Its official – U.S. missile defense forces nuclear arms race.

Originally posted by mad scientist
I only wish I had the time and patience with Iskander to articulate myself that well.

This is coming from the member which made ATS history by getting the most consecutive warnings.....

How were you going to "articulate" yourself again?





And is there any reason why your choosing to post with your second account Rogue1?

Originally posted by danwild6
The Soviet Union and the US inspected each others arsenals to insure that each other were decommissioning nuclear and strategic assets as part of nuclear disarmament.

But those SALT treaties where compromises from each party involving a much more important issue than interceptor missiles which may or may not be getting upgraded. I'm fairly sure that the Soviets decommissioned a few missiles and later hide them in underground complexes, although I never went to confirm the story

The free skies agreement could easily be used to determine accurately the number of interceptors stays at the agreed levels.

The Open Sky treaties aren't particularly useful if those times are hidden underground or in silos skin the model and the number of missiles can be hidden from the cameras. Spy satellites which be more useful but I believe its more of a good will gesture between the America and Russia since both sides could easily use other methods.

There is a need to give a few days notice which gives each side to shuffle or hide there equipment which defeats the whole purpose of having these free flights

I'm not sure those east European countries such as Poland have ratified the treaty which only permits limited numbers of flights per year

EDIT: Poland did ratify it

[edit on 30-9-2007 by chinawhite]

Originally posted by uberfoop
Particle beam weapons still aren't in any practical buildable form. The only currently known existing program, Medusa, still hasn't been tested, and it will likely be a while before it is at all deployable.


For right now, no, the US still isn't crushing it's MAD concept. MAD still applies; Russia has not enough s-400's to get our missiles, and our Patriots can't hit Topol-M's for ****.

]

You are under the false guidance of a controlled media. The particle beam cannon was successfully tested by Russia in 1972. It is a simple design providing there is a nuclear generator of the particle source. Now the "Y" beam is another matter completely, that is a ways off. I know people on the original program it can be done but would take about 6 to 8 years of non interrupted funding. Of course politicians can not control particle beams as they can lasers (sell off defeating information) so the particle beam became "very complicated" and oh the recordable fall out is unacceptable no, my no, like a thermo nuclear device blowing over head would be better?
The THEL was successfully tested by Israel in taking down various missiles and was to be tested on artillery next before the funding was halted.
I have worked on our nuclear defense program and MAD is just plain STUPID. Russia has 500 megaton warheads that could affect the wobble of our planet. NO matter where they go off (they are pointed at China now). Global warming hell it could be Global ignition.
MAD is like saying a bee will not sting you unless you upset it. Of course it is up to what the bee considers upsetting. With new members coming onboard the nuclear brotherhood this concept grows feebler as each day passes.
I will stand with Nikoli Tesla and push for a "machine" such as THEL to end all large scale wars.
I encourage everyone to look at the THEL program and call their congressman to push for funding. It would save an awful lot of American troops.
PS been in war zones the Patriots can't hit S*@t.

reply to post by Brother Stormhammer

Ahh...now I understand. Your position is so morally correct and so intellectually impregnable that anyone who dares disagree with your position is either a brainwashed robot, or a paid 'disinfo' agent? The picture becomes much clearer now.

Nope, and that’s precisely why I pointed this out;

But the six scientists, whose backgrounds include elite American universities, research labs and high levels of government, said in interviews that Russia's concerns were justified

The disagreement would not be with ME, but with the sources listed ABOVE!

That is why I made my statements!

My position? Sitting in my comfortable chair with a glass of tea on a coaster beside my mouse. That's my usual position when discussing anything on the internet. If you want my opinion on colonial expansion and / or slavery, start a thread on the subject.

I too like tea. I get my shipped mail order, I can’t drink the usual mass processed swill.

“Diplomacy with out arms is like music with out instruments.” Diplomacy of colonialism requires an entire orchestra of arms, and anti-missile defense is the brass section. If you’d prefer sticking to less figurative analogies, I’ll be more then happy to abide.

I was under the impression that this particular thread was about the impact of the U.S. deploying an anti-missile defense system in western Europe. Did I miss something, or are you just building straw men in honor of the upcoming Hallow'een holiday?

It is about the impact ON Europe, and American taxpayer. Straw men? My wife does most of the decorations, and she likes more gothic then country.

