any visibility at all was done with cameras or video-type devices.” . . .“Over the last 40 years or so, not counting the simulators - I’m talking about actual craft - there are probably two or three-dozen, and various sizes that we built.”

A.H.
Most of the craft operate on antigravity and electrogravitic propulsion. We are just about at the conclusion state right now regarding antigravity. I would give it maybe about 15 years and we will have cars that will levitate using this type of technology. We’re doing it up at Area 51 right now. That’s some of the stuff that my buddy worked on up at Area 51 with Northrup, who lives now in Pahrump, Nevada. We’re flying anti-gravity vehicles up there and in Utah right now…”

Lieutenant Colonel Williams,
“There was one facility at Norton Air Force Base that was close hold - not even the wing commander there could know what was going on. During that time period it was always rumored by the pilots that that was a cover for in fact the location of one UFO craft.”
Note that all he knew was of the rumor, however, it is confirmed by the next testimony, which also confirms some of the comments made by Captain Uhouse.

Mark McCandlish
A colleague, with whom he studied, has been inside a facility at Norton Air Force Base, where he witnessed alien reproduction vehicles, or ARVs, that were fully operational and hovering. He states that the US not only has operational antigravity propulsion devices, but we have had them for many, many years, and they have been developed through the study, in part, of extraterrestrial vehicles over the past fifty years.

A close friend,
“Well, this craft was what they called the Alien Reproduction Vehicle; it was also nicknamed the Flux Liner. This antigravity propulsion system—this flying saucer—was one of three that were in this hangar at Norton Air Force Base. [Its] synthetic vision system [used] the same kind of technology as the gun slaving system they have in the Apache helicopter: if [the pilot] wants to look behind him, he can pick a view in that direction, and the cameras slew in pairs. [The pilot] has a little screen in front of his helmet, and it gives him an alternating view. He [also] has a little set of glasses that he wears—in fact, you can actually buy a 3-D viewing system for your video camera now that does this same thing—so when he looks around, he has a perfect 3-D view of the outside, but no windows. So, why do they have no windows? Well, it’s probably because the voltages that we’re talking about [being] used in this system were probably something between, say, half a million and a million volts of electricity.” Brad Sorensen stated that at the ARV display, “a three star general said that these vehicles were capable of doing light speed or better.”


Special important supplementary info,


All of these witness testimonies do not prove the existence of a successful US covert program in antigravity technologies. Only the demonstration of such craft coupled with the accompanying government and technical specification documents would ‘prove’ this. However, these testimonies coupled with information from other substantial sources such as Nick Cook’s new book mentioned below, strongly supports this contention.



[edit on 12/1/08 by spacevisitor]



posted on Jan, 12 2008 @ 04:06 PM
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stanton friedman said lazar had 500 pounds of element 115 and he was at a lab and every time they made atoms of the element 115 the half life was less than a second

but that's the difference bob had a piece of element 115 already formed, if you are trying to make it in a lab and it keeps reacting causing w/e creating ENERGY you are only proving correct the fact it generates energy and possibly enough to power the lazar "sport" model craft that he worked on

also friedman can point out lazars records (school) are gone but he doesn't talk about bob being at los alamos in their phone directory or newpaper

[edit on 12-1-2008 by OSSkyWatcher]



posted on Jan, 12 2008 @ 04:42 PM
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I am still happy to bankroll the experiment, and indeed it seems it may be important to go through as many steps as we can even if, perhaps especially if, Lazar is not forthcoming.

If we prepare everything in a forthright, honest and credible way and then the sample is not offered when there is no reason why it would not be offered, I consider that the same as someone refusing a polygraph and I call bullshwit on Lazar. Not necessarily on everything else, but on him.



posted on Jan, 12 2008 @ 04:48 PM
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Originally posted by DogHead
and then the sample is not offered when there is no reason why it would not be offered, I consider that the same as someone refusing a polygraph and I call bullshwit on Lazar.

Well, good for you. I'm glad that you have prejudged things to your own satisfaction.

You still haven't considered that no amount of money will force Lazar to reveal his piece of 115. You may operate and be bought off with money, but that doesn't mean that everyone operates the same way.

Maybe you should put your cheque book away and face reality. People don't have to do what you want them to, just because you are offering to shove money in their face.

[edit on 12-1-2008 by tezzajw]



posted on Jan, 12 2008 @ 04:56 PM
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Originally posted by tezzajw

buddhasystem
If it's real, we all stand to get the Noble prize.

buddhasystem, please explain who the 'we' will be?

If the 'we' includes you, why do you think that you should be awarded a nobel prize for something that someone else obtained?

That quote of your's represents everything that's wrong with mainstream, peer reviewed science - it's just a popularity contest.


Your tally of what exactly is "wrong" with the "mainstream" science is getting really, really old. Right now, we don't know that what Bob has in his possession is in fact element 115. And you don't know either. All you have is John Lear's story about how he stared at a lantern mantel and a piece of dry ice for some period of time and didn't see jack. If this supposedly "superior" science does better than what you call "mainstream" science, I'll give it a good laughter.

As far as I am concerned, Bob didn't do anything to prove anything. So heck, we can put him on the list of authors, but let people who can actually do measurements do their jobs. Because sure as hell, Bob doesn't come across as one.


