Originally posted by Donoso

Seriously? We don't base our "beliefs" on a piece of paper that came from a plethora of random people through out time, which are completely contradictory and about as empirical as Santa Claus.

We base our decision on scientific theories (which, are not layman's theories) and most often then not philosophy and then conclude through a plethora of empirical data points that: God does not exist, doesn't need to exist, doesn't matter if it exists.

This might be why you don't see the "Christian kindness" and why Atheists wouldn't be electable. You just can't go calling people who have religious beliefs stupid by mocking their bible comparing their God to the easter bunny and making patent the assertions made about athesist arrogance true as if you have more intelligence. I get it you think you are better then everyone who is religious and that you are contemptuous of them.

Take it from me as a Christian,, that the impression you just made is the one that I remember about atheists and invariably I hear the same rants about being oppressed in some way as if you have "I am an atheist tatooed on your forehead."

Then you think people dislike you merely because you don't belive in GOD??

You have been ten times more rude then Valle yet I see that is ok but it is athesists being persecuted? I would assume my calling it rude doesn't even register does it?

Trust me,, when it comes to why Athesist have so many problems

Your religious beliefs have nothing to do with it.

As for that where is that Christian Kindness? I may ask the same "where is that Atheist sensibility?

- Con

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
"the child should have the freedom to worship as she sees fit, and not be influenced by prospective parents who do not believe in a Supreme Being."

Sounds like this judge got tired of hearing Atheists claiming Christian parents brainwash their children saying its tantamount to child abuse that they don't have the freedom to think for themselves (or without religion)

I think THAT is why that judge did that, because thats the kind of charm Atheists can't help being. Their not believing in GoD probably had nothing to do with it but their attitude towards those that do did.

hehe God works in mysterious ways.

- Con

Originally posted by Conspiriology
hehe God works in mysterious ways.

So mysterious it's non-existence

Originally posted by MajorMalfunction
How are Americans better educated? Most Europeans learn to converse in at least one other language than the native one, for starters. How many bi-lingual Americans does anyone know?

America seems to have this attitude that we're "better-than."

We are in no way "better-than" any other people on earth. And it's the same sort of attitude that comes across from fundamentalist and some other types of Christian. Smug, sanctimonious, self-righteous and self-aggrandizing. Also boring and disgusting.

Speak for yourself, if you are going to give yourself the right to rant and talk about people you say are boring and disgusting in the same post you are talking about equality.

That gives anyone the right to say they are better just to offset the sweeping generalizations you just made about those you have ridiculed.

By the way, I have been around the planet twice and everywhere I went they spoke english which happens to be the international language for international business. That is why THEY HAVE TO LEARN IT and I do not for it is our native tongue. Consider the many here that DO take another language when they don't really have to.

I wonder,, don't you get tired of always playing the victim ?
the kept out of the loop? the oppressed?

Smug, sanctimonious, self-righteous and self-aggrandizing. Also boring and disgusting.

*yawn*

- Con

Originally posted by AncientVoid

Originally posted by Conspiriology
hehe God works in mysterious ways.

So mysterious it's non-existence

Ain't my fault your perception isn't as accute as mine. Kinda like how we got here huh? From nothing like *poof*

You were created just like those before you. No one evolves you had parents who had kids who had parents and so on


isn't called "Pro-creation" for nothing

Trace one of your ancestors family tree to any silverbacks?

Didn't think so

- Con

Originally posted by Conspiriology
This might be why you don't see the "Christian kindness" and why Atheists wouldn't be electable.

yes, the kindness of oppressing the nontheistic minority is so apparent...

You just can't go calling people who have religious beliefs stupid

we don't call people who have religious beliefs stupid. there are many intelligent people who have religious beliefs. we just believe that the religious beliefs are stupid, not the people who follow them.

by mocking their bible

we don't "mock"
we "criticize"
we "challenge"
we "point out the logical inconsistencies"
we don't say things such as "HAHA, look, it says this guy was on a cross and came back to life, that's so stupid!"
that would be mocking, but we do not do that.

comparing their God to the easter bunny

both are equally improvable.

and making patent the assertions made about athesist arrogance true as if you have more intelligence.

haha, we don't do that. show me where we do.
and a repeat of the myth of atheist arrogance.
we're not the ones claiming to have absolute truth.

