Ahmadinejad Watch: NYC 2007

reply to post by spoke

As for what you mentioned being in Palestinians' shoes, I would agree that I would be PO'ed at Israel, but like I said before, it doesn't make it right for them to kill the civilians. If they were really that mad, wouldn't they be protesting to the U.N., the council that created Israel? That's would I would try to do, to get influence in the U.N. and help propose a new method that would benefit both sides.

Originally posted by Dan5647
If they were really that mad, wouldn't they be protesting to the U.N., the council that created Israel? That's would I would try to do, to get influence in the U.N. and help propose a new method that would benefit both sides.

Every proposal against Israel in the UN gets vetoed.

This may be a bit long but here is a brief history lesson.

Between about 1800 and 1500 B.C., it is thought that a Semitic people called Hebrews (hapiru) left Mesopotamia and settled in Canaan.

The Assyrians conquered Israel in 722 or 721 B.C. The Babylonians conquered Judah around 586 B.C

About 50 years later, the Persian king Cyrus conquered Babylonia.

Alexander the Great then conquered the Persian Empire. After Alexander's death in 323 B.C.

his generals divided the empire. One of these generals, Seleucus, founded a dynasty that gained control of much of Palestine about 200 B.C

In 167 B.C., the Jews revolted under the leadership of the Maccabeans and either drove the Seleucids out of Palestine or at least established a large degree of autonomy, forming a kingdom with its capital in Jerusalem.

About 61 B.C., Roman troops under Pompei invaded Judea and sacked Jerusalem in support of King Herod.

Roman rulers put down Jewish revolts in about A.D. 70 and A.D. 132. In A.D. 135, the Romans drove the Jews out of Jerusalem, following the failed Bar Kochba revolt. The Romans named the area Palaestina, at about this time.

Palestine was governed by the Roman Empire until the fourth century A.D. (300's) and then by the Byzantine Empire.

During the seventh century (A.D. 600's), Muslim Arab armies moved north from Arabia to conquer most of the Middle East, including Palestine. Jerusalem was conquered about 638 by the Caliph Umar (Omar) who gave his protection to its inhabitants. Muslim powers controlled the region until the early 1900's. The rulers allowed Christians and Jews to keep their religions.

The Seljuk Turks conquered Jerusalem in 1071, but their rule in Palestine lasted less than 30 years

The Fatimids took advantage of the Seljuk struggles with the Christian crusaders. They made an alliance with the crusaders in 1098 and captured Jerusalem, Jaffa and other parts of Palestine.

The Crusaders, however, broke the alliance and invaded Palestine about a year later. They captured Jaffa and Jerusalem in 1099, slaughtered many Jewish and Muslim defenders and forbade Jews to live in Jerusalem. They held the city until 1187.

The crusaders left Palestine for good when the Muslims captured Acre in 1291.

In the mid-1200's, Mamelukes, originally soldier-slaves of the Arabs based in Egypt, established an empire that in time included the area of Palestine. Arab-speaking Muslims made up most of the population of the area once called Palestine.

Beginning in the late 1300's, Jews from Spain and other Mediterranean lands settled in Jerusalem and other parts of the land.

The Ottoman Empire defeated the Mamelukes in 1517, and Palestine became part of the Ottoman Empire.

The Turkish Sultan invited Jews fleeing the Spanish Catholic inquisition to settle in the Turkish empire, including several cities in Palestine.

In 1798, Napoleon entered the land. The war with Napoleon and subsequent misadministration by Egyptian and Ottoman rulers, reduced the population of Palestine. Arabs and Jews fled to safer and more prosperous lands. (Revolts by Palestinian Arabs against Egyptian and Ottoman rule at this time may have helped to catalyze Palestinian national feeling.)


Both Arab and Jewish population increased. By 1880, about 24,000 Jews were living in Palestine, out of a population of about 400,000. At about that time, the Ottoman government imposed severe restrictions on Jewish immigration and land purchase, and also began actively soliciting inviting Muslims from other parts of the Ottoman empire to settle in Palestine, including Circassians and Bosnians. The restrictions were evaded in various ways by Jews seeking to colonize Palestine, chiefly by bribery.

