Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
and honestly, at least we atheists give reasons for our disdain of religion...

Hello again, MIMS. Well, I could give reasons why I dislike atheism or why I believe/know it is false and foolish but it would waste both our time and, truthfully, I'm tired of being labeled a bigot when I'm outspoken about something I know for a fact.

Atheists might give reasons why they disdain religion but it feels rude for me to do it here to them in return. As a Christian, I'm sure you know what my reasons would be without me listing them all here.

Take care.

Originally posted by AshleyD
Hello again, MIMS. Well, I could give reasons why I dislike atheism or why I believe/know it is false and foolish but it would waste both our time and, truthfully,

i cut this weirdly, but it'll come in handy later.

listen, i know it's a belief, but it's a belief that, like any other belief, must be challenged and verified.

you don't know it.
there's no way to prove that "i don't believe in god" leads to bad things

I'm tired of being labeled a bigot when I'm outspoken about something I know for a fact.

um...
you can't know that for a fact

mainly because it goes contrary to fact that atheism is foolish

in fact, the only reason you're saying it's foolish is because the words of a fool compel you to...yes, paul was a fool (not just for saying that specific thing, there are many reasons i've repeatedly outlined in some of the 7000+ posts i've made and i really don't feel like going back over that stuff again)

Atheists might give reasons why they disdain religion but it feels rude for me to do it here to them in return. As a Christian, I'm sure you know what my reasons would be without me listing them all here.

"because the bible says so"
that's the first "reason" that came to mind

and we don't necessarily disdain religion, so might actually see the concept of religion as a necessary evil or a crutch that most of humanity requires for one reason or another or a phenomenon too large to go away without being inherently evil
now current religions we tend to get more specific about...

honestly, it's not that it would be rude, it's more that it would be an insult to common sense and logic for you to give most of those "reasons" to us...
at least if they're anything like what other christians say....

Originally posted by AshleyD

I believe atheism is a false philosophy

Ashley can you explain why you feel Atheism is a false philosophy but don't feel that Christianity or any other religion isn't a false philosophy? Is it simply because we don't believe in your god that it's false?

Doesn't your religion teach you not to judge?

Originally posted by Simon_Boudreaux
Ashley can you explain why you feel Atheism is a false philosophy but don't feel that Christianity or any other religion isn't a false philosophy? Is it simply because we don't believe in your god that it's false?

Yes I can but I'm not sure what the point of it would be.

Doesn't your religion teach you not to judge?

Yes and no. We are told not to judge people but that a wise man judges all things. Atheism is a thing. So I'm good to go.

Originally posted by Simon_Boudreaux
The point of it would be why is Atheism a false philosophy but your religion isn't. To tell you the truth I don't think you have a reason. I think you are just scared of us because we might be on to something and you and every other religious person is afraid their invisible man in the sky might not exist.

Alright. I didn't answer you previously for two very specific reasons and they happen to be the same reasons I ignored MIMS when he asked me to explain it right before you. I will, however, take the time to explain it to you because you and I have never encountered each other before on ATS whereas MIMS should have known better:

1). Because what is happening now is exactly what would have happened had I answered your question: I am becoming the focus of the debate. Making someone's personal beliefs, opinion, or view the focus of the discussion and not the actual topic at hand never does anything but derail and redirect the topic.

2). Because I have answered this very question before multiple times on ATS only to have the threads go on for pages with multiple novel-length replies between myself and other members. You probably aren't familiar with my postings around ATS so I understand why you would assume I was dodging your question. However, I'm probably one of the last people you want to accuse of not knowing why they believe what they do.

It comes down to two things: Both apologetic studies I've researched intensely for over five years, apologetic studies I researched loosely for over ten years, an apologetic website I own and author, as well as a series of spiritual encounters I have experienced. I'll happily discuss the apologetic research with others (and have before countless times on ATS) but the experiences I keep to myself as there is no way to replicate them for the skeptic.

Between intellectual evidence (textual exegesis, hermeneutics, undesigned coincidences, extrabiblical historical documents, the fulfillment of biblical prophecy, archaeological support, science, etc.) and supernatural revelation and experiences, I am 100% convinced there is a God, Therefore I am 100% convinced atheism is false.