I get it you think you are better then everyone who is religious and that you are contemptuous of them.

again, the myth of atheist arrogance.

Take it from me as a Christian,, that the impression you just made is the one that I remember about atheists and invariably I hear the same rants about being oppressed in some way as if you have "I am an atheist tatooed on your forehead."

there was nothing wrong with the post you quoted. it was a reasoned, logical statement that is only offensive to those that find it offensive to have their views challenged.

Then you think people dislike you merely because you don't belive in GOD??

actually, yes, yes i do. i've actually been turned down for employment because of it. i applied to work at mcdonald's and was turned down because i was an atheist. i mentioned that i'd be able to work sunday mornings. the person asked me if i go to church later or to saturday mass or if i'm jewish. i said i just don't go to church because i do not believe in god. his tone changed from happy and accepting to an immediate shout for me to get out and that he didn't need "my kind" in there.

You have been ten times more rude then Valle yet I see that is ok but it is athesists being persecuted? I would assume my calling it rude doesn't even register does it?

we are persecuted. MM just got banned for no reason.

Trust me,, when it comes to why Athesist have so many problems

Your religious beliefs have nothing to do with it.

you're right: we don't have any.
that's why we have problems.

As for that where is that Christian Kindness? I may ask the same "where is that Atheist sensibility?

it's what i'm using to see through the transparent bigotry.

Originally posted by Conspiriology
Sounds like this judge got tired of hearing Atheists claiming Christian parents brainwash their children saying its tantamount to child abuse that they don't have the freedom to think for themselves (or without religion)

I think THAT is why that judge did that, because thats the kind of charm Atheists can't help being. Their not believing in GoD probably had nothing to do with it but their attitude towards those that do did.

see:
more bigotry.

it's ok to think that women must be absolutely submissive to their husbands
you can adopt a child with that misogynistic view
it's alright to think that medicine is evil and that the only proper cure is prayer
you can adopt a child with that life-threatening view
but if you think it's abusive for those two people to impose those dangerous views on impressionable children, it's bad...

i wish MM was here...

I'd like to point out something:
there's an Anti-Atheist conspiracy here on ATS.

why would i say this?

well, one of the leading atheist posters on our forum has been banned for seemingly no reason at all.
MajorMalfunction, the creator of this thread, was recently banned. from what I can tell, there was no reasoning behind it.

she was often attacked as "militant" for actually speaking up...
she was told she "preached" when she voiced her opinions...

seems like ATS is just another part of the Anti-Atheist conspiracy.

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul

we don't "mock"
we "criticize"
we "challenge"

Yes you do, on all three counts and I am trying to explain that so you might understand better. I mean this is academic Dale Carnegie stuff here Mad. How you insult while you call it challenging, I call it arguing and if ones comparing an Easter bunny to god isn't mocking then I suggest you explain why then use such a comparison? When AncientVoid adds not one not two BUT FOUR lauging emoticons in a row arfter he uses an analogy to convey something incredulous, do you not think I take that as him lauging AT me and not with me? That I wouldn't see it as arrogant or condescending? This is the same kind of thing your own celebrated Atheist Author Sam Harris is trying to get you guys to understand.


Saying they are improvable doesn't cut it. I can prove the Easter bunny exists in the context of its traditional invention to the costume one wears at Easter. I will not see what that has to do with the other. I suggest you can't see God for the same reason you are having trouble seeing other distinctions in your post ,, you just refuse to.

That's your choice but with it comes the consequences that you would rather see as some conspiracy rather then reality that you get back what you put out and generally you get it back ten fold.

it's ok to think that women must be absolutely submissive to their husbands

as each other, I don't see how that is a problem unless you think she is doing it against her will? If that is the case then I would tell you you're adding a new context that this statement is not trying to address. This is NOT implying COMLIANCE under the threat of subversion or coersion by force or misogynistic discrimination. If interpreting it that way helps you rationalize you world view about the bible and Christianity then I would expect this is why you are saying many other antagonistic views which are not accurate.

again, the myth of atheist arrogance.