In the nineteenth century new social currents animated Jewish life. The emancipation of European Jews, signaled by the French revolution, brought Jews out of the Ghetto and into the modern world, exposing them to modern ideas.

Beginning in the late 1800's, oppression of Jews in Eastern Europe stimulated emigration of Jews to Palestine.

The Zionist movement became a formal organization in 1897

The Zionists wished to establish a "Jewish Homeland" in Palestine under Turkish or German rule.

The Zionists established farm communities in Palestine at Petah Tikva, Zichron Jacob, Rishon Letzion and elsewhere. Later they established the new city of Tel Aviv, north of Jaffa. At the same time, Palestine's Arab population grew rapidly. By 1914, the total population of Palestine stood at about 700,000. About 615,000 were Arabs, and 85,000 to 100,000 were Jews.

During World War I (1914-1918), the Ottoman Empire joined Germany and Austria-Hungary against the Allies. An Ottoman military government ruled Palestine. The war was hard on both Jewish and Arab populations however, it was more difficult for the Jews

A large number of Jews were Russian nationals. They had been able to enter Palestine as Russian nationals because of the concessions Turkey had granted to Russian citizens, and they had used this method to overcome restrictions on immigration. They had also maintained Russian citizenship to avoid being drafted into the Turkish army. Therefore, a large number of Jews were forced to flee Palestine during the war.

Britain and France planned to divide the Ottoman holdings in the Middle East among themselves after the war. The Sykes-Picot Agreement of 1916 called for part of Palestine to be under British rule, part to be placed under a joint Allied government, and for Syria and Lebanon to be given to the France.

In 1916, Arabs led by T.E. Lawrence and backed by Sharif Husayn revolted against the Ottomans in the belief that Britain would help establish Arab independence in the Middle East.

The United States and other countries pressed for Arab self-determination. The Arabs, and many in the British government including Lawrence, believed that the Arabs had been short-changed by the British promise to give Syria to the French, and likewise by the promise of Palestine as a Jewish homeland. The Arabs claimed that Palestine was included in the area promised to them, but the British denied this.

In November 1917, before Britain had conquered Jerusalem and the area to be known as Palestine, Britain issued the Balfour Declaration. The declaration stated Britain's support for the creation of a Jewish national home in Palestine, without violating the civil and religious rights of the existing non-Jewish communities

After the war, the League of Nations divided much of the Ottoman Empire into mandated territories. The British and French saw the Mandates as instruments of imperial ambitions.

US President Wilson insisted that the mandates must foster eventual independence. The British were anxious to keep Palestine away from the French, and decided to ask for a mandate that would implement the Jewish national home of the Balfour declaration, a project that would be supported by the Americans. The Arabs opposed the idea of a Jewish national home, considering that the areas now called Palestine were their land. The Arabs felt they were in danger of dispossession by the Zionists, and did not relish living under Jewish rule.

By this time, Zionists had recognized the inevitability of conflict with the Palestinian and other Arabs. The Zionists and others presented their case to the Paris Peace conference. Ultimately, the British plan was adopted. The main issues taken into account were division of rights between Britain and France, rather than the views of the inhabitants.

In 1920, Britain received a provisional mandate over Palestine, which would extend west and east of the River Jordan. The area of the mandate given to Britain at the San Remo conference was much larger than historic Palestine as envisaged by the Zionists, who had sought an eastern border to the West of Amman. The mandate, based on the Balfour declaration, was formalized in 1922. The mandate provided for an agency, later called "The Jewish Agency for Palestine," that would represent Jewish interests in Palestine to the British and to promote Jewish immigration. A Jewish agency was created only in 1929.

The area granted to the mandate was much larger than the area sought by the Zionists. It is possible, that as Churchill suggested in 1922, the British never intended that all of this area would become a Jewish national home. On the other hand, some believe that Britain had no special plans for Transjordan initially.

In 1921 Abdullah, the son of King Husayn of the Hijaz, marched toward Transjordan with 2,000 soldiers. Two days later, Abdullah marched north and by March 1921, he occupied the entire country.

