Proof that Christianity's a false religion

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posted on Sep, 24 2007 @ 09:26 PM
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Christian's clam that Jesus is the messiah and their savior and god but take this into consideration:

1) Isaiah 45 and Zafanai 3 shows that when the messiah arrives the world will unite under pure monotheism! No time in Jesus's life time did this happen.

Also, Christianity teaches that there are three gods (The Holy Spirit, God, and Jesus) that are one. Does that sound like pure monotheism to you?

2) Jesus said "Think not that I have come to abolish the law(Torah) and the prophets, I have come not to abolish them but to fulfill them. " - Matthew 5

* The Sabbath on SATURDAY is suppose to be an ETERNAL covenant but Christians do not follow that.

* Nor do ALL follow Circumcision which is also an ETERNAL covenant

*Nor do they celebrate Rosh Hashana or Yom Kippur

*Christmas or Easter was never mentioned in the OLD or NEW Testament, and these holidays have some origins of the Pagans!

* Also Christians does not eat kosher!

Jesus lied! He did change those rules!

3) Also the Old Testament NEVER SAID THE MESSIAH WILL DIE FOR OUR SINS!

"Every man shall die for HIS OWN sin" - Deuteronomy 24:16


also NOWHERE THE THE OLD TESTAMENT STATE THAT THE MESSIAH WILL HE A SECOND RETURN! And Christians claim Jesus will come back!

4) The Christian bible has been changed many times!

Here is the history of The "Bible"
youtube.com...

5) Jesus broke one of the ten commandments!

"And it was the sabbath day when Jesus made the clay, and opened his eyes." - John 9:14

"Observe the sabbath day and keep it holy, as the Lord your God commanded you."-Deuteronomy 5:12

5) The Old Testament was MISTRANSLATED TO FIT WITH JESUS!

The Christian idea of a virgin birth is derived from the verse in Isaiah 7:14 describing an "alma" as giving birth. The word "alma" has always meant a young woman, but Christian theologians came centuries later and translated it as "virgin." This accords Jesus' birth with the first century pagan idea of mortals being impregnated by gods.

6) God is one! Not Three(Jesus, The Holy Ghost, and God!)

"Hear O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is ONE" (Deut. 6:4).

7) Jesus's name has an origin of the devil!

When you pray to J-Esus, you are really praying to the Devil by his name Esus. Esus is the pagan, Satanic god of the Celtic Druids.

The Torah / Tanakh has been written the same since it was given to the Jews by Moses! Also there was a witness of about 33,000 people who heard God speak saying "This is what I want you to follow"!




posted on Sep, 25 2007 @ 06:35 AM
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Originally posted by arpgme
Christian's clam that Jesus is the messiah and their savior and god but take this into consideration:

1) Isaiah 45 and Zafanai 3 shows that when the messiah arrives the world will unite under pure monotheism! No time in Jesus's life time did this happen.


very good point.



Also, Christianity teaches that there are three gods (The Holy Spirit, God, and Jesus) that are one. Does that sound like pure monotheism to you?


well... not all of christianity teaches that. there are unitarian christians.



2) Jesus said "Think not that I have come to abolish the law(Torah) and the prophets, I have come not to abolish them but to fulfill them. " - Matthew 5

* The Sabbath on SATURDAY is suppose to be an ETERNAL covenant but Christians do not follow that.


they shift it to the day jesus rose, that's a bit of nitpicking.



* Nor do ALL follow Circumcision which is also an ETERNAL covenant


well, most christians in the western world get circumcised anyway.



*Nor do they celebrate Rosh Hashana or Yom Kippur


good point.



*Christmas or Easter was never mentioned in the OLD or NEW Testament, and these holidays have some origins of the Pagans!


well... judaism has its origin in paganism. yahweh was a mountain god that had a wife...



* Also Christians does not eat kosher!


true.



Jesus lied! He did change those rules!


well... see, you're assuming that "fulfill" means that the rules will continue to be followed. that's a problem. what does it mean for the law to be fulfilled?



3) Also the Old Testament NEVER SAID THE MESSIAH WILL DIE FOR OUR SINS!


also true, but that's because jesus is basically a version of mithras



"Every man shall die for HIS OWN sin" - Deuteronomy 24:16


yes, this is quite true.



also NOWHERE THE THE OLD TESTAMENT STATE THAT THE MESSIAH WILL HE A SECOND RETURN! And Christians claim Jesus will come back!


very true.



4) The Christian bible has been changed many times!

Here is the history of The "Bible"
youtube.com...


well... yes. but the hebrew scriptures were changed many times prior to them being written down. they were oral history well before they were written.



5) Jesus broke one of the ten commandments!

"And it was the sabbath day when Jesus made the clay, and opened his eyes." - John 9:14

"Observe the sabbath day and keep it holy, as the Lord your God commanded you."-Deuteronomy 5:12


healing a blind man is breaking a commandment? i'm pretty sure healing the sick would be keeping it holy.



5) The Old Testament was MISTRANSLATED TO FIT WITH JESUS!

The Christian idea of a virgin birth is derived from the verse in Isaiah 7:14 describing an "alma" as giving birth. The word "alma" has always meant a young woman, but Christian theologians came centuries later and translated it as "virgin." This accords Jesus' birth with the first century pagan idea of mortals being impregnated by gods.


yes, i've brought this up many times.



