Ahmadinejad invites Bush to speak at an Iranian University

Yeah, I laughed too.

There's no way Bush has the balls to do it. He's a puppet, he'd stand there, staring blankly at the lights, wondering where his speech writers are.

reply to post by johnsky


Yes.

It'd be embarassing. But surely Condi will remind anyone paying attention that the USA doesn't give lectures at terrorist-sponsored universities.

F


[edit on 29/9/07 by Fuggle]

Thats pretty easy to do... according to the Republicans, pretty much anyone is a terrorist.

Technically, anyone the Bush administration doesn't like, or want to have to confront, is a terrorist.

Anyone who disagrees with what the US is doing, or simply wants to be a sovereign nation without US intervention, is a terrorist nation.

Yep, the term terrorism has become meaningless.

I mean, go back to 1812, and pretty much everyone rebelling would be considered a terrorist by Bush's standards...

Is that really the kind of guy you want as your president?

Yeah Alimijani ( or however you spell his name ) is a bit of a fruit cake , athough not a stupid one. It took him 5 miniutes to start talking after invoking the name of god 50 times. As for him coming to speak here, he had nothing to lose whatsoever and was purely for propaganda purposes. Bush has far more to lose, so why in the hell would he go to Iran. Having cojones has nothing to do with it and only a moron would use them instead of his head. But having been on ATS a long time, a lot of people seem to have their brains where their balls are, kinda revers evolution.

Originally posted by Copernicus

Originally posted by Herman

Yeah, because I'm sure Bush would be just as safe in Iran as Ahmadinejad was here...

Im guessing you havent even been to Iran with a statement like that.

I've never been the president of the United States on a trip to Iran, no. But I do have common sense. For our president to visit a country where he's loathed by a grand majority of the population which just happens to be riddled with terrorist organizations who clearly aren't afraid of committing suicide bombings and other attacks, and a president who leads "Death to America, Death to Israel" chants, would be a move indicating very little commons sense. Many of the people in this country (sadly) support ahmadeneholocaust denier. Many people in this country actually believe the things he says. He was under tight security the entire time. People applauded his speech. Do you really think that Bush would have the same courtesy over there?

Sorry about the run-on. No sleep = bad sentence structure for me.

Wait I've a question, what Iranian University? Does it have a name and website? The news article didn't mention a name...

All I can say is that President Bush would be safer speaking at an Iranian University than he would be at an Australian University. The youth of Australia do not take kindly to war criminals in their Universities.

About the only person less welcome in our Universities is Prime Minister Howard.

FWIW, I think President Bush would benefit from visiting Iran. He'd be exposed for the complete buffoon and bumbling hypocritical half-wit that he is.

Also, any one can see that the US government is simply not interested in peace with Iran. What harm can come from dialogue? If the Iranians did the world a favour and gave Bush a taste of his own medicine at least the neo-cons and their Israeli puppet masters would have their precious casus belli.

Iran's nuclear program and the lies regarding the IAEA and inspections, and those of Iran's non-compliance with non-NPT mandated regulations? Well that would be off topic now wouldn't it.

Originally posted by Herman
I've never been the president of the United States on a trip to Iran, no. But I do have common sense. For our president to visit a country where he's loathed by a grand majority of the population which just happens to be riddled with terrorist organizations who clearly aren't afraid of committing suicide bombings and other attacks, and a president who leads "Death to America, Death to Israel" chants, would be a move indicating very little commons sense. Many of the people in this country (sadly) support ahmadeneholocaust denier. Many people in this country actually believe the things he says. He was under tight security the entire time. People applauded his speech. Do you really think that Bush would have the same courtesy over there?

Sorry about the run-on. No sleep = bad sentence structure for me.

Yes, but did you bother to find out why they dont like America or did you assume they are just born that way? America is still killing people every day down there. You guys got upset by 75000 americans dying, but the number of iraqi who has been killed is over a MILLION now. I mean, wtf?

The truth is that you think american life is more valuable than iraqi life, and you dont bother to try and understand why America is disliked. I guess you assume that there is no rational reason to it or something, because those are just monkeys down there anyway, right?

Then you go on about how the Iranian president was applauded, when you know that he was attacked from the start when speaking at the university, and the "interview" was nothing more than bringing up things he had said (most of them intentionally misunderstood by the american media) and letting him try to defend himself, while being constantly interrupted by the hyperactive american "reporter" that have no respect for how other cultures do things at all.

Thats my view on it anyway. I think the reasons we dont get along on this planet is because our leaders intentionally promote hate between nations for greed and profit. And its so sad to me, because I realize what human kind could accomplish if we would stop killing eachother and use all that money to build perfect societies where everybody is very happy to be alive.



[edit on 30-9-2007 by Copernicus]

reply to post by subz


Your post it spot on mate. Americans don't want to talk, they don't want peace.
That is why the whole of the world is turning against the USA. This is not my opinion, this is common knowledge. Even the British have had enough of following there great ally. That surely should tell you something. When I see the American politicians on T.V I cringe and turn it off immediately as it's so pathetic and transparent it's quite laughable. I'm not excusing the British Government they follow the Greedy American administration for the obvious financial benefits. One thing I do know though is that if the British Government follow the Americans into war with Iran you will see the biggest protests since the poll tax riots, the people will speak and have the last word.

