Sure it does. The people in heaven will be sitting around feeling guilty because they didn't save your soul, while you roast in the lake of fire.

^ Said with tongue firmly in cheek.

Here's a thought: is anyone familiar with meme theory? Dawkins talks about it a bit in The God Delusion. Memes are how culture evolves, it's a form of cultural or mental Darwinism. Words like "pwned" are memes. So are political and religious ideologies.

What if memes were not just thoughts spread by people, imitated by people, and evolved through people, but actually were "alive" in some sense -- self-replicating and having a survival agenda of their own? What if the god meme is actually a real mental virus (as opposed to being one allegorically, which is something I've said on the board before, as have others)? The only way it can reproduce and evolve is if it infects new hosts.

This would explain why Christianity is so much about "you're with us or against us." The Christian meme is particularly virulent and requires a rapid rate of infection in order for it to spread.

Just in the spirit of "what if" -- what if atheism/agnosticism is the antidote to the virus? That would explain the enimity for atheists when there is absolutely no real reason for there to be. The god virus lashing out against its anti-mimetic.

Wow. What was in that cup of coffee I had this morning?

I'm just gonna put this out there, and then I'll go back to reading the new posts that come after this.


I'm Christian, and I honestly don't care if you believe in God or not. If you don't want to believe in what I do, that's fine. It's your choice. I have quite a few friends who are Atheist, and we've got an understanding: You believe what you want, and so will I.

As for a conspiracy? I highly doubt that. If you think that Atheist's can't run for public office, why don't you actually try and run? See what happens. If you lose, then you can claim conspiracy, but if you win, what then?

Originally posted by Valdimer
As for a conspiracy? I highly doubt that. If you think that Atheist's can't run for public office, why don't you actually try and run? See what happens. If you lose, then you can claim conspiracy, but if you win, what then?

it's unlikely. there was a recent poll, only 47% of americans said they would vote for an atheist.

i forgot to bring up the outrageous CNN piece on discrimination against atheists that featured a roundtable discussion... with 2 christians and a jew. all of which agreed that atheists should just shut up.

yeah, that was fair. the only reason they changed was because of the outrage from the atheists that saw it was actively voiced.

You know I have been thinking about this a lot and I have to agree with MM atheist have been persecuted because of their beliefs. They cannot hold public office, everyone argues with them about it and tries to convert them too.

Well then we should throw someone else into the mix. What about the Santeros and Santeria? They have been getting a bad rap also because of their beliefs. I don’t see any of them in public office either. We should fight this all the way. I have some friends who are Santeros and I know how they are being portrayed and persecuted. They should hold public office too.

Maybe what we would need is a religious representative for each public office? I mean if we are going to argue about public officials religious beliefs and how others are not allowed to hold office because of said belief wouldn’t it be better to have a representative of each belief in office?

Its funny we argue about religion in office and such, when this country was founded on a religious belief not accepted in another country and when local beliefs of the indigenous people were shunned and some made to convert.

Why is it so friggin hard to let people believe what they want to believe and just that? Why do we always have to try to convert them to our beliefs and such? Heck if you want to believe the sky is purple and not blue then sure go right ahead. That’s your belief and that’s you.

The best religion for this is and I will tell you the Amish. When an Amish youth reaches the age of 16 they go through rumspringa. This is where the teen is allowed to go outside and see for himself if he wants to be a part of the Amish religion or not. Maybe we should take a tip from this.
Now I have gotten way off post so ill shut up.

Enjoy

Ok, so instead of going by the polls, why not actually try it? Would you be willing to do something like that, or just sit back and complain that the majority of the population doesn't want to vote for someone that has no preference, or lack thereof, of religion?

Originally posted by Valdimer
Ok, so instead of going by the polls, why not actually try it? Would you be willing to do something like that, or just sit back and complain that the majority of the population doesn't want to vote for someone that has no preference, or lack thereof, of religion?

well... you should complain about bigotry.
especially when the US federal government only has 1 atheist elected official. out of 537, 1. and he only revealed this after he was elected.
atheists make up a far larger proportion of the country than that, yet they don't get representation. it's not for lack of trying, it because trying in a bigoted society that hasn't recognized a group as moral, let alone equal, is a bit pointless.
first atheists need to be seen as moral individuals, then equals, before we can finally get a true say.

Who said anything about bigotry?

I sure didn't.

What I'm trying to say is, why not attempt to prove the system wrong? Run for a public office. See what happens. Is that something YOU are willing to do to help Atheists get the proper respect they deserve?

Originally posted by Valdimer
Who said anything about bigotry?

I sure didn't.

...i brought up bigotry. when people won't vote for you just because you're an atheist, they are being bigots.