6) God is one! Not Three(Jesus, The Holy Ghost, and God!)

"Hear O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is ONE" (Deut. 6:4).


not a belief shared by all christians, some say 1=3=1 some say 1=1=1



7) Jesus's name has an origin of the devil!

When you pray to J-Esus, you are really praying to the Devil by his name Esus. Esus is the pagan, Satanic god of the Celtic Druids.


...no
that's just stupid.
jesus is a bastardized version of the hebrew "yeshu" or "yeshua"
it went through greek and then roman, and turned out as "jesus"



The Torah / Tanakh has been written the same since it was given to the Jews by Moses!


so funny that you actually believe that. there isn't evidence to support that at all!
just like there is 0 evidence to support that moses existed or that the jews were enslaved in israel.



Also there was a witness of about 33,000 people who heard God speak saying "This is what I want you to follow"!


really? cause you can't back that up either.



posted on Sep, 26 2007 @ 03:56 PM
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reply to post by arpgme
 



1) Isaiah 45 and Zafanai 3 shows that when the messiah arrives the world will unite under pure monotheism! No time in Jesus's life time did this happen.


You'll have to provide the verse of Is.45. I don't see what you mean at all.



Also, Christianity teaches that there are three gods (The Holy Spirit, God, and Jesus) that are one. Does that sound like pure monotheism to you?


They are One. God can't be seen while we are in our flesh bodies as He is spirit. Christ came to earth in flesh and after His crucifixion sent the Holy Spirit to be with us......They are One.





2) Jesus said "Think not that I have come to abolish the law(Torah) and the prophets, I have come not to abolish them but to fulfill them. " - Matthew 5

* The Sabbath on SATURDAY is suppose to be an ETERNAL covenant but Christians do not follow that. ..* Nor do ALL follow Circumcision which is also an ETERNAL covenant ...*Nor do they celebrate Rosh Hashana or Yom Kippur ...*Christmas or Easter was never mentioned in the OLD or NEW Testament, and these holidays have some origins of the Pagans!...
* Also Christians does not eat kosher! ....Jesus lied! He did change those rules!


The Sabbath is still Saturday but Christians have been misled by their leaders....Most worship on the wrong day in ignorance.

No one has to be circumcised any more as he fulfilled all blood ordinances. There is a difference in the laws, statues and ordinances. Today circumcision is of the heart:

Romans 2:29 But he is a jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

You are correct in that most Christians do not celebrate Rosh Hashana or Yom Kippur. For the same reason that they worship on Sunday they also worship on Christmas and Easter and they are pagan days. Again, most do so unknowingly but it is still wrong.

As far as "eating kosher". Those laws are health laws and should still be followed. They aren't sins such as what I term "go to hell sins" but if not followed they can harm our bodies. Again, it is done in ignorance. Some churches teach that those laws were done away with.......They were not!

Jesus DID NOT LIE, nor did He change those rules! He had nothing to do with how man and their religions have completly misled people. However, there is a letter that God wrote to all of His children and they should read it for themself, after all He will ultimately hold them responsible.






3) Also the Old Testament NEVER SAID THE MESSIAH WILL DIE FOR OUR SINS!

"Every man shall die for HIS OWN sin" - Deuteronomy 24:16


The Deuteronomy scripture is to let us know that our father may be a real scoundrel but if we follow God we won't pay for his sin.

You must go to the New Testament to learn why Jesus came to earth.

1John 2:2 And He is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.





also NOWHERE THE THE OLD TESTAMENT STATE THAT THE MESSIAH WILL HE A SECOND RETURN! And Christians claim Jesus will come back!


Of course it did:
Zechariah 9:9 Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: He is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a coal the foal of an ass.

9:10 And I will cut off the chariot from Ephraim, and the horse from Jerusalem, and the battle bow shall be cut off: and He shall speak peace unto the heathen: and His dominion shall be from sea even to sea, and from the river even to the ends of the earth.


9:9 was about His first advent, when He rode on an ass. 9:10 is about His 2nd advent. In the first He came to save, in the second He is on a steed and it is time of war......He comes for revenge.

There is also:
Zechariah 14:4 And His feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof ....(snip)





4) The Christian bible has been changed many times!


True, but unless you understand Hebrew, Greek and Aramaic the best thing you can do is study from the King James and use the Strong's Concordance to see the original meanings of the words.



(5) Jesus broke one of the ten commandments!

"And it was the sabbath day when Jesus made the clay, and opened his eyes." - John 9:14

"Observe the sabbath day and keep it holy, as the Lord your God commanded you."-Deuteronomy 5:12


What wasn't holy about what He did?



5) The Old Testament was MISTRANSLATED TO FIT WITH JESUS!

The Christian idea of a virgin birth is derived from the verse in Isaiah 7:14 describing an "alma" as giving birth. The word "alma" has always meant a young woman, but Christian theologians came centuries later and translated it as "virgin." This accords Jesus' birth with the first century pagan idea of mortals being impregnated by gods.


You are mistaken and shouldn't be so easily led away from God.



6) God is one! Not Three(Jesus, The Holy Ghost, and God!)

"Hear O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is ONE" (Deut. 6:4).


He is One, as explained above.


7) Jesus's name has an origin of the devil!

When you pray to J-Esus, you are really praying to the Devil by his name Esus. Esus is the pagan, Satanic god of the Celtic Druids.