That is the brief explanation. All of the above has been explained by myself on multiple threads to the point where I've actually been accused of hogging and derailing threads and preaching. So, I didn't really want to waste anyone's time explaining it all again here even when I was asked by both you and MIMS. I understand this thread is about a conspiracy against atheism and not a thread opening the floor for me to preach. Hope that helps clarify why I ignored you before.

I feel your religion is a hypocrisy. Why? Because of this very reason. You feel because Atheist don't believe what you believe then our beliefs aren't valid.

No. I know atheism is false just like I know a flat Earth is false.

Oh, and a wise man wouldn't judge us atheist the way you do simply because of our beliefs. A wise man would be curious as to why we have these beliefs.

Considering I used to be an atheist (something I have also admitted on here multiple times), I'm pretty sure I know why you hold your beliefs. At least I think I do if you are anything like I used to be.

Take care.

[edit on 5/12/2008 by AshleyD]

Thank you Ashley. I wasn't trying to make you the focus of the debate or derail the thread. I just wanted you to explain why you felt the things you felt.

But I wouldn't compare Atheism to people that think the world is flat. Atheist are not ignorant. We have valid reasons for what we believe the same as Christians have valid reasons for what they believe.

I just don't appreciate how Christians or any other religion attacks Atheism when history shows all the things that have been done in the name of religion.

I don't go into anyone's place of worship and tell them their beliefs are wrong and they are ignorant for believing in god. Nor do I know any other Atheist that does so. But yet we are attacked repeatedly by other religions.

I don't see any kind of conspiracy of Atheist trying to destroy Christianity and if there is it is only being done by a few.



[edit on 12-5-2008 by Simon_Boudreaux]

[edit on 12-5-2008 by Simon_Boudreaux]

Originally posted by Simon_Boudreaux
Thank you Ashley. I wasn't trying to make you the focus of the debate or derail the thread. I just wanted you to explain why you felt the things you felt.

Oh, I know you weren't. No hard feelings and I apologize if you thought I was accusing you of such an attempt. I am merely saying it would have derailed to the topic- not that you were purposely trying to do so.

But I wouldn't compare Atheism to people that think the world is flat. Atheist are not ignorant. We have valid reasons for what we believe the same as Christians have valid reasons for what they believe.

I just wanted to point something out: You keep using the word 'valid' but I have not done so. To some extent, atheism can seem to be a 'valid' world view. Due to science taking a naturalistic approach and due to the fact God has not poked His head out of the clouds to say 'Hello!' it is understandable how some would consider atheism valid. However, the word I used and was focusing on concerning atheism was 'false.'

I just don't appreciate how Christians or any other religion attacks Atheism when history shows all the things that have been done in the name of religion.

No doubt some terrible things were done with religion in mind. You are correct. But as a series of recent threads on ATS have proven, secular atheistic states have not been innocent. Then we're left arguing 'in the name of religion' and 'in the name of atheism,' comparing numbers of death tolls where each side tries to lessen the impact caused by their side- which seems terribly morbid to me, and the thread goes on forever. So, I'll leave the rest alone.

I don't go into anyone's place of worship and tell them their beliefs are wrong and they are ignorant for believing in god. Nor do I know any other Atheist that does so. But yet we are attacked repeatedly by other religions.

You don't and that's great. Most atheists don't. We live in somewhat of a bubble over here in the West but the atrocities committed against churches in the East over the last century by atheistic states have occurred.

I don't see any kind of conspiracy of Atheist trying to destroy Christianity and if there is it is only being done by a few.

I'm glad to see we somewhat agree on this although we are in the wrong thread to be doing so. There is another thread this one inspired called 'Is there an Atheist Conspiracy to Overthrow Christianity.' In brief, I disagree with you when you say there is not a conspiracy to destroy Christianity because evidence was provided to show there was but I do agree with you when you say it is only being done by a minority and not all atheists are guilty.

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
ad hom ad hom ad hom ad hom ad hom ad hom

Ad Hom? MIMS, if you want to defend a liar, gossip, and slanderer, go right ahead. It's only making you look biased and dishonest. But I'm going to call it like I see it.

...screw it, i'm not going to bother counting. there's such a thing as denying ignorance beyond the ban.

honestly, it's quite odd that around half of a "generation" of atheist members got banned at nearly the same time, ain't it?
and the ones that weren't banned were the least influential and least fence walking...