What I'm trying to say is, why not attempt to prove the system wrong? Run for a public office. See what happens. Is that something YOU are willing to do to help Atheists get the proper respect they deserve?

well... i'm 18 and lack the resources to run for a government position of importance.
sure, people can get elected to the smaller positions because religion isn't an issue, the real issues are what actually matters there

...i'm also not in america at the moment, so i can't really run for elected office.

From what you and MM and others are saying, religion has its impact on all offices. It shouldn't matter if they are federal, state, or local, going on the argument that I've read so far.

Whether you're an American citizen or not ( I don't know if you are, so I'm just generalizing ) shouldn't you start small, and work your way up? Start at the local level, and go from there?

As a Christian, I honestly don't care what they believe, as long as they have my best interests at heart. That's what I'd vote for.

Politics and best interests are like oil and water, and that's for a whole other thread, lol.

Valdimer, you are probably one of a very few people who actually care about what a person will do in office as opposed to what his or her supernatural beliefs are. You are the exception to the rule.

I think the exercise of trying to get an atheist elected to office -- in one of the seven states that have actual statues against it -- would be an interesting exercise.

The problem becomes, of course, how to determine if the atheist lost because of lack of belief in god, or on the issues. That would make it difficult to find out the REAL reason why they weren't elected -- if, indeed, they weren't.

I don't live in one of the seven states, I live in probably one of the only areas of the country where it might not matter that I'm an atheist, the SF Bay Area. However, due to some poor choices in my youth, I couldn't run for office anyway. Nor do I have the resources.

But it's an interesting idea nonetheless. Anybody reading this thread in one of the seven "bigot" states, and have a hankering to run for office as an exercise in how religious beliefs affect the outcome of elections?

Anyone?

MM

You never replied to my willingness to put up your 8 id really rather you didnts in my local church in that other thread?

LOL Karl, that thread was getting to my blood pressure so I stopped reading it.

Do you need a link to the 8 IRRYDs?

Even if they were up for only one day and you posted a picture I'd have a huge laugh. that would be a real hoot.

Only in internet land can you find someone willing to do things like that.

Sure no prob ill do it this sunday my minister thinks its a good idea, he believes that if you cant question the existence of god then how can you even begin to believe he exists?

Hey guys, if you don't what religious people to hate you, let them enjoy their religion and post it up on the walls. if you stop making it look like you're oppressing them, then they will like you. Win their hearts through better actions. Fact remains that in this country, the masses hold control. And because the Mases are religious, then they hold it out. The reason why 60-75% of the nation hates gays, atheists, etc is simply because they broadcast their stuff on the streets, and they don't like it, so they hate the persons in questions. I know, it's a win lose situation and atheists lose because no matter what they do, Christians wont like them, but that be the way it is. If atheists respect others, respect is shown at them, it they don't, then likewise. Their is a bias against atheist is the US and that's true, but if you don't bad mouth the ones bad mouthing you, then within 2 month's time,. you shall have respect. You must beat the bias in order to win respect.

Fact remains that most atheists bad mouth others for their beliefs. Maybe you guys don't, but most do. And until that changes, most religious people won't either.

I may sound unfair, but when you work with the masses, unfair is the major player.


Oh yea, 16 % irreligious? probably most are either from China, where the figures are, ahem, altered, or just non religious being that they don't practice their faith, but still believe in a holy power.


If any of you were smart, you would win the respect of the masses (being Christian in this nation) by joining them in renouncing radical Islam. If all faiths, atheists, and for that matter, people, moderate Islam included, renounce the hatred of these foreigners, you will surly all get along.

The best way to convert is through peace, words of Jesus himself. Also this:

"If you go into a village, and they hate you and through stones at you, clean your feet, and leave"

Maybe that isn't exact, but close enough.

Perhaps, going off topic, the US should do the same in Iraq

[edit on 27-9-2007 by Gorman91]

[edit on 27-9-2007 by Gorman91]

Originally posted by Gorman91
Hey guys, if you don't what religious people to hate you, let them enjoy their religion and post it up on the walls.

...well, it depends on the walls. if it's the walls of a government building, i think i need to step in and bring up that they are in violation of the bill of rights.

if you stop making it look like you're oppressing them, then they will like you.

honestly, we're 10-20% of the population, anyone thinking that 10-20% of the population is oppressing 70% of the population is just not thinking clearly.

Win their hearts through better actions.

atheist poster boy bill gates has been doing things through better actions... nobody seems to care.
they say atheists don't build hospitals, that's because they're too busy feeding whole countries.

Fact remains that in this country, the masses hold control.

actually, i'd say that those that hold money and feed the masses information hold control

And because the Mases are religious, then they hold it out. The reason why 60-75% of the nation hates gays, atheists, etc is simply because they broadcast their stuff on the streets, and they don't like it, so they hate the persons in questions.

so your dislike trumps my freedom. to be free i must not exercise my freedom.

freedom is slavery?