Are you saying atheists are not arrogant? Or are you saying the stereotype is not true? I would suggest to you that it is or I guess i'd be saying OK OK Jews are always willing to pick up the tab ok ok Japanese don't all walk around with cameras on theor chests OK OK Blacks aren't better boxers then whites. The fact is Mad,, there is often a reason stereotypes get cast but to deny this is in and of itself a form of arrogance so you are incorrect.

there was nothing wrong with the post you quoted. it was a reasoned, logical statement that is only offensive to those that find it offensive to have their views challenged.

there is a big difference between challenging someones views and critisizing them as stupid. It's a matter of diplomacy in conflict resolution. It's a matter of making your point while they are willing to listen. I don't think I have to explain how you lose your audience the moment you insult them do I?

you can adopt a child with that view
it's alright to think that medicine is evil and that the only proper cure is prayer you can adopt a child with that life-threatening view
but if you think it's abusive for those two people to impose those dangerous views on impressionable children, it's bad...

(shaking head like a cartoon) what! there you go again Mad, making sweeping generizations about religious people that simply just are NOT true. I am sure there are some religions that believe medicine is evil but I can tell you the hospitals are filled with catholics, Baptists, lutherans and many other people with religious convictions and YOU KNOW THIS but you insist on seeing them through this convoluted perception of reality and we are a reflection of your attitude towards us.

we "point out the logical inconsistencies"

Well allow me then to point out one of your own
see below:

we don't call people who have religious beliefs stupid.
we just believe that the religious beliefs are stupid, not the people who follow them.

You can not call religious beliefs stupid without calling the religious BELIEVER stupid also. Do you not see that?

Ill explain again,

I can call religion stupid and religion won't be offended but when I call the person who believes in religion stupid by adding the very word belief in religion is where you make it personal and where the believer takes it personal. It is the same with drugs and drug use only in this case no one will argue the negative but for illustration purposes I can say for instance, drugs are stupid and drugs won't be ashamed or feel stupid but when I say "drug use" is stupid, it is the USER you are talking about in drug use no less then the BELIEVER you are talking about regarding religion and belief.

Drug use is to the USER what religious belief is to the believer. No matter which one you are talking about, saying they are stupid, shames the drug user and insults the religious believer.

You can assume one doesn't convict and the other doesn't insult all you like but you are ultimatley the sum total of the choices you make no matter how you think others should feel about yout treatment of them.

It is best to understand human nature the way it tells us rather then how we think it should act. When I say that something offended Vall or myself the first thing you do is argue with me why it shoudn't rather then LISTEN you impose these same Athesist protocols. That invalidates my feelings tells me you either think I am either a liar or I don't have a right to be upset. THEN, you expect me to sympathize with your cause and consider it is all a conspiracy.

I CAN NOT.

I will not because it isn't a conspiracy, it is a bad attitiude that in many cases you manifested by the way you are treated by others and you got to ask yourself NOT what is wrong with THEM

but what is wrong with you,, what is it YOU are doing wrong in most cases is what you refuse to examine. Look Mad,, it's this simple,,

All I am saying is if you want a friend,,

BE ONE.

Make sense?

we are persecuted. MM just got banned for no reason.

Mad, everyone thinks they were banned for no reason. I am sure the MOD had a reason but again it is this attitude about such things that you willfully wish to believe is a conspiracy that "they" (who ever they are I am assuming it is "Christians" again) are out to oppress atheists. I would wager however, that it had more to do with the vitriol in the manner of her post then it did some prejudice.

In regard to the last part of your post, I have to agree that was wrong for the McDonald's Manager to fire you. I would mention however that as much as you would like to say you DON'T believe in God that you are atheist, I think it would have been wiser to just tell people you don't have a church or don't go to one and not risk losing your job. No one knows you are an atheist but when someone asks you questions like that guy was,, it might suggest to you that he was religious and exclaiming your atheism was a risk didn't have to take.

That doesn't make it right he fired you but I think handling it the way I suggest sure would have been something you could both live with.

The Government may have laws for things like that but bottom line is you can't legislate peoples opinions. The only thing you can so is sue them for them and that is your choice and I would say you have a case.

Here is where you would lose that case however,,

when I said "Trust me,, when it comes to why Atheist have so many problems ,,Your religious beliefs have nothing to do with it. "

YOU SAID:

we don't have any

Clever but you missed the point so Ill use your cleverness in the same way and perhaps you might get it then

by your own logic then your discrimination case for firing you based on your religious beliefs How can he fire you on religious beliefs you don't have?

See how that comes off like a smart ass ? Well that's the same as using that defense when it suits you but be careful,, it can be used against you in that same way.