Originally posted by Copernicus
Yes, but did you bother to find out why they dont like America or did you assume they are just born that way?

Hysterically hypocritical.

The truth is that you think american life is more valuable than iraqi life, and you dont bother to try and understand why America is disliked. I guess you assume that there is no rational reason to it or something, because those are just monkeys down there anyway, right?

Gee, Copernicus, there I was thinking that I've come to my own conclusions based off of things I've studied and speaking to numerous people with first hand experience, but I'm so glad you could go and tell me the truth about what I think! And to think I never would have known what I was thinking if you hadn't come along...wow.

Then you go on about how the Iranian president was applauded, when you know that he was attacked from the start when speaking at the university, and the "interview" was nothing more than bringing up things he had said (most of them intentionally misunderstood by the american media) and letting him try to defend himself, while being constantly interrupted by the hyperactive american "reporter" that have no respect for how other cultures do things at all.

Funny, I'm pretty sure I heard the audience applaud on a number of occasions. When a leader that leads "Death to America, Death to Israel" chants comes to a University in that country to tell them what he thinks of them, he should be lucky that the only bad thing to happen to him was that he was interrupted. In fact, I believe I only heard the audience really boo on one occasion - when the President said that his country "had no homosexuals."

Thats my view on it anyway. I think the reasons we dont get along on this planet is because our leaders intentionally promote hate between nations for greed and profit. And its so sad to me, because I realize what human kind could accomplish if we would stop killing eachother and use all that money to build perfect societies where everybody is very happy to be alive.

[edit on 30-9-2007 by Copernicus]

A utopia is impossible. And if you want to talk about countries that could be doing very well if it weren't for corrupt dictators, take a look at the middle east. Very few people are "happy to be alive," especially ones that have everything. People need hardship in their lives to appreciate the things around them. I work at a coffee shop right now. The people who get all pissy like their day is ruined and complain that their Triple half-caf grande, 4 pump vanilla, 4 pump hazelnut, soy, 1/4 inch of foam, 160 degree caramel macchiato tastes like like the foam might have been aerated too much are usually the people who are the most well-off. The construction workers that have been out working their rear-ends off for 16 hours in the 115 degree heat are usually the ones that are happy just to be able to get a hot cup of coffee (or an iced one on this occasion.)

Originally posted by Herman
Hysterically hypocritical.

Why don't you ask why so many dislikes the US foreign policy?

Gee, Copernicus, there I was thinking that I've come to my own conclusions based off of things I've studied and speaking to numerous people with first hand experience, but I'm so glad you could go and tell me the truth about what I think! And to think I never would have known what I was thinking if you hadn't come along...wow.

Fascinating.

Funny, I'm pretty sure I heard the audience applaud on a number of occasions. When a leader that leads "Death to America, Death to Israel" chants comes to a University in that country to tell them what he thinks of them, he should be lucky that the only bad thing to happen to him was that he was interrupted.

So much for free speech! Why are we all shaking in our boots when a country such as Iran makes threats ( which are frequently entirely misrepresented) while we passively accept those made by nations such as the US knowing it's terrorist record all over the globe?

In fact, I believe I only heard the audience really boo on one occasion - when the President said that his country "had no homosexuals."

And what did they have to boo about anyways given the fantastical and ludicrous claims the American media establishment showers them with?

A utopia is impossible.

Why? I mean i can see why you would believe that having swallowed so much propaganda already but why do you specifically think that we can't all just 'get along'.

And if you want to talk about countries that could be doing very well if it weren't for corrupt dictators, take a look at the middle east.

Most of which are or were supported by the US national security state.

Very few people are "happy to be alive," especially ones that have everything.

No surprise considering the immoral ways in which most fortunes are gained. I am surprised some of those people get any sleep...

People need hardship in their lives to appreciate the things around them.

It's mostly those who have never experienced hardship that fail to appreciate the luxuries they might have gained. Regular people who work and eventually do well appreciate things and that does a great deal to explain why Americans put up with so much governmental abuse.

I work at a coffee shop right now. The people who get all pissy like their day is ruined and complain that their Triple half-caf grande, 4 pump vanilla, 4 pump hazelnut, soy, 1/4 inch of foam, 160 degree caramel macchiato tastes like like the foam might have been aerated too much are usually the people who are the most well-off.

Obviously but i don't see what they has to do with Utopia or regular working that have not been overwhelmed by a capitalist dogma?

The construction workers that have been out working their rear-ends off for 16 hours in the 115 degree heat are usually the ones that are happy just to be able to get a hot cup of coffee (or an iced one on this occasion.)

Quite true and i can tell you that they will still be far more appreciative than those born wealthy when they eventually do make it. The problem is that it's becoming ever harder to 'pull yourself up by your bootstraps' and that fewer and fewer people are managing this impossible feat.

Stellar

Originally posted by Herman
I've never been the president of the United States on a trip to Iran, no. But I do have common sense.