It's 'bear', as in carry...not 'bare' as in naked. If you're going to rant at me, make an attempt to do it right. In the spirit of your 'colonialism and slavery' snipe above, I feel obligated to ask if you are a sexist pig, since you seem to think only the words of a "GUY" would have any credibility. I happen to be at least enlightened enough to think that women can speak to technical or political subjects.

It’s along shot but why not, I like to think things though, it tends to work - “bare credibility”;

Elisabeth Eaves was born and raised in Vancouver. She has a master's degree in international affairs from Columbia University and has worked as a journalist for Reuters.

Bare : The Naked Truth About Stripping (Live Girls)
by Elisabeth Eaves

www.enotalone.com...

Did I mention that I’m a tea drinker as well? Coffee is a good stimulator for activities, but tea is really good for reading, I find…

I am a sexist pig? I just asked my wife that, and she said “sometimes”. Hey, at least I never cheated on her, we got together “sometime” in the 20th century, and I sure as hell deserve a little leeway when I discuss feminism, its origins, its “mission”, who paid for the movement and what the effects are.

Here’s an example;

The term "feminist stripper" may be ironic, but it's "not an oxymoron," journalist Eaves explains, as she looks back on her own experiences working naked.

I’m just funny that way.

Here’s the cherry on top;

“Stiffed: The Betrayal of the American Man (Paperback)”

Personally, I have a hard copy.

Just a heads up, the racial card would not make a play on me either – Gil Scott Heron.

Keep trying though.

Care to point out a time when the U.S. protested the deployment of Soviet anti-aircraft missiles (as opposed to IRBMs) in Cuba? I'm wondering if you remember the Cuban Missile Crisis. It wasn't touched off by SAM sites.

It was touched off by offensive American posturing, simple as that. Anti-missile system in Russian back yard is also offensive posturing, just as US admitted creation, funding and support of so called “orange revolutions”.

Remember when Condoleezza Rice openly stated that Pentagon has an entire office dedicated to overthrow of Putin and his cabinet? That was a good one.

You might ask the people of Czechoslovakia, Poland, and Hungary about those 'war mongering Ruskies'. Oh, I forgot, only the U.S. invades countries and kills people.

Primarily because the graph you're demanding would be a waste of free time that I really don't have.

That’s a shame, because it already exists, even in wiki.

For one thing, the 'action-reaction' cycle that you so badly want to see isn't clear cut thanks to little items like the need for research and development.

Sorry, it is as clear cut as it gets and has been for a LONG time, its called “generational development.” Did you mention a long term paper?


GenDev concept description is easily gogled, but for a more in depth glance, this is a good read;

Arms Diffusion: The Spread of Military Innovation in the International System (Issues in Globalization) (Hardcover)

Your rather simplistic action-reaction motivation for the arms race during the Cold War also leaves out one of the primary drivers behind the West's push for tactical and theater range weaponry...the immense Soviet conventional force in Europe.

I’m sure you’ll agree that on order to reach depth, one has to get through simplistic action-reactions, and I’m glad we’re getting there.

“immense Soviet conventional force in Europe” Reason?

Here’s my question, “to the victor go the spoils”, 1945 Yalta Conference, the Big Three, what were the spoils Stalin was there to negotiate given that Soviet forces accounted for over 80% of German losses, while taking the heaviest casualties of all allied forces combined?

Was there an economic (reconstruction) aspect involved, including the conditions of Soviet pull out from contested territories?

I hope you’ll have some free time to answer those simple questions, I’d love to discuss their relevance to the current anti-missile concept.

You've already read it. The U.S. plans to install one (1) radar, and 10-12 interceptors. It's right there in the description of the system. Plain English is hard, sometimes. Now, take a look at the budget authorizations, and you'll see that there's funding for exactly one (1) radar, and 10-12 interceptor missiles.

That issue was covered in the articles we’re discussing, and you are simply repeating the position of Mr. Baker Spring, an NCA at the Heritage Foundation, it being a conservative think tank.

Shall we stop here or go into what kind of work such think tanks actually do?

reply to post by Brother Stormhammer



“So we already learned on the mistakes of our past, and there is a law somewhere that guarantees that American people will not be threatened by retaliatory actions from another nation?”

Not sure where this came from, but 'probably not', and 'no, but I really wish there was', to answer your questions in order.

Personally I don’t particularly enjoy discussing disappearing principals of law, so I’ll just summaries;

casus belli verses habeas corpus, or how provocation and justification of illegal war jeopardizes individual freedom.