The Torah / Tanakh has been written the same since it was given to the Jews by Moses! Also there was a witness of about 33,000 people who heard God speak saying "This is what I want you to follow"!


You are mistaken about the name of Yeshua. The Torah hasn't changed in all it's years. It is the Word of God.



........Whirlwind



posted on Sep, 26 2007 @ 07:33 PM
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Madnessismysoul

"well... not all of Christianity teaches that[trinitarianism]. there are unitarian Christians."

Yes but that still doesn't change the fact that Jesus is false prophet/messiah(?) according to the Torah AND the Bible!

"well, most Christians in the western world get circumcised anyway. "

But that still doesn't change the fact that Jesus said not to follow [circumcism] an ETERNAL COVENANT!

"well... Judaism has its origin in paganism. yahweh was a mountain god that had a wife... "

You do realised that Yahweh is the name of God given from the OLD TESTAMENT! SO if The Old Testament is false then so is the new! Besides of that, God's name is YHWH not Yahweh! HEBREW IS NOT WRITTEN WITH VOWELS, SO WE DON'T REALLY KNOW THE NAME!

"well... see, you're assuming that "fulfill" means that the rules will continue to be followed. that's a problem. what does it mean for the law to be fulfilled?"

"Fufill" means "Fufilling the PROPHECIES, NOT CHANGING THE TORAH(OLD TESTAMENT)!

"well... yes. but the Hebrew scriptures were changed many times prior to them being written down. they were oral history well before they were written."

Give me some find of proof or even evidence please!

"healing a blind man is breaking a commandment? I'm pretty sure healing the sick would be keeping it holy."

He could have waited. It's not a life-death situation!

"not a belief shared by all Christians, some say 1=3=1 some say 1=1=1 "

Does "1=3..." sound logical to you!? "1=1=1" Sounds logical and that "1" is GOD!

"..no that's just stupid. Jesus is a bastardized version of the Hebrew 'Yeshu' or 'Yeshua' it went through Greek and then Roman, and turned out as 'Jesus' "

I apologize for that...


"so funny that you actually believe that. there isn't evidence to support that at all! Just like there is 0 evidence to support that moses existed or that the Jews were enslaved in Israel. "

Regardless who gave the Torah, It has been written the same for AS LONG AS WE CAN REMEMBER! IT WAS EVEN COMPARED TO AN OLD TORAH THAT WAS WRITTEN A VERY LONG TIME AGO!

===================
whirlwind

"You'll have to provide the verse of Is.45. I don't see what you mean at all."

"I am Y-H-W-H, and there is none else, beside Me there is no G-d; I have girded you, [even] though you have not known Me; That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside Me; I am Y-H-W-H; and there is none else; - Isaiah 45:5-6

*Y-H-W-H means "I am that I am" WITH OUT VOWELS so I am not writing the full name of God (Even thought we have no proof that the name's vowels are "A" and "E" "YAh wEh". This has been translated as "The LORD" in many translations of the bible.

"They are One. God can't be seen while we are in our flesh bodies as He is spirit. Christ came to earth in flesh and after His crucifixion sent the Holy Spirit to be with us......They are One."

Then explain these verses:

":Jesus replied, 'The most important commandment is this: ‘Listen, O Israel! The Lord *our God is the one and only Lord.'"-Mark 12:29

* Jesus said "OUR GOD" NOT "ME, THE LORD JESUS"

Jesus said "our God", which included him to be under GOD Almighty's creation and Divine Authority, and not someone or an entity that is equal to GOD Almighty.

" 'Why do you call me good?' Jesus asked. 'Only God is truly good'. -Mark 10:18"

"You heard that I said to you, ‘I go away, and I will come to you.’ If you loved Me (Jesus), you would have rejoiced, because I go to the Father (GOD); for the Father (GOD) is greater than I (Jesus),'" (John 14:28).

TO BE COUNTINUED



posted on Sep, 26 2007 @ 08:11 PM
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whirlwind

"No one has to be circumcised any more as he fulfilled all blood ordinances. Today circumcision is of the heart:

Romans 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God."

The OLD TESTAMENT states that BEING CIRCUMCISED IN THE FLESH IS AN ETERNAL COVENANT!

"And I will establish My covenant between Me and thee and thy seed after thee throughout their generations for an EVERLASTING COVENANT, to be a G-d unto thee and to thy seed after thee." - GEN 17: 7

"This is My covenant, which ye shall keep, between Me and you and thy seed after thee: every male among you shall be circumcised." - Gen 17:10


"AND THE UNCIRCUMCISED MALE WHO IS NOT CIRCUMCISED IN THE FLESH OF HIS FORESKIN, SHALL BE CUT OFF FROM HIS PEOPLE ; HE HATH BROKEN MY COVENANT." - GEN 17:14

See, GENESIS 17:14 even tells us "CIRCUMCISED IN THE FORESKIN IS THE ETERNAL COVENANT". NOT THE HEART!


"Jesus DID NOT LIE, nor did He change those rules! He had nothing to do with how man and their religions have completely misled people. However, there is a letter that God wrote to all of His children and they should read it for them self, after all He will ultimately hold them responsible."

Jesus did not lie, nor changed the rules, really?