In 1922, the British declared that the boundary of Palestine would be limited to the area west of the river. The area east of the river, called Transjordan (now Jordan), was made a separate British mandate and eventually given independence (See map at right) . A part of the Zionist movement felt betrayed at losing a large area of what they termed "historic Palestine" to Transjordan, and split off to form the "Revisionist" movement, headed by Benjamin Vladimir (Ze'ev) Jabotinsky.


In the spring of 1920, spring of 1921 and summer of 1929, Arab nationalists opposed to the Balfour declaration, the mandate and the Jewish National Home, instigated riots and pogroms against Jews in Jerusalem, Hebron, Jaffa and Haifa. The violence led to the formation of the Haganah Jewish self-defense organization in 1920. The riots of 1920 and 1921 reflected opposition to the Balfour declaration and fears that the Arabs of Palestine would be dispossessed, and were probably attempts to show the British that Palestine as a Jewish National home would be ungovernable.

Jewish immigration swelled in the 1930s, driven by persecution in Eastern Europe, even before the rise of Nazism. Large numbers of Jews began to come from Poland owing to discriminatory laws and harsh economic conditions.

In 1936 widespread rioting, later known as the Arab Revolt or Great Uprising, broke out. The revolt was kindled when British forces killed Izz al din El Qassam in a gun battle. Izz al Din El Qassam was a Syrian preacher who had emigrated to Palestine and was agitating against the British and the Jews.

The Peel commission of 1937 recommended partitioning Palestine into a small Jewish state and a large Arab one. The commission's recommendations also included voluntary transfer of Arabs and Jews to separate the populations. The Jewish leadership considered the plan but the Palestinian and Arab leadership, including King Saud of Saudi Arabia , rejected partition and demanded that the British curtail Jewish immigration. Saud said that if the British failed to follow Arab wishes in Palestine, the Arabs would turn against them and side with their enemies. He said that Arabs did not understand the "strange attitude of your British Government, and the still more strange hypnotic influence which the Jews, a race accursed by God according to His Holy Book, and destined to final destruction and eternal damnation hereafter, appear to wield over them and the English people generally."

In response to the riots, the British began limiting immigration and the 1939 White Paper decreed that 15,000 Jews would be allowed to enter Palestine each year for five years. Thereafter, immigration would be subject to Arab approval. At the same time, the British took drastic and often cruel steps to curtail the riots. Husseini fled to Iraq, where he was involved in an Axis-supported coup against the British and then to Nazi Germany, where he subsequently broadcast for the Axis powers, was active in curtailing Jewish immigration from neutral countries and organized SS death squads in Yugoslavia.

During World War II (1939-1945), many Palestinian Arabs and Jews joined the Allied forces. though some Palestinian and Arab leaders were sympathetic to the Nazi cause. There were growing suspicions that the Nazis were systematically exterminating the Jews of Europe. These suspicions were later confirmed, and the extermination of European Jews came to be known as the Holocaust. The continued threat of extermination also created great pressure for immigration to Palestine, but the gates of Palestine were closed by the British White Paper. In 1941 the British freed Jewish Haganah underground leaders in a general amnesty, and they joined the British in fighting the Germans.

The Jews of Palestine responded to the White Paper and the Holocaust by organizing illegal immigration to Palestine from occupied Europe, through the "Institution for Illegal Immigration" (Hamossad L'aliya Beth). Illegal immigration (Aliya Bet) was organized by the Jewish Agency between 1939 and 1942, and again in 1945 and 1948.

Despite the desperate need to find a haven for refugees, the doors of Palestine remained shut to Jewish immigration. The Zionist leadership met in the Biltmore Hotel in New York City in 1942 and declared that it supported the establishment of Palestine as a Jewish Commonwealth. This was not simply a return to the Balfour declaration repudiated by the British White Paper, but rather a restatement of Zionist aims that went beyond the Balfour declaration, and a determination that the British were in principle, an enemy to be fought, rather than an ally.


On November 6, members of the Jewish Lehi underground Eliyahu Hakim and Eliyahu Bet Zuri assassinated Lord Moyne in Cairo. Moyne, a known anti-Zionist, was Minister of State for the Middle East and in charge of carrying out the terms of the 1939 White Paper - preventing Jewish immigration to Palestine by force. He was also a personal friend of Winston Churchill. The assassination did not change British policy, but it turned Winston Churchill against the Zionists. Hakim and Bet Zuri were caught and were hanged by the British in 1945.