Technical capability for missile defense has existed in demonstrable form since June 3, 1960, when a Hercules scored a contact kill vs a Corporal rocket over White Sands.

SALT treaty rings a bell? Actually, my very ATS name has a coincidental association with the topic, particularly OKA. Look into that one.

Your 'example' has little, if anything, to do with missile defense (which makes it fit in with a depressing amount of your post).

I’ll fairly say that both of our examples are wrong. I make silly examples in order to get through and avoid a waste of time.

A better analogy would be "We can't give our Police officers bulletproof vests! That will just provoke an arms race on the streets! Criminals will just get bigger guns, and feel threatened by those armored officers!"

There is a clearly documented arms race chronology here as well.

High capacity semi-auto pistols kicked of the arms race and forced police department to retire revolvers in favor of semi-autos. Trust me, I’m well informed on this issue and you analogy is completely incorrect. To sum it up prior to 9/11 and Patriot act, it is the North Hollywood shootout that allowed local police departments to purchase military surplus M-16 assault rifles to be used by street officers.

In case of US anti-missile shield plans for Europe, both NATO and Russia are pointing guns at each other, but it’s NATO that’s putting on the vest. I’m not sure if you’re familiar with the concept of strategic advantage, but when one party enjoys a higher degree of protection from an equally armed opponent, it increases the first strike capability against the opponent with lesser degree of protection.

As for the rest of your post, I snipped it. I'll let the authors of the other parts speak for themselves.

All the power to you, no skin of my back.

Originally posted by Comforter

You are under the false guidance of a controlled media. The particle beam cannon was successfully tested by Russia in 1972. It is a simple design providing there is a nuclear generator of the particle source. Now the "Y" beam is another matter completely, that is a ways off. I know people on the original program it can be done but would take about 6 to 8 years of non interrupted funding.

LOL of course you do. You know them hoe from reading abot thm on the internet ? haha.

The THEL was successfully tested by Israel in taking down various missiles and was to be tested on artillery next before the funding was halted.

Tested on artillery to what purpose ?

I have worked on our nuclear defense program and MAD is just plain STUPID. Russia has 500 megaton warheads that could affect the wobble of our planet. NO matter where they go off (they are pointed at China now).

This sounds like a complete load of garbage. 500MT are a complete waste of resources. You really are making up alot of things here.

You should really stop making up things about yourself, your credibility suffers. People here are stupid, they see straight through these fantasies as well.

Originally posted by Comforter
Russia has 500 megaton warheads that could affect the wobble of our planet.

I'm going to just ignore the rest of your post, as this owns all of your credibility. Nuclear fusion may be powerful, but the teller-ulam design would still need a pretty bloody heavy warhead to reach 500 megatons. What would they launch it with? 20 copied Saturn-V rockets strapped together?

Even a 100-megaton warhead (aka the largest that ACTUALY exists) takes a heavy bomber to lug around, and even that is pretty much a suicide mission; even if you successfully got undamaged by the bomb (a feat which probably only a tu-160 could pull), your fuel would likely be just about gone from traveling around with a 27-ton warhead (the weight could be reduced some due to modern equipment and useage of a more efficient fuel, probably down to like 15 tons).
I mean really, the Tsar Bomba was a political move and way higher yield than Russia would consider for something practical, and those were the days when people started miniaturizing and yield-reducing to work for the newer missile tech which was far better for delivery.

500 megatons? ROFL.

[edit on 30-9-2007 by uberfoop]

reply to post by mad scientist


The only one reading the net must be you "mad scientist". You say you know me?
Do you think I do not know it takes 10 times the fissionable product to increase explosive mass by a multiple of 4?
That is the point no one but Russia will ever have war heads of such a magnitude as their 500's. They also have a payload of "Red Rain" gas a bio-fungal agent.

Take a look at thorium as a fuel for commercial nuclear reactors since all you know is what you have read on the net.
As for my credentials they are well in tact. I suggest you see my previous posting before you so foolishly make an enemy. You are in error.
In the words of Alex Haig “If you knew everything I know you would know I am right”.
I have provided gifts to this sight that were paid for by lives and hard work, now show the courtesy to keep your rude remarks for others.

Oh and the purpose of the THEL taking down artillery is to keep soldiers behind it from being turned to hamburger. It is to show how rapid it can acquire targets.
The 500 Mega-ton war heads were built in the 60’s there were five constructed at that time. This truly is ATS. Oh PS KMA.