I know, it's a win lose situation and atheists lose because no matter what they do, Christians wont like them, but that be the way it is.

yay... bigotry is just the way it is. let's make no attempt to stop it!

If atheists respect others, respect is shown at them, it they don't, then likewise.

...most atheists are as respectful as any other group and we're disproportionately law abiding in the states... yet we're still demonized.

Their is a bias against atheist is the US and that's true, but if you don't bad mouth the ones bad mouthing you, then within 2 month's time,. you shall have respect. You must beat the bias in order to win respect.

...we don't bad mouth people. we refrain from ad hom attacks, just look at ats. only a few token atheists actually participate in such foolish behavior, and then they change their tune once they get more used to the boards.

atheists won't get respect. we're quite respectful to others, we're just expected to give an unnatural pass to religious beliefs and aren't supposed to criticize them... which is odd, because i see christians criticize each other's beliefs all the time.

Fact remains that most atheists bad mouth others for their beliefs. Maybe you guys don't, but most do. And until that changes, most religious people won't either.

no, most don't. they bad mouth the beliefs.
show me atheists bad mouthing individuals and i will believe you.
atheists tend to actually know arguing methods, ad hominem attacks are very taboo when you're participating in a real argument.

I may sound unfair, but when you work with the masses, unfair is the major player.

yes, and we managed to overcome it with other things.. why not this one?

Oh yea, 16 % irreligious? probably most are either from China, where the figures are, ahem, altered, or just non religious being that they don't practice their faith, but still believe in a holy power.

...chinese traditional religion is actually on the chart.
nice little baseless attack on my numbers
no, this chart just represents that there are countries like sweden where 82% of the population is atheist (and it's such a great country to live in, too)

If any of you were smart, you would win the respect of the masses (being Christian in this nation) by joining them in renouncing radical Islam.

...um, we do.
and we renounce moderate islam
and radical christianity
and moderate christianity
and new age
name a relgion we renounce it

the problem is, we choose to put radical islam on the level it belongs, the same one as radical christianity.

If all faiths, atheists, and for that matter, people, moderate Islam included, renounce the hatred of these foreigners, you will surly all get along.

yes, let's unite in picking on an easy target while avoiding that the real issue isn't RADICAL religion, it's just regular religion.

The best way to convert is through peace, words of Jesus himself. Also this:

he and his dad really have a disagreement on this stuff. jesus seems to be mellow.. his dad asks for genocides and burns cities to the ground

"If you go into a village, and they hate you and through stones at you, clean your feet, and leave"

Maybe that isn't exact, but close enough.

yes, let's leave a secular democracy because some people have the idiotic idea that it's christian theocracy (notice that idiotic is modifying idea here, not people)
nevermind that many of the founders were deists

the problem is that you're expecting the victims to change

don't like segregation? go with it, and eventually you'll be allowed in the white folks...

that's essentially the same argument you're giving us.

[edit on 9/27/07 by madnessinmysoul]

Absolutely brilliant post, MIMS.

Gorman, your entire statement was hateful and angry, and people say that WE are the ones being this way.

How can a minority persecute a majority? When the majority isn't giving the minorities equal rights and tell them to shut up, and when the minorities still stand up for their rights, it's called persecution.

That isn't persecution. It's projection.

These exercises on the boards have recently brought one thing home to me that I touched on earlier in this thread: that the way a great majority of Christians in this country treat others that don't share their beliefs are extremely redolent of emotional and psychological abuse. Deflecting, blaming, diminishing; these are all tactics emotional abusers use.

The parallels are really astonishing. I think I may have to do an article for the newsletter now. Thanks for bringing it to my attention.

Our government was designed to keep church and state separate.
We have a freedom OF and FROM religion in this country.
Also our constitution was designed to protect the rights of the minority so they don't get stamped out by the majority.

I personally have no problems with religious people. I do have a problem when a religious person tries to prevent evolution (a fact) from being taught in public school; a place where religion should have ZERO influence.

Not only are atheists persecuted but science is also being persecuted.

Fact remains that in this country, the masses hold control.

Actually the United States is a constitutional republic where the masses are unable to persecute the minority.

And because the Mases are religious, then they hold it out. The reason why 60-75% of the nation hates gays, atheists, etc is simply because they broadcast their stuff on the streets, and they don't like it, so they hate the persons in questions.

When was the last time a gay person or an atheist came to your house, knocked on your door and explained why you were going to hell?

When was the last time a gay person or atheist left a unsolicited pamphlet on your windshield telling you why you were going to hell?

When was the last time you saw a gay person or atheist on TV begging for money so they could buy a bigger mansion for themselves.... I mean a bigger church for their parishners.

I'm sorry, who's "broadcasting their stuff on the streets"?