I was afraid of what I mentioned above would make the other site the topic of discussion. I only brought it up because that is where I remembered seeing something about sponsors being related to the recent string of bannings and I wanted to connect what was brought up on the other site with what the member said in the above screen shot. That member was most likely banned again for being a formerly banned member who was lying about being a lurker- not for being an atheist (which they even denied being in your screen shot) or for defending atheism. I'm calling shenanigans on such an accusation.

The members were banned for violating the T&C's about recruiting, surely some were banned due to their trash talk about ATS members and staff, and who knows what else. I haven't been back to look after being so disgusted with what I saw the first few times.

and to be quite blunt, the accusation about the investing is easily substantiated...

I'm not saying there are or there are not Christian sponsors. How on earth am I going to know that? I'm saying I highly, highly doubt sponsors would come in and sweep the site clean of atheists. MIMS, countless atheists are still members here. It is a false accusation against ATS to say people are getting banned just for being atheists or due to the owners being greedy and wanting to please the sponsors. That is false and it is slander. The members were banned for the reasons above: T&C violations. Furthermore, there were many other members who were banned yet they happened to be theists. So it is not a matter of banning the atheists due to their beliefs.

and if you've ever been on the "other site" and actually paid attention without distorting things, you'd realize that the website in question is denying ignorance far more than this site is
the motto has become a sham, easily sold out for the corporate dollar.

Then take yourself right on over there MIMS. I'm sorry you are confusing 'denying ignorance' with what I saw some people vocally admit over there: That they troll certain members over here in order to get them warned or banned, making accusations against ATS owners, and telling outright lies about certain members and staff. It's Disgusting and I don't know how you can be defending it.

1:christian preaching allowed in every thread an atheist starts in the FST, O&C, or CiR sections without reprimand while atheists have been told (via u2u) not to preach when they bring up the whole atheism thing in threads where it's irrelevant. both sides are wrong, both should, but aren't, punished.

Wrong. About a month ago there was not a day that went by without some of my Christian friends and me getting in trouble on ATS. We apologized for the behavior and have moved on. Some of my friends have also received warnings and post bans. Even I was threatened with a banning.

I can see that both sides have been in the wrong and that both sides have received reprimands but you are sitting there telling me that we're allowed to get away with murder while the atheists are being persecuted. A lot of the staff are even atheists, MIMS. They're not going to do that. We [Christians] have gotten in trouble, too, but we don't run around the site screaming our heads off which is probably why you think we have never been reprimanded.

2: so-called-christians accusing all supporters of darwinism to be atheists or not proper christians, when that's quite ignorant...especially when you're talking about 2 chapters of one book of the bible...

I'm not sure about this one so I can't say much.

3: the mods allowing creationists to run rampant...

Now this is hysterical for so many obvious reasons. Allowing creationists to run rampant? Gee, MIMS. File a suggestion and request creationists be banned from the Origins Forum, I guess. But you won't ever realize what you just said sounds horribly hypocritical. Imagine had I said such a thing regarding evolutionists on that forum- I'm almost scared to think of the kind of fit you would throw.

4: the consistent threads against groups of people. they're there to inflame. "are atheists air-brushing history"? of course they are, because they're human and all humans airbrush history to a degree, so it should be "how are groups of people air-brushing history with regards to their particular viewpoints on religion?" or something of that sort that doesn't target a group.

I do agree with this to an extent but, unlike you, I will be objective. I've seen threads 'against' Christians, atheists, UFO believers, conservatives, liberals, Muslims, pagans, creationists, evolutionists, skeptics, believers, etc. It all goes back to getting out of the kitchen if you can't take the heat. And if you feel strongly about what you believe and you see your side under 'attack,' then respond to the thread and argue the points. Tell the OP why they are wrong instead of just screaming about persecution.

And since you specifically mentioned Whammy's thread I will take the time to defend him. This is exactly what I told him in U2U when so many people started complaining about his thread title: He used the term 'AtheISTS' and not 'AtheISM' because 'isms' can't airbrush history but 'ists' can. Pretty simple. Had he used the term 'Atheism' in the title, you guys would have said that an ism can't do squat. Your lack of objectivity is making this discussion with you maddening, MIMS. You're only seeing what you want to see and whatever you think makes you persecuted.

4a: more threads of the "everyone but my group is going to be punished" threads.