Claimed but not proven. I find that common sense is surprisingly uncommon among the 'educated' , read indoctrinated, elite....

For our president to visit a country where he's loathed by a grand majority of the population

Do they and if so why? Why should Iranians not hate Bush and his types when they supplied chemical weapons to the Iraqi's which killed so many tens of thousands of Iranians? Why should war criminals be able to travel anywhere they wish?

which just happens to be riddled with terrorist organizations who clearly aren't afraid of committing suicide bombings and other attacks,

Which terrorist organizations and how are they related to suicide bomber mythology?

and a president who leads "Death to America, Death to Israel" chants,

When did he say this? I know he is often misquoted but this is quite the stretch!

would be a move indicating very little commons sense.

And Bush seems in touch with his common sense?

Many of the people in this country (sadly) support ahmadeneholocaust denier.

He does not deny the holocaust but does question the numbers of killed and why we should not rather talk about the many more millions of Russian civilians that were killed. He also goes on the suggest that the ZIonist movement have used those deaths to further their own interest frequently doing things that are as terrible.

Many people in this country actually believe the things he says.

While i would like to believe that Americans do in fact read and understand the history he refers to i just don't think many Americans actually believe him...

He was under tight security the entire time. People applauded his speech.

I am not sure i would applaud but clearly some thought his views were refreshing and worth that.

Do you really think that Bush would have the same courtesy over there?

Why would anyone in their right minds applaud a war criminal that has presided over the deaths of as much as a million Iraqi's?

Sorry about the run-on. No sleep = bad sentence structure for me.

Get some sleep and when youd done go to a local library and start reading some history! Even the most biased versions contains enough truth to spot the liberty destroying trends in US foreign policy.

Stellar

Funny, I sent you a good long reply, but it seems to have been deleted. I have a lot to do at the moment, but for now let me just leave you with this.

youtube.com...

I'll try to recreate my reply when I have a minute.

Originally posted by StellarX

Originally posted by Herman
Hysterically hypocritical.

Why don't you ask why so many dislikes the US foreign policy?

Why should I ask when I already know? The presumptive nature of the people I have discussions with on this board continues to amaze me. Why must you all assume that you know what I know and what I'm thinking? Is there even a point in having a discussion with someone who has already decided what you're saying before you even say it?

Fascinating.

I agree. Knowing what people are thinking before they say it is pretty fascinating. You should partner up with David Blaine.

So much for free speech! Why are we all shaking in our boots when a country such as Iran makes threats ( which are frequently entirely misrepresented) while we passively accept those made by nations such as the US knowing it's terrorist record all over the globe?

Oh yes, I'm sure the threats are entirely misrepresented. So what exactly does it mean to have a televised incident with Iranian soldiers parading around a missile that reads "Death to America and Israel"? Oh, I'm sure they meant that in a good way, right? And you know, I really shouldn't be doing your research for you. If you actually cared about an objective, intelligent opinion on these matters, you could find plenty of information in 5 minutes. But for some reason, you choose not to do so, and instead concoct these ideas that maybe achmedinejad isn't such a bad guy after all.

Why? I mean i can see why you would believe that having swallowed so much propaganda already but why do you specifically think that we can't all just 'get along'.

If you're still naive enough to believe that a utopia is possible, I shouldn't be having this conversation with you. I feel like I'm spoiling Santa Clause for some kid. I'll give you just one of the millions of reasons why a utopia isn't possible right off the top of my head. Different people want different things out of life. Some people would be perfectly happy having everything handed to them. Their idea of a great life is to never have to work again. Other people enjoy work, and the thrill of knowing that it's up to them to sink or swim. The probability that they could fail is what drives them. If you were to suddenly tell them "OK, now we're going to pay for your car, your house, all of your food, and you'll never have to work a day in your life again." would be enough to drive them insane.

No surprise considering the immoral ways in which most fortunes are gained. I am surprised some of those people get any sleep...

Another assumption.

It's mostly those who have never experienced hardship that fail to appreciate the luxuries they might have gained. Regular people who work and eventually do well appreciate things and that does a great deal to explain why Americans put up with so much governmental abuse.

The first part of what you said basically just agrees with what I said. As for Americans putting up with so much governmental abuse, are you saying that Americans have everything given to them? If so, that's just hilarious.

Obviously but i don't see what they has to do with Utopia or regular working that have not been overwhelmed by a capitalist dogma?

You don't see how that ties into what we were just talking about?

Originally posted by Herman
Why should I ask when I already know? The presumptive nature of the people I have discussions with on this board continues to amaze me.

As it does me.

Why must you all assume that you know what I know and what I'm thinking?

Because it's so very clear to me?

Is there even a point in having a discussion with someone who has already decided what you're saying before you even say it?

Not really but i strive to correct ignorance where i observe it however dogmatic and close minded the other person happens to be.

I agree. Knowing what people are thinking before they say it is pretty fascinating. You should partner up with David Blaine.

I just happen to understand what you have been reading and hearing on TV; it hardly requires a genius to know where your bias and 'knowledge' comes from.