"The grass withers and the flowers fall, but THE WORD OF OUR GOD STANDS FOREVER." - Isaiah 40:8


"Do not add to what I command you and do not subtract from it, but keep the commands of the LORD your God that I give you." - Deuteronomy 4:2


The New Testament is ADDED to the Old Testament!

THESE VERSES WERE WRITTEN IN THE OLD TESTAMENT!

"And it was the sabbath day when Jesus made the clay, and opened his eyes." - John 9:14

contradicts

"Observe the sabbath day and keep it holy, as the Lord your God commanded you."-Deuteronomy 5:12



"For God so loved the world that HE GAVE HIS only SON. Whoever puts his trust in God's Son will not be lost but will have life that lasts forever." - John 3:16

contradicts

"I, yes I, am the Lord, and there is no other Savior." - Isaiah 43:11

And John 3:16 just said Jesus is "God's Son"

" 'For it doesn't go into his heart but into his stomach, and then out of his body.' (In saying this, Jesus declared ALL FOODS 'CLEAN.') " - Mark 7:19

contradicts

"Do not add to what I command you and do not subtract from it, but keep the commands of the LORD your God that I give you." - Deuteronomy 4:2

"Of all the marine animals, you may eat whatever has both fins and scales. You may not, however, eat marine animals that do not have both fins and scales." - Deut. 14: 9-10

"Zechariah 9:9 Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: He is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a coal the foal of an ass.

9:10 And I will cut off the chariot from Ephraim, and the horse from Jerusalem, and the battle bow shall be cut off: and He shall speak peace unto the heathen: and His dominion shall be from sea even to sea, and from the river even to the ends of the earth.

9:9 was about His first advent, when He rode on an ass. 9:10 is about His 2nd advent. In the first He came to save, in the second He is on a steed and it is time of war......He comes for revenge."

I don't understand how that means a second coming

"What wasn't holy about what He did [on the Sabbath]?"

Yes. Healing someone is holy but WORKING (Healing) on the SABBATH is not Observing!

"You are mistaken and shouldn't be so easily led away from God. "

Look up the word "Alma" in a English-Hebrew dictionary. No mistakes here!

"You are mistaken about the name of Yeshua. The TORAH hasn't changed in all it's years. It is the Word of God."

Exactly, so read the Torah instead of the corrupted Christian Bible



posted on Sep, 26 2007 @ 08:58 PM
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Originally posted by arpgme
1) Isaiah 45 and Zafanai 3 shows that when the messiah arrives the world will unite under pure monotheism! No time in Jesus's life time did this happen.


Very true, and yet we also read...


Isaiah 53

He was despised and rejected by men

He was oppressed and afflicted

he was cut off from the land of the living

He was assigned a grave with the wicked


You're falling into the same mistake that the Jews fell into. They read the scriptures, and yet despite all the reading and studying, they failed to understand what they read. The Torah clearly outlines two visits from the Messiah. In one he is unjustly killed, and in the other he is crowned king over all.

You don't have to piece this information tothether either. Both instances are side-by-side numerous times. Just look at the end of Isaiah 53. We read that he was despised, killed and buried and yet we see...


I will give him a portion among the great,
and he will divide the spoils with the strong,
because he poured out his life unto death

God will make him great after his death. It doesn't get any more clear than this.



posted on Sep, 26 2007 @ 10:43 PM
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Isaiah tells us that the Servant will be universally despised and rejected

"He was despised, and forsaken of men, a man of pains, and acquainted with disease, and as one from whom men hide their face: he was despised, and we esteemed him not." - Isaiah 53:3

While this has certainly been true for the Jewish people, the Christian Bible describes Jesus as immensely popular. (Luke 2:52, 4:14-15, Mark 3:8-9, etc.).

"And Jesus grew in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and men." -Luke 2:52

The future course of history only saw a rise in Jesus’ stock. Isaiah’s Servant is to be rewarded with long life and many children.

"Yet it pleased Y-H-W-H to crush him by disease; to see if his soul would offer itself in restitution, that he might see his seed, prolong his days, and that the purpose of Y-H-W-H might prosper by his hand:" - Isaiah 53:10

*Y-H-W-H is often translated as "The Lord" in many translations.

If Jesus was The Messiah, he would have lived long and had children. Isaiah 53:10

The missionary’s greatest difficulty is posed by Isaiah’s declaration that the suffering Servant is actually a group of people, and not an individual

"for the transgression of my people to whom the stroke was due."-Isaiah 53:8

We must understand that missionaries employ Isaiah 53 not only to validate their claim that Jesus is the Messiah.

They rely on this passage to delineate the essential mission of the Messiah:

to die as a vicarious sacrifice in order to atone for the sins of the world.

This idea has three critical flaws.

1 . The traditional Jewish concept of the Messiah as the Davidic king who will reign over a redeemed world of universal peace and universal knowledge of G-d is substantiated by dozens of passages throughout the Bible. The Christian messianic concept hangs entirely upon our controversial passage in Isaiah, and has no external corroboration.

2. The Christian messianic notion is based upon a subtle mistranslation. Isaiah 53:5 does not say, "He was wounded for our transgressions, crushed for our iniquities", which could convey a vicarious suffering. Rather, the text properly translated reads, "He was wounded from our transgressions, crushed from our iniquities." This certainly does not convey that the Servant suffered to atone for the sins of others, but rather that the Servant suffered as a result of the sinfulness of others. This distinction is crucial!