I don't even know what this one means. As in religion-wise? Then all I can say to that is, the next time someone tells you that you will be punished, simply take comfort in the fact you think they are wrong to begin with. If a Muslim told me I am going to Hell, it would have no impact on me. Get it? That is, assuming that is what you are even talking about. I apologize if I am misunderstanding you.

5: name calling, it's on the rise.

Quite possible but I have seen both sides be guilty of this and measures have already been put into place to curb such behavior.

this forum has become a shell of the one i joined 7000 posts ago. everything has declined in quality, even the bits of craziness you get here and there are infinitely less entertaining.

Then don't let the door hit you.

[edit on 5/14/2008 by AshleyD]

Originally posted by Bigwhammy
After all it's a philosophy that preaches the blind pitiless indifference of the world.

Of nature in general, maybe. But not in society. Evidence suggests that nature is blind and pitiless - maybe ask the poor chinese and Burmese people suffering from recent acts of nature.

It's a philosophy devoid of hope or redemption. It's a cruel philosophy.

No. I have hope and I have redemption. It is based on each other and ourselves. On people. Those other beings with which we interact everyday.

If you ever achieve a level of intellectual honesty, you might have redeemed yourself, gaining back a degree of integrity. In my mind at least.

The weak are deemed not fit and not worthy of survival.

Don't remember learning that in atheist school.

It's answer to the question of death is worms.

The worms! They'll eat you alive! Or maybe when your dead. Unless you are cremated, then it could even be fish*!

I would guess the answer to the question of death is that you die. Your life ends. You no longer exist. It'll be a bit like before you were conceived and born. If you don't like that, well, ain't life a bugger. Make the best of the one you have. I am.

But I understand that some people are scared of non-existence.

'Thus that which is the most awful of evils, death, is nothing to us, since when we exist there is no death, and when there is death we do not exist.' Epicurus

There is no meaning to life

We make our own meaning dude. Looks like your meaning at this current time is to deceive and misrepresent the position of others. If your god gives favours for that, you have a big hamper awaiting you.

and the only reason to act "good" is to get ahead.

Is it? I suppose when I act 'good' it is in someway looking for the approval of others that I care about. Most of us don't like to be social lepers.

Of course, you act 'good' (i.e., according to a book of rules) to hopefully gain the approval of some other super-dude - gotta be sitting next to jesus after you kick the bucket. Heh, suppose that's not aiming for a 'good' outcome.

Your beloved Dick Dawk teaches that life is all about the survival of your selfish genes - so it's a selfish philosophy as well.

Genes. Selfish genes. The genes act in their own best interests. Unless genes have a philosophy, that was quite a ridiculous statement.

If you had even bothered to actually read the words of Dawkins, rather than misrepresent the man, you would know he says no such thing for us. For humans. For society.

Because atheists have used Darwin's theory to try discredit faith in God, your philosophy is called Darwinism. Evolution is a scientific theory - Darwinism is the atheistic bastardization of it into a false and dangerous religion.

You discredit your faith. You do it almost every time you post. TBH, this is why Poe's law comes to mind when I read your posts.

All Darwin's theory suggests regarding faith is that there is no need for a supernatural answer for the development of species over the earth's history. If that challenges your faith, oh well. Get a better one. Nothing to do with atheists, that's science, that's what nature is telling us. Ain't atheist's fault your version of faith conflicts with real-world evidence. Get a faith that makes no real-world claims. Oom is useful in this regard.

*I'll probably have my ashes thrown into the nearest ocean. I like the sea. It's great. I also like fishies.

[edit on 14-5-2008 by melatonin]

Originally posted by Bigwhammy
[Thanks for proving my point about Darwinism vs. Evolution. Evolution does not dispense with the need for a supernatural God. As you guys are so fond of pointing out - it is about the origin of species - not the origin of life.

You are quite disingenuous really. Nor does darwinism. Darwin's theory never even attempted to explain abiogenesis, it was about the origin of species.

So why would anyone want to call a philosophical position involving natural abiogensis, 'darwinism' when darwin's theory never even went there?

That's laughable.

Yes, whammy, a 'scholarly' book from a 19th century calvinist who was a bit peeved that someone might even want to deny biblical creation and suggest nature could explain origin of species, and then have the gall to teach such ideas.

Who cares? He was wrong. Even Darwin wasn't an atheist, even when he could speculate on such abiogenetic scenarios in letters to friends - which still would not necessarily lead to atheism.