In the summer of 1945, the Labor party came to power in Great Britain. They had promised that they would reverse the British White Paper and would support a Jewish state in Palestine. However, they presently reneged on their promise, and continued and redoubled efforts to stop Jewish immigration. The US and other countries brought pressure to bear on the British to allow immigration. An Anglo-American Committee of Inquiry recommended allowing 100,000 Jews to immigrate immediately to Palestine. The Arabs brought pressure on the British to block such immigration. The British found Palestine to be ungovernable and returned the mandate to the United Nations, successor to the League of Nations.

The United Nations Special Commission on Palestine (UNSCOP) recommended that Palestine be divided into an Arab state and a Jewish state. The commission called for Jerusalem to be put under international administration The UN General Assembly adopted this plan on Nov. 29, 1947 as UN Resolution (GA 181), owing to support of both the US and the Soviet Union, and in particular, the personal support of US President Harry S. Truman. Many factors contributed to Truman's decision to support partition, including domestic politics and intense Zionist lobbying, no doubt.

The Jews accepted the UN decision, but the Arabs rejected it. It soon became evident that the scheme could not work. Mutual antagonism would make it impossible for either community to tolerate the other. The UN was unwilling and unable to force implementation of the internationalization of Jerusalem. The Arab League, at the instigation of Haj Amin Al-Husseini, declared a war to rid Palestine of the Jews. In fact however, the Arab countries each had separate agendas. Abdullah, king of Jordan, had an informal and secret agreement with Israel, negotiated with Golda Meir, to annex the portions of Palestine allocated to the Palestinian state in the West Bank, and prevent formation of a Palestinian state. Syria wanted to annex the northern part of Palestine, including Jewish and Arab areas.

The War of Independence or 1948 War is divided into the pre-independence period, and the post-independence period. Clashes between Israeli underground groups and Arab irregulars began almost as soon as the UN passed the partition resolution. During this time, Arab countries did not invade, though the Jordan legion did assist the in the attack against Gush Etzion, a small block of settlements in the territory allocated to the Palestinian state, south of Jerusalem.

And the rest is as they say....History

So pick a side if you must. Both have legitimate claims and they have been fighting each other for over 3000 years, still can't find common ground and no single power or world entity has been able to resolve it. So, So Sad.

You guys do know that after announcing/inviting whats his name to speak, Iran released a political prisoner who is an alumni of Columbia University.....or was it they released the prisoner and bent over and took one so whats his name could speak at their school?

Do you have a link or something backing this up?

I think it is remarkable how everyone is so calm about this. It reminds me of when Kruschief came over from Russia during the cold war. I think Bush ought to talk to him. It is amazing that Ahmadinejad brought the fight to us. It shows how peaceful a nation we are. At least among the majority of people.

Is elderban the site police?

reply to post by maryjenkins


I think it was good for him to come over here. I think, with a lot of people, it eased tensions and exposed a second side to the whole US-Iran standoff. I'd say at least a few million were exposed to a different side of the story.

It's unfortunate that the media is controlled and has so much power, because they still managed to spin it, and will continue to do so, with pure hate speech about the guy rather than addressing what he said. If they would just report the truth, I think the majority of this country would be against a war with Iran.

I have no doubt publicity and propaganda for his own country were factors in his decision to come over here, but I think it also shows that what we're told about Iran and him through our media isn't the truth, and is completely fabricated and over-exaggerated. He had to know coming over here would put his life in danger, but he did it anyway.

So, that said, I'm sure he's not the most peace loving, gentle guy in the world, and I'm sure he's done things he needs to be punished for, but despite that, I applaud him for making the effort to come over here.

Originally posted by TheKriv
Is elderban the site police?

No, I would be interested in reading it...I haven't been able to find anything regarding what he mentioned.

Originally posted by Dr Love

Originally posted by carewemust
The way he talks and the effect he's having on people
reminds me of how the Bible says the Anti-Christ will come to power
on the world scene.

Oooooh...........the boogeyman.............anti-christ!

Have you really reached that point of desperation already?

Peace

Quote from transcript:

PRESIDENT AHMADINEJAD: Oh, God, hasten the arrival of Imam al- Mahdi and grant him good health and victory, and make us his followers and those who attest to his (rightfulness ?).