3. Christian belief maintains that not only does the Messiah come to atone for sin, but also, the only way for humans to atone for sin is through belief in the Messiah’s vicarious sacrifice on their behalf. This idea directly contradicts Biblical teaching on many fronts. Here are just some of them:

The Bible rejects the concept of an innocent person dying in place of a guilty one

(Exodus 32:32-33, Deuteronomy 24:16, Ezekiel 18:1-4)

Biblical sacrifices, in and of themselves, are never sufficient to atone for our sins

(Proverbs 15:8, Isaiah 1:11-16, Amos 5:22-24, Micah 6:6-8)

The Bible strongly prohibits human sacrifice

(Genesis 22:10-13, Leviticus 18:21, Deuteronomy 18:10)

Since G-d promises forgiveness to all who sincerely repent of their sins and return to Him, there is no need for the Messiah to atone for us (II Chronicles 7:14, Ezekiel chapters 18 and 33, Jeremiah 36:3, Isaiah 55:6-7, Jonah 3:6-10, Daniel 4:27, Hoseah 14:1-3, Proverbs 16:6)

Not only does Isaiah 53 never mention the need to believe in the suffering of G-d’s Servant, but there isn’t even one reference in the entire Bible to believing in the Messiah as one’s personal saviour from sin.

THERE IS ONLY ONE SAVIOUR AND THAT IS GOD!

"I, yes I, am the Lord, and there is no other Savior." - Isaiah 43:11



posted on Sep, 26 2007 @ 11:17 PM
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You seem to not be well versed, despite your quotations, because a messiah in Jewish culture is a military leader, not a promoter of peace (which Jesus was). So, I'm not taking your post too seriously. If you would like to read more about Christianity and Judaism, please do so before making outlandish statements that may or may not be true. Otherwise you just feed into the human virus of ignorance. Also, before you get to work studying the Bible and not using the King James edition, you're going to need to learn Hebrew and Greek. Good luck.

Also, what is a religion if it doesn't agree with another religion? I don't consider myself Christian, but if what you say is true, then Judaism, Islam and Christianity along with every religion in the world is not a religion... because while many agree on certain aspects of humanity, many disagree on traditions and events. So to me your logic is pretty flawed; besides I already dealt a large blow to your case by telling you that you don't understand Jewish culture. It's the very ideas you display here that cause religious wars, to claim one religion is better than another is ignorant and narrow minded.

[edit on 26-9-2007 by yellowcard]



posted on Sep, 27 2007 @ 06:30 AM
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Esus was not Satanic. In the first place, the Druids had no conception of Satan and didn't have anything like Satan in their pantheon.
In the second place, Esus was a god of oak trees; oak trees were very sacred to the Druids. So why would they have a Satanic god that represented something sacred to them, like trees?

Esus can be compared to Cernunnos, (the Horned One) an old Celtic god of the forest and trees. Later on, the Christians came up with Satan and arbitrarily stated that Cernunnos was Satan, with nothing to connect the two at all. It was the Christians who conceived of Satan, not any Pagan group.

Google "Druid god Esus" - you will get lots of websites saying that he is a tree god and nothing more.



posted on Sep, 27 2007 @ 06:36 AM
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Originally posted by arpgme
Isaiah tells us that the Servant will be universally despised and rejected

Not just rejected, killed, dead, buried. Read it again. This is not a mistranslation. Even the original Hebrew makes it clear. (See the links below)


Isa 53:8 - He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living

Isa 53:9 - And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death

Isa 53:10 - Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put [him] to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin


Reading the passages we see that he was taken from prision and killed. You'll have a hard time proving anything otherwise because it's plainly stated here.



posted on Sep, 27 2007 @ 07:47 AM
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Yes but that still doesn't change the fact that Jesus is false prophet/messiah(?) according to the Torah AND the Bible!


Jesus is The Messiah and The Son of God according to the Torah and the Bible. Take the first prophecy in the Bible:

Gen.3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her Seed; It shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise His heel

His heels were nailed to the cross. The second part of that prophesy will come true too.





But that still doesn't change the fact that Jesus said not to follow [circumcism] an ETERNAL COVENANT!


Jesus said that??? Jesus became that. He became ALL BLOOD SACRIFICES AND ORDINANCES.



You do realised that Yahweh is the name of God given from the OLD TESTAMENT! SO if The Old Testament is false then so is the new! Besides of that, God's name is YHWH not Yahweh! HEBREW IS NOT WRITTEN WITH VOWELS, SO WE DON'T REALLY KNOW THE NAME!


His name is YHVH, you are correct. I don't see a problem in adding vowels so the name can be pronounced however I do see a problem in someone being so admant about YHVH being His name and then spelling it with a W instead of V.



"healing a blind man is breaking a commandment? I'm pretty sure healing the sick would be keeping it holy."

He could have waited. It's not a life-death situation!


He teaches with everything He does, as He was teaching by purposely healing on that day and we should understand the lesson:


Mark 2:27And He said unto them, "The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:

Jesus is our rest. Please read Hebrews 4 for more on this subejct. As far as healing on the Sabbath:

Matthew 12:10 And, behold, there was a man which had his hand withered. And they asked Him, saying, "Is it lawful to heal on the sabbath days?" that they might accuse Him.
Are you accusing Him as they were?