Darwinism isn't equivalent to atheism. Never was, and never will be. Some christians have been whining since Darwin and Wallace did the dirty deed. Claims of atheism have been thrown around by your type for people not of your thinking for a long time.

One skill you all have is the ability to play identity politics, and demonise those outside your collective. You see, not believing in your type of theism is not atheism, lots of other possibilities out there - ask around. Get off the atheism is teh suxorz program, and meet some other people.

Lots on this board. All kinds. Get out some time.

[edit on 15-5-2008 by melatonin]

I wish the religious nuts on this forum would slow down for a second and think for themselves for a moment.

How do you know? Do you know because a power-grab at the beginning of your religion told you what to know, or do you know because you have spent twenty years atop a mountain as an ascetic, pondering the issue?

Be honest with yourself: you know nothing of the divine, if there is even such a thing. I know nothing of it. Not one man or woman you will ever meet will ever know more about it than you did when you first heard the word "religion".

Now, this sorry state of affairs is because of one of two things:

Either God, in his infinite, ineffable wisdom has decided to keep mum on the entire topic and let humankind just blunder along and carve out a vast history of blood in the name of "the truth".

or

it's all complete shash, and the beardy, white-robed guy in the sky was actually a product of wishful thinking, and religious-types deal with absolute truths only because they have absolutely no idea.


Can I get a Baysean analysis on that please??

Originally posted by AshleyD
Then take yourself right on over there MIMS. I'm sorry you are confusing 'denying ignorance' with what I saw some people vocally admit over there: That they troll certain members over here in order to get them warned or banned, making accusations against ATS owners, and telling outright lies about certain members and staff. It's Disgusting and I don't know how you can be defending it.

Well you ARE talking to MIMS ashley, you know the Atheist that is more concerned about Nambla members civil rights being violated rather than be surprised at the absolute frivolity of the ACLU pedophile arguing for thier right to have consensual sex with boys. The irony is (to dispute mel and his defense over whammy) the irony is they use the same line of "so called logic" to argue their case. They say their is nothing said in the Bible about sex with boys being a sin.

Of course this was before all those signs we see today, yoou know like, Jumping off a cliff can be fatal. The same argument for the so called "gay gene" is the attraction to boys gene etc,. If this doesn't look like a path for a new era of social darwinism and why Darwinists are absolutlely, unequivocally just what whammy amd D'Souza says. Then again I think that has been obvious from the start.

The MOST ironic part of your post to MIMS is regarding that Long Post I kinda went off on a tangent and warned him, this was all going to come back on him. What he is saying and what he is complaining about is exactly what I told him he would have coming to him in so much Karmic receivership. What goes around comes around mims and I gotta say, I will be as indifferen't about it as you were to us.

The Atheist pity party site you guys are referring to, he says does a much better job of denying ignorance. I don't know what that means exactly because it is just another Atheist website where either they all have each other on ignore to deny the ignorance that is so superfluously saturated over there. Or he thinks that because none disagree with him.

The discussions I have seen there are the typical atheists claiming to be a victim while suggesting it is Christians responsible for it. That we should expect however. I mean after all they are Atheists. I am not surprised when unsaved people, act unsaved. I am not surprised when Atheists act like Atheists.

this forum has become a shell of the one i joined 7000 posts ago. everything has declined in quality, even the bits of craziness you get here and there are infinitely less entertaining. - MIMS

HA HA yeah I got to agree, It used to be called ATS = Attack Theist Stupidity to ATS = Atheists Talking Smack, ATS = Atheists Teaching Science etc. Their were a lot of em, but it was all about trashing Christians and Christianity. I remember the best argument you would see out of anyone at the time was people like Jedimiller defending Christianity. I think the last post you saw me give a "Christian" style argument was that one you saw of Astyanxit\in the AIDS thread.

I guess MIMS didn't take me serious when I told of a new kind Christology that would only turn the other cheek ONCE, then challenge their arguments unraveling the circular teflon semantics and double speak we have all seen and have been confused by.

Now we just exploit it when we see it and they call it quote mining as a programmed response like Daves cookie cutter copy pasted posts dubbed the form letter. You know what we been doing at Jreff has Atheists marginalized to the point where Creationism is the the new big thing and evolution is,,

well,, it's what its always been.


BUNK

- Con

[edit on 18-5-2008 by Conspiriology]