Oh yes, I'm sure the threats are entirely misrepresented.

Entirely misrepresented as it obvious by the necessity the US media sees in mistranslating what the Iranian president says!

So what exactly does it mean to have a televised incident with Iranian soldiers parading around a missile that reads "Death to America and Israel"? Oh, I'm sure they meant that in a good way, right?

Who translated it and i want the American and Israeli regimes dead as well! Is 'America' or 'Israel' really the people or those who pretend to act in their interest? Why do properly translated version of Iranian claims indicate that they really wish death to the systems and not the peoples? More importantly what does some silly inscriptions on weapons 'prove' about the intent of the host government? Should i show you what some American soldiers have written on the bombs they drop on Iraqi's and Afghans?

And you know, I really shouldn't be doing your research for you.

You should be doing your own, yes.

If you actually cared about an objective, intelligent opinion on these matters, you could find plenty of information in 5 minutes. But for some reason, you choose not to do so, and instead concoct these ideas that maybe achmedinejad isn't such a bad guy after all.

I know of far worse people that are not getting any attention from the media you seem to trust to tell you about him. If you actually cared about an objective, intelligent opinion on these matter, you could find plenty of information but you should not trust any source that can bring it to you in five minutes. If you think these claims can be addressed with five minutes worth of googling your just wrong.

If you're still naive enough to believe that a utopia is possible, I shouldn't be having this conversation with you. I feel like I'm spoiling Santa Clause for some kid.

Utopia may be possible if people like you did not so diligently but into the doom&gloom propaganda!

I've you just one of the millions of reasons why a utopia isn't possible right off the top of my head. Different people want different things out of life.

People really want the same things as studying history would have quickly revealed to you. The struggle for democracy and basic security ( food, warm place to sleep, community) is common to all human beings ( which i suppose is good reason to argue that some people are not from this planet) and given such a common aim 'utopia' seems more logical than what we are currently experiencing.

Some people would be perfectly happy having everything handed to them.

The rich and currently powerful who employ public treasuries to enrich themselves while the average person diligently pays taxes and works hard for his food? Since they are such a minority no one would miss them if they were gone and that's exactly what any utopia is going to require and apparently what the people of his planet has consistently tried to arrange.

Their idea of a great life is to never have to work again.

Few people, mostly the above group, wish to do nothing at all but everyone wishes for a proper reward for the time spent.

Other people enjoy work, and the thrill of knowing that it's up to them to sink or swim.

Only the ignorant many who have fooled into thinking that everyone in the economy sinks or swims. Do you realise that a large majority of Americans ( 75-80% as i remember ) still believes that there should be a extensive social security net to help those who do not swim so well? How can that be in a society where people have been so indoctrinated to believe that there is only sinking or swimming? People do seem to understand what is right and what is good for most but they are being prevented from bringing about the implementation of such common dreams.

The probability that they could fail is what drives them. If you were to suddenly tell them "OK, now we're going to pay for your car, your house, all of your food, and you'll never have to work a day in your life again." would be enough to drive them insane.

The mind of the commissar is indeed a most fascinating, to say nothing of twisted, place. What drives Americans to work so hard is not that they might fail but knowing that there are very few systems that will help them when they do. They do not wish for it to be so but they can not impress upon their government their wants of a social safety net such as those in Scandinavian countries. Why would a government have to pay for people to have a car, a house and all their food when they stop taking those people's money and giving it to those who do not need it? Why not just leave people alone to at least fend for themselves instead of robbing them blind at every turn and pretending that it's fair contest of sinking and swimming?

Another assumption

It's a fact and a rather well known one outside of the commissar classes. Commissars are obviously not those who are very rich but those who believe they may become so by doing and believing what they are told. The joke is obviously on them but they are normally the last to know.

The first part of what you said basically just agrees with what I said.

No it does not as you presume that gaining wealth is 'problematic' for the individual when that's nonsense.

As for Americans putting up with so much governmental abuse, are you saying that Americans have everything given to them? If so, that's just hilarious.

No i am not and i do not understand why you say that when i am arguing that so much is being taken from them making them far more likely to sink than to swim!

You don't see how that ties into what we were just talking about?

Sure but i don't think you have much of a hope of discovering that.

Sieg Heil of ignorance!!

Well done Herman....

Stellar

Oh, Stellar, how backwards can you be? Can you get through a single post without assuming something about the person with whom you're debating? Someday, perhaps, you'll look back and realize what you were doing; why you have to keep knocking down scarecrows instead of actually having a real debate.

Originally posted by StellarX

Originally posted by Herman
Why should I ask when I already know? The presumptive nature of the people I have discussions with on this board continues to amaze me.

As it does me.

You're one of those people.

Why must you all assume that you know what I know and what I'm thinking?

Because it's so very clear to me?

Does your refusal to look at things from another viewpoint make a lot of things clear to you? If I were to put on a blindfold, the blackness would be very clear to me as well.

Not really but i strive to correct ignorance where i observe it however dogmatic and close minded the other person happens to be.