Just my opinion.

- Con





[edit on 14-1-2008 by Conspiriology]

Originally posted by MajorMalfunction

I must quote myself here

I wonder,, don't you get tired of always playing the victim ?
the kept out of the loop? the oppressed? . - con

That kind of thing usually becomes a self fulfilled prophesy and when it does I am sure will blame it on the conspiracy

- Con



[edit on 14-1-2008 by Conspiriology]

I actually agree with Conspiriology. If the Christians or other followers of a religious faith have done it I have not noticed (surely it has happened but naturally anti-religious statements would stand out more in my mind) but I have seen God be compared to the Easter Bunny, Santa Claus, Magic, Fairies, etc.

It's irritating to be honest. My question is, how do you know what is going on is not real?

This is a horrible analogy but I'll use it anyways: I don't necessarily believe in aliens but I'm not going to laugh at someone who does- or the tens of thousands of people who have claimed to see a U.F.O or encountered an alien. Obviously something is going on and I cannot claim without a doubt it's all false and aliens don't exist. It would be wrong and close minded of me to call them nut jobs or claim what they are experiencing is false just because I have not had the same experience. (End of horrible analogy).

It's the same for Christianity and the Bible. There is heaps of evidence to confirm Biblical accounts including the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus. But the critics love to blindly point out there is none. And we all know, if you say something loud enough and long enough, others will believe it and mimic the same statement.

There have also been countless people who have had real, personal, and physical experiences that further solidify an individual's belief. Unfortuneately, this cannot be replicated for others but it does affirm the belief of that person. To say it is a fairy tale is ignorant and arrogant. Something is obviously going on. So how do YOU know? What justifies equating our beliefs with fairy tales when there is historical, internal, and extrabiblical evidence to back up our claims? Geesh...

[edit on 1/14/2008 by AshleyD]

I have heard all of two people here shouting conspiracy against atheists. When in fact, in my short time here, I have seen far more Christian-bashing than anything else going on. And most of the remarks are extremely venomous, demeaning and cruel.
Seems that some people go out of their way to bring it in to a topic. If that's not possible, then they will open a thread on it. I can just about bet that if the roles were reversed, it would not be tolerated.

Originally posted by Conspiriology
Yes you do, on all three counts and I am trying to explain that so you might understand better. I mean this is academic Dale Carnegie stuff here Mad. How you insult while you call it challenging, I call it arguing and if ones comparing an Easter bunny to god isn't mocking then I suggest you explain why then use such a comparison?

we constantly do explain the comparison....
let's say i claim the easter bunny is real
and you claim that god is real
i can't prove my claim
you can't prove your claim
but i can't disprove your claim and you cannot disprove mine

the likelihood of their existence, in terms of logic, is equal

When AncientVoid adds not one not two BUT FOUR lauging emoticons in a row arfter he uses an analogy to convey something incredulous, do you not think I take that as him lauging AT me and not with me?

take it up with void, not myself
and even if void were in the wrong... you're labeling all atheists on the acts of one person

That I wouldn't see it as arrogant or condescending? This is the same kind of thing your own celebrated Atheist Author Sam Harris is trying to get you guys to understand.

Saying they are improvable doesn't cut it. I can prove the Easter bunny exists in the context of its traditional invention to the costume one wears at Easter.

and i could show you that it also exists in the context of ancient pagan rights that were actually quite religious...
so they are on equal ground

I will not see what that has to do with the other.

again, i already mentioned it
i could also compare it to santa claus, dragons, an invisible pink unicorn, a flying spaghetti monster, a celestial teapot, leprechauns, and many other things on the same grounds

now, you'll probably put the same cultural convention spin on santa.. but that's actually a character of norse religious origin...
so it's also equally comparable.
all the figures mentioned have a religious context or some sort of improvable nature to them.

I suggest you can't see God for the same reason you are having trouble seeing other distinctions in your post ,, you just refuse to.

ah, the old "i can't see god because i don't want god to exist" myth...
i spent 1 1/2 - 2 years actively searching myself spiritually...
sorry, the line is a hateful myth

That's your choice but with it comes the consequences that you would rather see as some conspiracy rather then reality that you get back what you put out and generally you get it back ten fold.

read carefully: i see reality

as each other, I don't see how that is a problem unless you think she is doing it against her will? If that is the case then I would tell you you're adding a new context that this statement is not trying to address.

the context is that of forcing the beliefs onto children who don't know better than to accept authority....
i thought i had made that quite clear.