11. And he said unto them, "What man shall there be among you, that shall have one sheep, and if it fall into a pit on the sabbath day, will he not lay hold on it, and lift it out?

12.How much then is a man better than a sheep? Wherefore it is lawful to do well on the sabbath days."




===================

Whirlwind - "You'll have to provide the verse of Is.45. I don't see what you mean at all."

"I am Y-H-W-H, and there is none else, beside Me there is no G-d; I have girded you, [even] though you have not known Me; That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside Me; I am Y-H-W-H; and there is none else; - Isaiah 45:5-6

*Y-H-W-H means "I am that I am" WITH OUT VOWELS so I am not writing the full name of God (Even thought we have no proof that the name's vowels are "A" and "E" "YAh wEh". This has been translated as "The LORD" in many translations of the bible.


It is YhVh, not YhWh. I stand by my previous statement (below)

"They are One. God can't be seen while we are in our flesh bodies as He is spirit. Christ came to earth in flesh and after His crucifixion sent the Holy Spirit to be with us......They are One."


Then explain these verses:

":Jesus replied, 'The most important commandment is this: ‘Listen, O Israel! The Lord *our God is the one and only Lord.'"-Mark 12:29


He is the One and only Lord. They are One.


* Jesus said "OUR GOD" NOT "ME, THE LORD JESUS"

Jesus said "our God", which included him to be under GOD Almighty's creation and Divine Authority, and not someone or an entity that is equal to GOD Almighty.


He was under that creation and authority when He was in the flesh body.


" 'Why do you call me good?' Jesus asked. 'Only God is truly good'. -Mark 10:18"


That scripture in the 1611 edition reads: there is "no man" good but one, that is, God.
So...to me, it appears He is saying that the Father is the one we worship but as He states in other places, you must believe in Him (Christ) to be with the Father. He teaches that in telling us how to pray. We are to pray to the Father but in the name of Christ.




"You heard that I said to you, ‘I go away, and I will come to you.’ If you loved Me (Jesus), you would have rejoiced, because I go to the Father (GOD); for the Father (GOD) is greater than I (Jesus),'" (John 14:28).


That chapter is about the Godhead - The Father, Son and Holy Spirit. In that scripture the word "greater" doesn't mean that He was inferior to His essential being but as to His office, (Christ, the Son), as sent by the Father.



.........Whirlwind



posted on Sep, 27 2007 @ 08:11 AM
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Originally posted by whirlwind


The Sabbath is still Saturday but Christians have been misled by their leaders....Most worship on the wrong day in ignorance.


I have to disagree with this statement. It is not because of ignorance that Christians revere Sunday, but is instead due to Christian theology.

According to the orthodox canon, Christ fulfilled the Sabbath law by resting in the tomb on the Sabbath Day. There, to Christians, Christ himself is the Sabbath. Thus he spoke, "Come unto me, all ye who are weary, and I will give you rest".

Christians observe the first day of the week because this was the day of the resurrection, a mystical "Eighth Day" wherein all things are made new. It has nothing to do with the Jewish Sabbath laws of the Old Dispensation.



posted on Sep, 27 2007 @ 08:15 AM
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Originally posted by whirlwind


It is YhVh, not YhWh.


Actually, YHWH is also correct, as are IHVH and IHWH. The Hebrew Letter Yod can be transliterated as both I and Y, and the Letter Vau is both V and W.



posted on Sep, 27 2007 @ 08:21 AM
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Thanks, those who addressed the original poster towards the claims made. There's not a whole lot I need to add. In addition to what everyone has already said, the Bible itself addresses most of these concerns (which I believe was mentioned too). Finally, most (if not all) points raised here were already discussed on other threads. Recycling is good for the environment, but rough on hard-drive space I'm sure.

A shout out to Masonic Light, good to see you around again. We've had many good argumen...er...discussions and always looking forward to more.


Originally posted by forestlady
Later on, the Christians came up with Satan and arbitrarily stated that Cernunnos was Satan, with nothing to connect the two at all.


Appreciate the input you'd given regarding this. If I may propose, I think the reason for these connections was the northern spread of Catholicism. The idea was to integrate Christian ideas/concepts with one more indigenous to the area. Although many claimed this was beneficial in educating others about the Christian faith, I think you and I would agree it was a mistake. They're not nor should be comparable, in my view because it caused some confusion such as what the original poster is experiencing.

[edit on 27-9-2007 by saint4God]

[edit on 27-9-2007 by saint4God]



posted on Sep, 27 2007 @ 10:44 AM
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reply to post by Masonic Light
 




Originally posted by whirlwind
The Sabbath is still Saturday but Christians have been misled by their leaders....Most worship on the wrong day in ignorance.


I have to disagree with this statement. It is not because of ignorance that Christians revere Sunday, but is instead due to Christian theology.

According to the orthodox canon, Christ fulfilled the Sabbath law by resting in the tomb on the Sabbath Day. There, to Christians, Christ himself is the Sabbath. Thus he spoke, "Come unto me, all ye who are weary, and I will give you rest".

Christians observe the first day of the week because this was the day of the resurrection, a mystical "Eighth Day" wherein all things are made new. It has nothing to do with the Jewish Sabbath laws of the Old Dispensation.



We are both correct about the Sabbath. It was because of Christian theology, (and that part was taken from pagan religions), but it is because of ignorance that Christians continue to accept that day as God's Sabbath. They haven't been taught the truth or those that have, believe their church doctrine. A shame isn't it? The same thing applies to Christmas and easter.