Would you like to show me where I've been dogmatic, or is this just another word you've been trained to throw at me? Ignorant, blind, close-minded, dogmatic, all words in the "I Think I'm Better Than You But I've Never Actually Done Anything To Validate It" encylopedia/dictionary. They can also be found in The Idiot's Guide to Being Pretentious.

I just happen to understand what you have been reading and hearing on TV; it hardly requires a genius to know where your bias and 'knowledge' comes from.

Sure you do. It amazes me how so many people such as yourself can't even see through their own B.S. How do you know what I as an individual have been reading or watching? You talk about ignorance and close-mindedness, yet there's clearly a large group of people that you choose to lump together. Is it Americans? Are you prejudiced against Americans? How do you know that I don't read things on the internet from alternative news sources? How do you know that I'm not reading the exact same information that you are? The truth is that you don't. You assume because it makes you feel like you're right. I encourage you to break out of your shell and breathe some fresh air for once.

Entirely misrepresented as it obvious by the necessity the US media sees in mistranslating what the Iranian president says!

Would you mind telling me what was mistranslated in the video I posted?

Who translated it and i want the American and Israeli regimes dead as well!

And there it is...wow.

Is 'America' or 'Israel' really the people or those who pretend to act in their interest? Why do properly translated version of Iranian claims indicate that they really wish death to the systems and not the peoples? More importantly what does some silly inscriptions on weapons 'prove' about the intent of the host government? Should i show you what some American soldiers have written on the bombs they drop on Iraqi's and Afghans?

Our silly inscriptions on bombs are just that - silly inscriptions that individual soldiers decided to write. It's a little different than having our president approve a huge banner and orchestrating a parade around the missile on national television. I hope you can see that. In fact, I know that you can see that.

And you know, I really shouldn't be doing your research for you.
You should be doing your own, yes.

Way to twist some words!

I know of far worse people that are not getting any attention from the media you seem to trust to tell you about him.

If you actually cared about an objective, intelligent opinion on these matter, you could find plenty of information but you should not trust any source that can bring it to you in five minutes. If you think these claims can be addressed with five minutes worth of googling your just wrong.

You think I trust our media? Come on, you've already lumped me into a category; at least stick with one. Aren't I supposed to believe that our media has a liberal bias?

Utopia may be possible if people like you did not so diligently but into the doom&gloom propaganda!

If you consider reality doom and gloom, then sure.

People really want the same things as studying history would have quickly revealed to you.

That sentence right there makes it pretty obvious that you spend too much time sitting around reading, and not enough time in the real world. Christ, I'm only 20 years old. I'm not expert on life, but I can see the naivety of that statement a mile away.

The struggle for democracy and basic security ( food, warm place to sleep, community) is common to all human beings ( which i suppose is good reason to argue that some people are not from this planet) and given such a common aim 'utopia' seems more logical than what we are currently experiencing.

Would you care to suggest to me an idea of your utopia? Just give everybody their basic needs and they would all be happy? I highly doubt that would work. As long as they live, most people will keep striving to do better and better. The best way to make that possible is to give everybody freedom. But we can't simply let everybody loose and have some anarchistic society. What do you propose we do?

The rich and currently powerful who employ public treasuries to enrich themselves while the average person diligently pays taxes and works hard for his food? Since they are such a minority no one would miss them if they were gone and that's exactly what any utopia is going to require and apparently what the people of his planet has consistently tried to arrange.

Typical. You assume that the rich and powerful didn't work hard to get where they were; that they're lazy. I'll tell you a quick, extremely abridged version of a story about my family. The family my father came from was dirt poor. His brother, my uncle, was an extremely hard worker. He is now very wealthy. He strived on hard work and constantly bettering himself. Did he go on welfare or ask for government assistance? Hell no - he worked his behind off to get the things he wanted out of life. Now that he has them, does some idiot have the right to call him lazy, or to tax him into poverty again? I don't think so - he earned every dollar he made, and so did my father, so did my grandfather, and so did other people that I know personally (Not all of them live in this country, either.) He's one of the most hard working people I've ever known; getting only a couple hours a sleep a night because he was so busy working for his dream. I would like to ask you where people like him fit into your utopia. What right does somebody like you, or any government have to stop somebody from attaining their dreams?

I know other people as well. People who don't like work. People who went on welfare and government aid because their perfectly happy with their basic needs. Have you ever done any real research about who pays the majority of taxes in the U.S? Do you realize what a shockingly large percent of our tax burden the top 5% and 1% of earners in my country pays?

Few people, mostly the above group, wish to do nothing at all but everyone wishes for a proper reward for the time spent.

Again, a continuation of your backwards assumption that the rich and lazy go together. Maybe that's so for people who inherit their money, but not for everybody.

Only the ignorant many who have fooled into thinking that everyone in the economy sinks or swims. Do you realise that a large majority of Americans ( 75-80% as i remember ) still believes that there should be a extensive social security net to help those who do not swim so well? How can that be in a society where people have been so indoctrinated to believe that there is only sinking or swimming? People do seem to understand what is right and what is good for most but they are being prevented from bringing about the implementation of such common dreams.