This is NOT implying COMLIANCE under the threat of subversion or coersion by force or misogynistic discrimination. If interpreting it that way helps you rationalize you world view about the bible and Christianity then I would expect this is why you are saying many other antagonistic views which are not accurate.

well, considering it was a culture of misogynistic discrimination and women didn't know any other option than to comply...
yeah, i don't think i'm really rationalizing here, i'm just showing you that the views are corrosive

Are you saying atheists are not arrogant? Or are you saying the stereotype is not true?

i'm saying the stereotype is not true
atheists are seemingly no more likely to be arrogant than any other group...
though i'd say that if someone believes they have the absolute, infallible truth about the universe...that's pretty arrogant.

I would suggest to you that it is or I guess i'd be saying OK OK Jews are always willing to pick up the tab ok ok Japanese don't all walk around with cameras on theor chests OK OK Blacks aren't better boxers then whites. The fact is Mad,, there is often a reason stereotypes get cast but to deny this is in and of itself a form of arrogance so you are incorrect.

…ok, so you’re going to stereotype a broadly varied group of people who only share a single statement of disbelief…
that’s about as logical as saying “all people who have the favorite color red are stingy…”

actually…jews are often willing to pick up the tab
the japanese don’t always walk around with cameras around their chests
and blacks aren’t necessarily better boxers than whites. It’s a case by case basis

so the stereotypes are obviously off

there is a big difference between challenging someones views and critisizing them as stupid. It's a matter of diplomacy in conflict resolution. It's a matter of making your point while they are willing to listen. I don't think I have to explain how you lose your audience the moment you insult them do I?

calling a view stupid and insulting someone are two different things. Attacking arguments and attacking people are separate tactics. Show me an ad hominem attack… oh, I forgot that christians tend to attach themselves to the argument and take any offensive to their beliefs as a severe personal attack

(shaking head like a cartoon) what! there you go again Mad, making sweeping generizations about religious people that simply just are NOT true. I am sure there are some religions that believe medicine is evil but I can tell you the hospitals are filled with catholics, Baptists, lutherans and many other people with religious convictions and YOU KNOW THIS but you insist on seeing them through this convoluted perception of reality and we are a reflection of your attitude towards us.

…I never said that any large demographic of people held these views and you’re clearly creating a strawman
I just said that it’s possible for people to adopt children that hold that view… and yet atheists can’t…

you know what, i'm fed up. you miss the point, you basically imply that any discrimination against atheist is solely on our shoulders... something that is actually often done with those that have suffered greater injustices that we have.
just goes to show you that the problem in attitudes are in the culture
sure, atheists may come off badly, but that's because most people don't understand the concept of "questioning" and "reasoning" and "logic" and immediately dive into base logic.
they then take little jokes that people make and say "you missed the point!" as if the person was saying something serious....

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul



we constantly do explain the comparison....

the likelihood of their existence, in terms of logic, is equal

That's my point mad I DIDN'T ASK FOR THE COMPARISON
secondly, that wasn't the context the comparison was given, it was given to mock the logic of our believing in it. If you constantly explain the comparison ? Gee hows that working for ya? I would bet that Christians see it the same way Valle and sisler did and the same as I do.

What exactly are you trying to prove?

take it up with void, not myself
and even if void were in the wrong... you're labeling all atheists on the acts of one person

Again Mad you are not gettiing this,, read my post, where do you hallucinate such a conclusion when clearly I was using his post for an example of why that kind of dialogue only breeds contempt. Asking if you could see that but NO, what do YOU see?? You take it as a fault of my own using it to say ALL Atheists are like him. No wonder you think it is a conspiracy

again, i already mentioned it
i could also compare it to santa claus, dragons, an invisible pink unicorn, a flying spaghetti monster, a celestial teapot, leprechauns, and many other things on the same grounds

And your point would be what Mad? Please tell us, what point are you trying to make? Then tell me WHY you are trying to make that point. I am asking because obviously the "comparison" isn't as good as you think for whatever reason you insist on explaining it.

and i could show you that it also exists in the context of ancient pagan rights that were actually quite religious...
so they are on equal ground

And you would be as right as you would be proving that in fact they exist

now, you'll probably put the same cultural convention spin on santa.. but that's actually a character of norse religious origin...
so it's also equally comparable. all the figures mentioned have a religious context or some sort of improvable nature to them.