Originally posted by Comforter
reply to post by mad scientist

 

The only one reading the net must be you "mad scientist". You say you know me?

I have read many many things about this over the years and you are the only one asserting any of this. Show me some proof. You alleged that you know people who worked on some secret projects, yet your arguments come across as child like. It is highly unlikely, I would say impossible that you have any link to what you claim.

Do you think I do not know it takes 10 times the fissionable product to increase explosive mass by a multiple of 4?
That is the point no one but Russia will ever have war heads of such a magnitude as their 500's. They also have a payload of "Red Rain" gas a bio-fungal agent.

Erm so what is your point ? Where do you get this information ? All you give us is your word, which doesn't seem to carry much weight with anyone ine here.

You talk about about 500MT warheads but give no specs, no inormation on delivery, NOTHING. Why ? beause you are making it up.

Take a look at thorium as a fuel for commercial nuclear reactors since all you know is what you have read on the net.

I knoiw alot about thorium, what is your point ? Sounds like a little kid trying to pretend he knows something.

As for my credentials they are well in tact. I suggest you see my previous posting before you so foolishly make an enemy. You are in error.

Yes I have seen your posts before and seen a simlair calim amde by you of 500MT warheads compeltely ripped aprt by other members. Which further reinforces what credentials ? LOL.

I have provided gifts to this sight that were paid for by lives and hard work, now show the courtesy to keep your rude remarks for others.

Completel BS, once again trying to bignote yourself. Your posts are kinda funny though.

Originally posted by Comforter
Oh and the purpose of the THEL taking down artillery is to keep soldiers behind it from being turned to hamburger. It is to show how rapid it can acquire targets.
The 500 Mega-ton war heads were built in the 60’s there were five constructed at that time. This truly is ATS. Oh PS KMA.

The US has already tested teh THEL on artillery rounds a few years ago. Nothing new there. I thought you were implying they were going to mount THEL type lasers on artillery.

ONce again MR I have a wild imagination show me some information, if you're so in the know LMAO.

Originally posted by mad scientist
This sounds like a complete load of garbage. 500MT are a complete waste of resources. You really are making up alot of things here.

They are called doomsday devices. Nuclear weapons big enough to destroy the earth or salted with cobalt or other extremely reactive material to kill any living thing.

Might not be true but you cant put it past the Russians to design something like that

Originally posted by chinawhite

Originally posted by mad scientist
This sounds like a complete load of garbage. 500MT are a complete waste of resources. You really are making up alot of things here.

They are called doomsday devices. Nuclear weapons big enough to destroy the earth or salted with cobalt or other extremely reactive material to kill any living thing.

Might not be true but you cant put it past the Russians to design something like that

Well according to the person who suggested they have these 500MT, they are pointed at China and there are 5 of them. He also claimed that these could affect the wobble of the planet, which is complete BS. It would need a far far larger relaese of energy to do that. He doesn't say they are salted with cobalt or any other material that could casue long term radiation. Actually he doesn't say anythng execpt Russia supposedly have 5 of them. For a person who claims to be personally aquainted with people who work on top secret projects and to have been involved somehow in America's nucear defence, he sounds remarkably childlike.

The 500MT bomb sounds vaguely familiar to a ficiton book I read a long time ago. Wouldn't surprise me if that's where his information came from.


Here is some more from comforter

Originally posted by cComforter
My only solace is in the knowledge that Russia will someday use two of her five hundred megaton warheads with huge bio-fungal payloads to irradiate these damn human cockroaches that collectively are called China.
www.abovetopsecret.com...

Wait there's more

Originally posted by cComforter
I know the Iranians were constructing a facility with prints from N. Korea to build missiles that would reach 5,000 Kilometers with upgrades soon to be supplied (this was 2004) that would make missiles that would reach 10,000 Kilometers. I know because I was nearby across the boarder at the time with a group keeping an eye on them.
www.abovetopsecret.com...

Originally posted by cComforter
I pushed a senator into investigating contractor money be directed to insurgent supporters. Decided to take the money I was offered not to release electronic files proving this seeing as many of the people I was working with specialize in shallow graves. It was that or stand once again in unemployment with only my integrity to keep me company. I look on it as at least costing the “company” a little money.
www.abovetopsecret.com...

Talk about a load of BS, I can't stop laughing. Just one of many examples.

[edit on 30-9-2007 by mad scientist]

[edit on 30-9-2007 by mad scientist]