No one thing will ever be good for everybody. We all have to make our own way - that's what I believe. The freedom to succeed or fail means a lot to me. Sure, a safety net would be right, but let people do what they want with their business and money.

The mind of the commissar is indeed a most fascinating, to say nothing of twisted, place. What drives Americans to work so hard is not that they might fail but knowing that there are very few systems that will help them when they do. They do not wish for it to be so but they can not impress upon their government their wants of a social safety net such as those in Scandinavian countries. Why would a government have to pay for people to have a car, a house and all their food when they stop taking those people's money and giving it to those who do not need it? Why not just leave people alone to at least fend for themselves instead of robbing them blind at every turn and pretending that it's fair contest of sinking and swimming?

Again, guess who pays that majority of the tax burden in our country. I'll let you in on a little secret; it's not the poor.

U.S. taxes.
Yes, the link is slightly old. That didn't take me long to find. Again, do your research and you'll find the same things I've found.

It's a fact and a rather well known one outside of the commissar classes. Commissars are obviously not those who are very rich but those who believe they may become so by doing and believing what they are told. The joke is obviously on them but they are normally the last to know.

I suppose the family and friends I have that have become successful are commissars? I guess I'll keep waiting until they realize how wrong they were. I have a feeling I'm going to be waiting a long time.

Sieg Heil of ignorance!!

Well done Herman....

Stellar

And there you go again.

reply to post by FredT


Lol, i really like that guy, it seems he is always one step ahead. Good job.

Originally posted by Herman
Oh, Stellar, how backwards can you be? Can you get through a single post
without assuming something about the person with whom you're debating?

I can but why bother when i think i have a handle on how the other mind works? Based on what you have claimed so far i have not yet had reason to change my mind either!

Someday, perhaps, you'll look back and realize what you were doing; why you have to keep knocking down scarecrows instead of actually having a real debate.

A real debate? If only you knew as much about me as i think i know about you. Man are you in for a surprise.....

Originally posted by StellarX
You're one of those people.

No, you are! Are you five? I simply repeated what you said as i believed it to be a even more accurate description of you! You thought i didn't 'understand'? Man....

Does your refusal to look at things from another viewpoint make a lot of things clear to you? If I were to put on a blindfold, the blackness would be very clear to me as well.

I used to believe in few of the things you still do so i am quite familiar with your point of view!

Would you like to show me where I've been dogmatic, or is this just another word you've been trained to throw at me?

Trained by who? I mean who do you think has their hand up my shirt making me type this? Is this another one of those communist/fundamentalist conspiracies you must believe in to consider the Iranians 'dangerous' to anyone but themselves?

Ignorant, blind, close-minded, dogmatic, all words in the "I Think I'm Better Than You But I've Never Actually Done Anything To Validate It" encylopedia/dictionary.

Stop projecting your feelings of insecurity onto me and lets not start measuring our reproductive organs! I do not think i am 'better' than you but i do know that i am far more knowledgeable and certainly closer to a objective truth than you.

They can also be found in The Idiot's Guide to Being Pretentious.

You got quite the act for a twenty year old.

Sure you do. It amazes me how so many people such as yourself can't even see through their own B.S. How do you know what I as an individual have been reading or watching?

By their regurgitation of the same old nonsensical empty minded propaganda? How else would i know? Do you think i am prescient?

You talk about ignorance and close-mindedness, yet there's clearly a large group of people that you choose to lump together. Is it Americans? Are you prejudiced against Americans?

I am prejudiced against ignorant people who refuse to become better informed. That includes a host of Americans but it's certainly not limited to them...

How do you know that I don't read things on the internet from alternative news sources?

Reading alternative sources is not good enough when your simply looking to find anything that 'backs up' the propaganda you saw on CNN/FOX and BBC.

How do you know that I'm not reading the exact same information that you are? The truth is that you don't.

Then you would have been far better informed and would not be buying into such vapid lies and misrepresentations.

You assume because it makes you feel like you're right. I encourage you to break out of your shell and breathe some fresh air for once.

Thanks for the advice....

Would you mind telling me what was mistranslated in the video I posted?

en.wikipedia.org...

Maybe i give the Israeli's ( or more specifically their Zionist backers and state machinery) far too much credit but i can not trust the Memri organizations translation work .

en.wikipedia.org...

If you can show me videos translated by the Iranian media institutions then i can give it some attention but frankly i don't really care if they shout 'death' to anything knowing that they are so entirely unable to make good on their threats. If they ever dared they would be obliterated and this they well understand.

And there it is...wow.

It's not something i normally say but it's what you wanted me to say and something i will say and defend when dealing with your type of unreasonable ignorance. The Israeli regime and their backers 'needs to wiped from the pages of history' and the war crime discussion hall that is the white house should probably be removed entirely.

Our silly inscriptions on bombs are just that - silly inscriptions that individual soldiers decided to write.

Because the American war machine that has killed so many millions over the years just allows innocent silly inscriptions while those dastardly Iranians really MEAN it? I can tell you that i become very uncomfortable when i see such stuff on American weapons but lose interest when i see the resulting Iranian posturing backed by such dull teeth.