You consistently deny the existence of God because you personally have never seen him but you reject out of hand personal testimony from theists who claim to have experienced God as a reality in their lives.

While you don't believe in God, you feel justified on bashing God or attacking those who believe in something that you KNOW doesn't exist, while knowing fighting against or even discussing about a non-existent being are the symptoms of a believer.

Denial?

Why then are you not going to the malls on Christmas with the same mission and pulling santas beard off debunking him?

Now try that with GOD,, debunk him knowing you believe that if something cannot be touched, seen, heard, or measured in some way, then it must not exist, yet you fail to see the irony of your calling Christians "narrow-minded". or words to that effect.

You might think I don't see it from a scientific perspective and you would be correct but it is WHY I don't that you are missing regarding your search for the truth. Scientific truth is not the same as spiritual truth mad.

Scientific truth is the degree to which a statement corresponds with reality. Reality is limited to that which is directly perceivable through our natural senses or indirectly ascertained through the proper use of reason. Reason is a tool of critical thought that limits the truth of a statement according to the strict tests of the scientific method. For a statement to be true it must be testable, falsifiable, parsimonious, and logical.

However, is it really logical to claim that a mindless, meaningless cosmos, after countless eons, coughed up rational minds that can locate and pursue meaning? Where is the proof that rational, logical thought should be the basis for our lives? If my meaning, created in my mind, insists there is no logic or meaning to life, then what?

What justification does the atheist have for claiming we are material accidents with no eternal, objective purpose in life and then turn around and demand that we form meaning according to his “logical,” but unproven, premises.

This lack of coherence in the purely naturalistic and materialistic view is one of the weakest conclusions atheism offers

ah, the old "i can't see god because i don't want god to exist" myth...

Does God exist Mad?

I rest my case.

i spent 1 1/2 - 2 years actively searching myself spiritually...

Rocks don't live that long do they? Sorry I add a little levity to this discussion but I am not sure what you mean by that 1 - 2 years and don't really know how you searched but I wouldn't have given up with the attitude of it being a hateful myth. It suggests to me you think you got cheated or you are angry at God.

Pretty hard to rationalize your hate and anger about a non enitity, what exactly were you expecting anyway?

the context is that of forcing the beliefs onto children who don't know better than to accept authority....
i thought i had made that quite clear.

Yes Mad they don't know better then to accept authority it is why I force the belief in looking both ways before crossing the street because they don't know any better It's called Parenting and I can assure you,,aren't going to persuade me that reading the teachings of Jesus Christ is going to harm my kids anymore then reading Jack and the bean stalk.

Ill tell you right now, I have heard this argument about the way we Christians raise our kids from six Atheists in the last two days so it must be something you all have discussed as having a "URGENT PRIORITY" I mean after all,, it is for the well being of children!

I am saying this with the extreme restraint that you and anyone else suggesting such absurd assertions,,

BE ADVISED: You can say whatever you like about me, Christians in general and our God
BUT BACK OFF OUR KIDS AND HOW WE BRING THEM UP

GOT IT! take it DEAD SERIOUS!

That isn't a threat Mad it's just

REALLY GOOD ADVICE


Yeah were done here

- Con



[edit on 15-1-2008 by Conspiriology]

Originally posted by Conspiriology
When AncientVoid adds not one not two BUT FOUR lauging emoticons in a row arfter he uses an analogy to convey something incredulous, do you not think I take that as him lauging AT me and not with me? That I wouldn't see it as arrogant or condescending?

First of all laughing at an idea and a person is two different things. I don't see how you could have thought I was laughing at you. Personally it means no difference to me if someone puts 1 or 4 laughing emoticons.
Fine I’ll let you prove me wrong (and you could also make me look stupid) by providing evidence. I tend to find things stupid or illogical when a claim like that is made with absolutely no proof at all especially against an evidence based theory.

Edit:

Originally posted by Conspiriology
You consistently deny the existence of God because you personally have never seen him but you reject out of hand personal testimony from theists who claim to have experienced God as a reality in their lives.

I was wondering, how do these people that claim to have experienced god know it's god?

[edit on 15-1-2008 by AncientVoid]