Christ did become our Sabbath, our Passover, our rest but we should continue to worship on the correct day. The "eighth day" is a man made tradition - it is not of God.


...........Whirlwind



posted on Sep, 27 2007 @ 10:52 AM
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reply to post by Masonic Light
 






Originally posted by whirlwind


It is YhVh, not YhWh.



Actually, YHWH is also correct, as are IHVH and IHWH. The Hebrew Letter Yod can be transliterated as both I and Y, and the Letter Vau is both V and W.



If I am in error I apologize - I'm not a Hebrew scholar. I do know that the Sacred Name is locked into an acrostic in Esther and it is YHVH.


........Whirlwind



posted on Sep, 27 2007 @ 11:39 AM
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reply to post by arpgme
 


whirlwind

"No one has to be circumcised any more as he fulfilled all blood ordinances. Today circumcision is of the heart:

Romans 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God."

The OLD TESTAMENT states that BEING CIRCUMCISED IN THE FLESH IS AN ETERNAL COVENANT!


He BECAME all blood ordinances. He fulfilled that covenant. Today it is circumcision of the heart and is for man and woman. We no longer sacrifice animals either.....he became those sacrifices.



"Jesus DID NOT LIE, nor did He change those rules! He had nothing to do with how man and their religions have completely misled people. However, there is a letter that God wrote to all of His children and they should read it for them self, after all He will ultimately hold them responsible."

Jesus did not lie, nor changed the rules, really?

"The grass withers and the flowers fall, but THE WORD OF OUR GOD STANDS FOREVER." - Isaiah 40:8


It does stand forever. He is the Word. He did not lie.



"Do not add to what I command you and do not subtract from it, but keep the commands of the LORD your God that I give you." - Deuteronomy 4:2


The New Testament is ADDED to the Old Testament!


Yes it was. It didn't change the Old Testament nor did it add to what He commanded or subtract from it. The Old Testament was a shadow of what was and is to come. Take Gen. 3:15 for example, the first prophecy in the Bible:

And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her Seed; It shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise His heel."

It was partially fulfilled when His heels were nailed to the cross and soon the head of Satan shall be crushed.


THESE VERSES WERE WRITTEN IN THE OLD TESTAMENT!

"And it was the sabbath day when Jesus made the clay, and opened his eyes." - John 9:14

contradicts

"Observe the sabbath day and keep it holy, as the Lord your God commanded you."-Deuteronomy 5:12


It does not contradict. It does explain the true meaning. When Christ opened the man's eyes on the Sabbath it wasn't by accident. He teaches in all that He does and we, as His children, should take time to learn the lesson:

Matthew 12:10 And behold, there was a man which had his hand withered. And they asked Him, saying, "Is it lawful to heal on the sabbath days?" that they might accuse Him.
Is that what you are doing?

11.And He said unto them, "What man shall there be among you, that shall have one sheep, and if it fall into a pit on the Sabbath day, will he not lay hold on it, and lift it out?

12.How much then is a man better than a sheep? Wherefore it is lawful to do well on the sabbath days."


He "did well" on that day as we should.



"For God so loved the world that HE GAVE HIS only SON. Whoever puts his trust in God's Son will not be lost but will have life that lasts forever." - John 3:16

contradicts

"I, yes I, am the Lord, and there is no other Savior." - Isaiah 43:11

And John 3:16 just said Jesus is "God's Son


Jesus, Yeshua means, Saviour of God. They are one. Christ tells us that the only way to the Father is through Him. He also tells us to pray to the Father only but pray in His (Christ) name.


" 'For it doesn't go into his heart but into his stomach, and then out of his body.' (In saying this, Jesus declared ALL FOODS 'CLEAN.') " - Mark 7:19

contradicts

"Do not add to what I command you and do not subtract from it, but keep the commands of the LORD your God that I give you." - Deuteronomy 4:2

"Of all the marine animals, you may eat whatever has both fins and scales. You may not, however, eat marine animals that do not have both fins and scales." - Deut. 14: 9-10


Jesus did NOT declare all foods clean in that scripture. Usually, when someone is trying to prove that all foods are clean they quote Acts 11:5-10. If they read with understanding they would see that the scripture was God teaching that no one should consider a gentile as unclean. They should also note that Peter did not eat the unclean food. It is further taught in:

1 Timothy 4:3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.

They read that and think it is fine to eat anything when it states "created to be received" and unclean foods were not created for that purpose.



9:9 was about His first advent, when He rode on an ass. 9:10 is about His 2nd advent. In the first He came to save, in the second He is on a steed and it is time of war......He comes for revenge."

I don't understand how that means a second coming


The things stated in vs. 10 were not accomplished in His first advent but will be in His second.


"You are mistaken and shouldn't be so easily led away from God. "

Look up the word "Alma" in a English-Hebrew dictionary. No mistakes here!


The word "virgin" in Is. 7:14:
The Heb. for virgin (in our technical sense) is "bethulah' and occurs fifty times. It's first occurance is Gen. 24:16, where compared with v.43, it shows that while every Bethulah is indeed an Almah, yet not every Almah is a Bethulah. The propecy does not lose its Messianic character, for Mary, in whom it was fulfilled, is designated by the same holy inspiring Spirit as "parthenos" (not gune). As a sign to Ahaz this damsel was an almah. As a sign, when the prophecy was fulfilled (or filled full), it was Mary, the parthenos or virgin. Companion Bible -E.W.Bullinger

So....As in Genesis there is a difference in man vs. Adam as noted by the particle (eth ha Adam), there is also a difference in almah and ha-almah.