It's a little different than having our president approve a huge banner and orchestrating a parade around the missile on national television. I hope you can see that. In fact, I know that you can see that.

And the weapon loaded weapon parades that still happen in so many US cities? Do we need to see such parades in the US when most the equipment they could use is busy being employed in foreign lands? It's no different when the Iranians do it and far easier to understand given that they are ACTUALLY BEING THREATENED with violence. What are the Iranians going to do short of getting their country destroyed? Who in their right minds are afraid of Iran?

Way to twist some words!

I know how to do research and i think my method works very well indeed!

You think I trust our media? Come on, you've already lumped me into a category; at least stick with one.

So you just believe their conclusions but not what their saying? Sorry if i don't understand that contradiction!

]quote]Aren't I supposed to believe that our media has a liberal bias?

According to my theory you probably will, yes.

]If you consider reality doom and gloom, then sure.

It's pretty bad as compared to what it could have been without those in power abusing it so.

That sentence right there makes it pretty obvious that you spend too much time sitting around reading, and not enough time in the real world.

And what do you know about the real world that you do not think i do?

Christ, I'm only 20 years old. I'm not expert on life, but I can see the naivety of that statement a mile away.

I could tell that you were only twenty years old ( to be honest i thought you would be younger but i know everyone matures at their own rate ) so excuse me for not believing you when you employ the word 'naive' in reference to those you don't like...

Would you care to suggest to me an idea of your utopia? Just give everybody their basic needs and they would all be happy? I highly doubt that would work.

It used to work so why wouldn't it again? It still works in some places so why can't it work for everywhere? Why is so much money and organization required to set up systems that breads hatred and fear? Utopia is based on people owning their own labour with no need to sell it to make a living. If everyone were thus satisfied i have a hard time believing that we would have many or any of the current inter-country problems.

As long as they live, most people will keep striving to do better and better.

Better than what? Why do you think it's natural do always want to do better? Where did you come up with such a ridiculous capitalist notion anyways?

The best way to make that possible is to give everybody freedom. But we can't simply let everybody loose and have some anarchistic society.

You don't seem to trust your fellow human beings and i must ask why your so suspicious of them? What have they done to you to result in your fear of freedom for everyone?

What do you propose we do?

Do the word 'freedom' justice by allowing true freedom and observing the resulting social orders? I don't think true freedom is possible under the current energy management paradigms but i think surprising things can be managed even under such integrated social conditions.

Typical. You assume that the rich and powerful didn't work hard to get where they were; that they're lazy.

Well if you calling the exploitation of others 'working hard' i suppose your right but frankly i don't see it that way and wonder why your so willing to believe in the capitalist mythology. I am not talking about people with two cars and four bedroom house btw!

'll tell you a quick, extremely abridged version of a story about my family. The family my father came from was dirt poor. His brother, my uncle, was an extremely hard worker. He is now very wealthy.

How much does it earn per year to make him in your opinion wealthy and if hard work made him so rich why are those who work three jobs and 80- 100 hours a week in Indonesian sweat shops not getting wealthy? What the hell does hard work have to do with wealth? It's how INTELLIGENTLY you spend your time ( particularly if you can exploit other people's hard work) that makes you truly wealthy.

He strived on hard work and constantly bettering himself.

If this is all true ( and his not a sweat shop owner) that's great and i am all for a system where hard work is always rewarded with riches in the end. What i would like you to consider is why he was poor in the first place? What was wrong with his parents for being so 'pathetic' in the first place? Why didn't they just work themselves out of poverty as he supposedly did?

Continued below

Did he go on welfare or ask for government assistance? Hell no - he worked his behind off to get the things he wanted out of life.

What's wrong for asking government assistance when things go wrong in a economy where the government frequently bails out massive corporations but rarely if every bails out mom and pop's diner when they make a mistake or get taxed too heavily? Billions of people are working their behinds off , and at least a billion barely survives despite all of the work, so what makes your father so special? Is it because he succeeded or because he worked hard and if the only measure is success what kind of society does that breed?

Now that he has them, does some idiot have the right to call him lazy, or to tax him into poverty again?

If he 'worked' that hard ( sitting behind a desk doesn't even count in my book) he is unlikely to have become wealthy by admirable means and just to be sure we can tax the hell out of him for all possible past crimes; it's not like the very poor is not getting the living daylights taxed out of them so why spare the rich the indignation of being able to afford one less luxury yacht per year? As i said we may be talking about different kinds of wealth... If he can be taxed back into poverty he can't be very rich to start with.

I don't think so - he earned every dollar he made, and so did my father, so did my grandfather, and so did other people that I know personally (Not all of them live in this country, either.)

So you think very many poor people who survive or gain any measure of wealth did not earn it in at least some way? Did he earn is honestly and without doing others great harm is a more interesting and useful measure.

He's one of the most hard working people I've ever known; getting only a couple hours a sleep a night because he was so busy working for his dream.

If you can do without sleep you might be thinking hard but your probably not working too hard! Oh the stories about the poor architect that burned the midnight oil to afford another mansion! I've practically got tears in my eyes.....