I seriously doubt that Lazar will ever let you touch the hidden sample. If it is indeed 115, then he would be far too smart to let mainstream science in on the secret.


My guess is that you are right and Lazar will never give us a sample of 115, because that sample is most likely (really, really, really) fake.



posted on Jan, 12 2008 @ 05:02 PM
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Originally posted by tezzajw
You still haven't considered that no amount of money will force Lazar to reveal his piece of 115.


On the contrary, DogHead has fully considered the possibility that no amount of money will force Lazar to reveal his piece of 115, simply because he doesn't have one! And I join DogHead in that consideration.


People don't have to do what you want them to, just because you are offering to shove money in their face.


This looks pretty pathetic. Somebody wants to do something very real in order to answer some of the biggest questions of our time, and you try to do a high horse superiority thing on them? Sheesh. If you don't want to know whether the piece is real or not, you lack curiosity but have excessive gullibility instead. Yup.



posted on Jan, 12 2008 @ 05:17 PM
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Originally posted by buddhasystem
Your tally of what exactly is "wrong" with the "mainstream" science is getting really, really old.

It's actually quite refreshing when I see some 'mainstream' scientists on these forums happy to explain why some things can't work - despite the fact that they do. Something has to be wrong with some mainstream scientists for them to be so short-sighted.



Right now, we don't know that what Bob has in his possession is in fact element 115. And you don't know either. All you have is John Lear's story about how he stared at a lantern mantel and a piece of dry ice for some period of time and didn't see jack.

True. So what's your point? Only John, Bob and the other person (who's name I forget) know where the piece of 115 was hidden. Most likely, only Bob knows if it was really 115.

If it is 115, then do you really think that Bob is going to produce it for you, so that you can inform the Nobel committee of your discovery? No way! If you read everything that John wrote about the three pieces of 115, then you could probably understand that it will stay hidden for a very long time indeed, if it is really 115.

If it's not 115, then it still won't be produced, as Bob won't out himself as a fraud.

Either way, buddhasystem, the piece of 115 will not be produced, so I don't know why you're continuing to perpetuate your fantasy that it will be made available to you for your tests and your Nobel Prize.

Of course, that leaves you with a 'hollow' victory, as you'll be able to claim that Bob and John can't support their story with evidence. Big deal. If you read what John writes, he's not expecting you or anyone else to believe him or Bob. He's not selling it to you and he's not offering Kool-Aid either. The piece of 115 is hidden and no Nobel seeking scientists will get their hands on it for their self-glorification.

Perhaps, one day, when the time is right, the powers that be will be prepared to let us all in on the 'mainstream discovery' of 115 as a power source for a gravity shielding craft. Who knows? It's all great speculation.



posted on Jan, 12 2008 @ 05:20 PM
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Originally posted by tezzajw
You may operate and be bought off with money, but that doesn't mean that everyone operates the same way.

Maybe you should put your cheque book away and face reality. People don't have to do what you want them to, just because you are offering to shove money in their face.


I just read this again and realized just how offensive and ridiculous this is. A generous person wants to donate his money, for gossake, to advance research in the field of UFO and exotic science. Instead of offering to wipe dust off his shoes, as a sign of deep gratitude, you proceed to toss insults -- implying that he's someone that can be "bought off". These are big words coming from a small mouth. You didn't offer jack to help resolve the mystery, Sir.

Maybe it is you instead, and not DogHead, who should face reality. You don't fight ignorance. You fight fiercely to protect it, because it's so damn comfortable.



posted on Jan, 12 2008 @ 05:26 PM
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Originally posted by tezzajw
Of course, that leaves you with a 'hollow' victory, as you'll be able to claim that Bob and John can't support their story with evidence.


Certainly, Sir. In fact, you seem to recognize that fact, that there is no evidence whatsoever. What is more, there is a feeble attempt at fabrication of evidence that is being easily debunked. It's just amazing, tezz, what you can swallow.



posted on Jan, 12 2008 @ 05:36 PM
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Originally posted by buddhasystem
I just read this again and realized just how offensive and ridiculous this is. A generous person wants to donate his money, for gossake, to advance research in the field of UFO and exotic science.

Maybe you should read more of what has been stated here, buddhasystem.

Sure, at face value, DogHead's offer is generous. I do not dispute this. It almost appears to be noble. I do not dispute this. This should happen more often. I do not dispute this.

However, when DogHead already states this: "I consider that the same as someone refusing a polygraph and I call bullshwit on Lazar" (Quote from DogHead) BEFORE the experiment has taken place - it really shows that there's an agenda in place. That remark from DogHead clearly shows that unless Bob is prepared to play along and produce the sample, that he is to be condemned.

From that perspective, DogHead's offer is loaded with one of compliance - otherwise, he's going to call "bullshwit" (DogHead's word) on Bob. Comply or be insulted. That's the choice that DogHead is giving Bob.

Money does not buy off people to force them to do things, buddhasystem. Bob has every right to refuse to produce the sample, which in this case means that he will be labelled as "bullshwit" (DogHead's words) by DogHead.

We can see the result of the experiment before it even begins. It's too bad that DogHead didn't kindly allow Bob to refuse, without prejudging him as "bullshwit" (DogHead's word) for not providing the sample.



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