"You are mistaken about the name of Yeshua. The TORAH hasn't changed in all it's years. It is the Word of God."

Exactly, so read the Torah instead of the corrupted Christian Bible



The Torah does not contain the gospels. I study from the Companion Bible which is a King James but has corrections by the scholar Bullinger. That way, I get the best of both worlds.

Whirlwind



posted on Sep, 27 2007 @ 12:18 PM
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Originally posted by whirlwind

Christ did become our Sabbath, our Passover, our rest but we should continue to worship on the correct day. The "eighth day" is a man made tradition - it is not of God.



In his Epistle to the Colossians, the Apostle Paul wrote:

"Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:"

Therefore, there does not seem to be a technically "correct" day, as every day is appropriate to worship the Almighty, and give thanks to Him for our many blessings. However, the Acts of Apostles states that on the Jewish Sabbath, the Apostles taught in the synagogues, while they gathered together amongst themselves to worship on the first day of the week. Therefore, the tradition of the Christian community to gather on Sunday is an original one, handed down by the first Apostles.

I will also mention here that I am not an "orthodox" Christian, i.e., one coming from the Roman Catholic-Eastern Orthodox-Protestant line of succession. I am a Gnostic Christian, which I contend to be primitive Christianity in its purity. Nevertheless, even as a proud heretic, I must agree with the "orthodox" on the Sunday tradition, although according to Paul, it does not seem to be very important.



posted on Sep, 27 2007 @ 03:40 PM
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Using strictly the Simple Reading (peshat in Hebrew) of Genesis 3:15, the following conclusions may be drawn:



Y The woman (Eve) is the female progenitor of mankind. [The Jewish Sages accept the notion that homo-sapiens existed before Adam & Eve, but that these were not endowed with the soul that G-d breathed into Adam’s nostrils which, in a sense, renders them as being sub-humans, or of the animal kingdom].



Y The enmity between snake and man, from mankind’s perspective, stems from the fact that in general, snakes are pests, even dangerous pests. From a snake’s perspective, it is an animal without the ability to reason and, thus, it acts on natural instincts – it must eat to survive, and its main job is to look for sustenance while protecting itself from predators.



Y The respective references to seed, i.e., offspring, point to mankind relative to Eve, and the family of snakes relative to the serpent.



This is not a messianic prophecy by any stretch of the imagination. Nothing in this verse refers explicitly to the Messiah other than in the generic sense, that the Messiah will be a human being who descended from Adam and Eve, i.e., someone of mankind. Other than that, this verse describes the general notion that people will have a dislike for snakes and hit them in the head, while snakes will bite people in their feet.



posted on Sep, 27 2007 @ 06:31 PM
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ARPGME


Using strictly the Simple Reading (peshat in Hebrew) of Genesis 3:15, the following conclusions may be drawn:


Y The woman (Eve) is the female progenitor of mankind. [The Jewish Sages accept the notion that homo-sapiens existed before Adam & Eve, but that these were not endowed with the soul that G-d breathed into Adam’s nostrils which, in a sense, renders them as being sub-humans, or of the animal kingdom].



There was mankind before Adam and Eve but they were not "sub-human" or animal. They were the 6th day creation:

Gen.1:26 And God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, after Our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air......(snip)

27.So God created man in His own image, in the image of God created He him; male and female created he them.

31.And God saw every thing that He had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.


So...He created mankind, all the races on the 6th day, and Adam and Eve sometime on the 8th day.

Eve is the proginitor of the Adamic race, not all of mankind. She is the "mother of all living" because Christ came through her and those that believe in Him have eternal life.





Y The enmity between snake and man, from mankind’s perspective, stems from the fact that in general, snakes are pests, even dangerous pests. From a snake’s perspective, it is an animal without the ability to reason and, thus, it acts on natural instincts – it must eat to survive, and its main job is to look for sustenance while protecting itself from predators.


Y The respective references to seed, i.e., offspring, point to mankind relative to Eve, and the family of snakes relative to the serpent.



The "serpent" in the garden was not a talking, wise, snake.

The Hebrew word rendered "serpent" in Gen.3:1 is Nachash (from the root Nachash, to shine), and means a shining one. The Nachash, or serpent, who beguiled Eve (2 Cor.11:3) is spoken of as "an angel of light" in vs.14. This was not a snake but a glorious shining being, apparently an angel.............It is remarkable that the verb nachash always means to enchant, fascinate, bewitch; or of one having and using occult knowledge....E.W. Bullinger - Companion Bible

What angel could it have been?

Rev.12:9. And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.



This is not a messianic prophecy by any stretch of the imagination. Nothing in this verse refers explicitly to the Messiah other than in the generic sense, that the Messiah will be a human being who descended from Adam and Eve, i.e., someone of mankind. Other than that, this verse describes the general notion that people will have a dislike for snakes and hit them in the head, while snakes will bite people in their feet.



It's much deeper than that. The event in the garden set up the controversy between good and evil that will be carried out until the end of days.


...........Whirlwind





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