I have done 'hard work' and i can tell you that you desperately need if if you wish to keep up your strength.

I would like to ask you where people like him fit into your utopia

If his a honest person who works hard in self interested ways and does not require harm done to others, to reach his goals, he would fit in perfectly and would be chosen by the people to represent their interest in whatever bureaucracy we absolutely can't do without.

What right does somebody like you, or any government have to stop somebody from attaining their dreams?

Non, if their dreams uplifts their countrymen, and that is why we should have less government that only seeks to regulate the poor while the wealthy empties the public treasury.

I know other people as well. People who don't like work.

Why should anyone like work in capitalist Indonesia where you work twelve hours a day while not receiving a living wage? Why should the exploited workers of the world LIKE work when it hardly keeps them alive? The people who REALLY hate real work ( like emptying the trash, laying streets, mining minerals and building buildings) can normally be found enjoying the labour of others in the most indulgent and exploitative ways possible.

People who went on welfare and government aid because their perfectly happy with their basic needs.

And what's wrong with being happy having basic needs satisfied when you know the system will do it's best to destroy any greater honest efforts? How can be point fingers at poor who take some welfare, when there are no worthwhile/any jobs, while for instance American corporations have their arms up to the shoulder in the public treasury they only contribute 15% of the whole to? Why are most of the top twenty most profitable corporations in the US getting tax rebates after adding up all their governmental subsidies? When the corporate welfare stops then ignorants such as yourself can start pointing fingers at those suppose coloured ( and in 1994 there were in the USA more whites on welfare than African Americans) welfare queens and how they are employing the system a little bit better than it employs them.

Have you ever done any real research about who pays the majority of taxes in the U.S? Do you realize what a shockingly large percent of our tax burden the top 5% and 1% of earners in my country pays?

And why should they not given their massive incomes and personal wealth. How did they gain it all and why should they not be taxed to help improve their country and thus create even more consumers and thus clients? Makes good economic sense to me! I don't believe the numbers are all that shocking but if you wish to source the claim i think you will find it most fascinating to see who is in fact filling the public treasury.

Originally posted by Herman
gain, a continuation of your backwards assumption that the rich and lazy go together. Maybe that's so for people who inherit their money, but not for everybody.

Sure it's not true for EVERY rich/wealthy person and maybe 'lazy' is not a good work considering how they will scheme day and night to gain more or protect what they have already gained in
in those immoral ways.

No one thing will ever be good for everybody. We all have to make our own way - that's what I believe.

Why will no one thing every be good for everyone when that one thing allows their basic needs to be met? You 'believe' that everyone has to make their own way because that's what you have been indoctrinated to accept as driving force...

The freedom to succeed or fail means a lot to me. Sure, a safety net would be right, but let people do what they want with their business and money.

Which for most people in the capitalist model then means failure as that's pretty much what growing wealth in certain hands means! Why should we allow people ( not mom and pop btw) to do what they want with their businesses and money when some of them are clearly hell bent on not paying others a fair wage for their labour? Why should the rest of us destroy our own rights as workers by allowing fellow workers to be abused here or elsewhere? Why should we be that stupid?

Again, guess who pays that majority of the tax burden in our country. I'll let you in on a little secret; it's not the poor.

That's just federal taxes and does not include value added tax, fuel taxes, rent, medical cost, school fees and a host of other less visible taxes that results from privatization and a lack of social spending ( giving back what it took ) on the governments part! If the poor had much money left after that they could be taxed but since they really do not why cry foul? Is it their fault they do not make higher wages in a country with 7-9% unemployment rate with wages for the bottom 60% DECLINING in 1995 dollars up to the year 2000. Why could 70% of American not increase their real wages income in twenty years when they work the longest hours in the industrialized world? By employing your logic there is something desperately 'wrong' with 70% of American citizens! Way to go mister commissar...

U.S. taxes.
Yes, the link is slightly old. That didn't take me long to find. Again, do your research and you'll find the same things I've found.

Yes but i will interpret it in a logical way without just doing my best to make il founded allegations about how the very wealthy should be allowed to keep their ill gotten goods and further shift the tax burden onto the very poor. Why should the 1% who got wealthy by working for the federal government, thus with your money, as directors of Boeing and Lockheed martin NOT give back much of what they got from those who really can not afford to pay taxes? If that wealth did not come directly from your pocket or from exploiting your labour maybe we could have argued to let them keep more of it but why would when we know exactly where they get it from?

I suppose the family and friends I have that have become successful are commissars?

If you buy into the capitalist mythology, as you do, then you become a active agent in it's propagation and thus basically a commissar without your express consideration. It may or may not matter that you know what your doing but that just shows how clever those people are that you think should be allowed to keep more of the wealth they will employ to further indoctrinate you into their service...

I guess I'll keep waiting until they realize how wrong they were. I have a feeling I'm going to be waiting a long time.
And there you go again.

Sure you will Herman as it takes a good deal of effort and knowledge to start dismantling so many levels of mythology and lies.

Seig Heil means ' Hail to victory' ( as i recall) and i just added the 'of ignorance' in a bad attempt to joke about your chosen nickname...

Stellar