End Quote:

Do people question what the agenda of this means? Did the Americans feel like they could not ask what this meant because it would be politically incorect and could lead to some religious conflict down the line of conversation.

Basically what he is saying he is waiting for this 'Imam al- Mahdi' like the Christians are waiting for the Anti-Christ to appear first. This prophet will only come down on eve of worldly war maybe a victory over America and Isreal is what he means. His long term goal is to probably ignite this which is scarey because he means it, plus add everything else he has said. Guess no one caught on because he read it out from a book.

Also it does fit in perfectly with Bible prophecy Eziekiel 38 and his is waiting for his own version of the war of Gog and Magog without even knowing it including Russia and Syria.

True or false what ever the religions say as both can not be right, but scary to say some people want events to happen by trying to force it which does not work that way anyway.

Originally posted by The time lord
PRESIDENT AHMADINEJAD: Oh, God, hasten the arrival of Imam al- Mahdi and grant him good health and victory, and make us his followers and those who attest to his (rightfulness ?).

I wonder what would happen if George Bush started every speech similarly asking for the return of Jesus to happen quickly?

I imagine all the people here who love Ahmadinejad would start loving Bush?

Originally posted by djohnsto77

Originally posted by The time lord
PRESIDENT AHMADINEJAD: Oh, God, hasten the arrival of Imam al- Mahdi and grant him good health and victory, and make us his followers and those who attest to his (rightfulness ?).

I wonder what would happen if George Bush started every speech similarly asking for the return of Jesus to happen quickly?

I imagine all the people here who love Ahmadinejad would start loving Bush?

Before Jesus returns from the sky we know what to expect to find a grand scale war starting in Iran and then Iraq being destroyed completely to dust whist the world gangs up on Israel with a false Messiah leading from the rebuilt Temple in Temple mount.

[edit on 26-9-2007 by The time lord]

Ok this is my first ever post. I'm a long time viewer but this Ahmadinejad stuff has prompted me to step in. I personally found his welcome at Columbia University pretty disgusting asides from being inaccurate.

First of all in reality in the line of power in Iran he is about 3rd place - he is not a dictator.

Iran has also long been considered one of if not the most democratic Islamic state.

I wonder if the King of Saudi Arabia or other rulers of supposed western 'allies' came to speak in the US would they be given the same sort of welcome. Their domestic policies are just as distasteful.

From my point of view he has been welcomed in the US as if he is literally some sort of bogey man. In reality other rulers such as Putin in Russia have not been much more criminal and threatening rulers.

According to our News sources he has said distasteful things about the Holocaust, though some have claimed he has been mistranslated.

I could go on, but the main thing to me is this: Ahmadinejad has been pilloried in the Western media, but for what - basically for what he has supposed to have said - not really for anything he has done. Yet he is welcomed as some sort of bogey man. On the other side we have someone like Bush who has actually been responsible for starting (possibly or probably illegitimate) wars which have resulted in the deaths of thousands of people, many civilian. There are also many other allies of the West who have been responsible for worse 'domestic terrorism' than Iran.

My basic point/question is this: what is worse threatening evil or practicing evil?

Some interesting images may show how much Ahmadinejad hates Jews, and vice-versa...

www.president.ir...

www.president.ir...

www.president.ir...

The whole page with text...
www.democraticunderground.com...

Again, I post this to attempt to illustrate the other side of the coin. Of course, this appears to be the Iranian equivalent of whitehouse.gov, so judge for yourselves...Andy

reply to post by drumist69


I don't think the man is as evil as FOX News wants to make him out to be - but having said that, I've seen far too many Bush set up photo-ops to really put a whole lot of stock into Ahmadinejad's photos.

All world leaders do it no matter how much we like them or hate them. They all use the ever popular photo-op propaganda.

Agreed, Novus, hence my disclaimer. Andy

Originally posted by drumist69
Agreed, Novus, hence my disclaimer. Andy

Yeah I guess I should read the whole post first. That might be helpful for me.

Sorry about that

No harm, no foul....Andy

Iranian forces have shelled deeper into northern Iraq than previously, hitting targets in an area northeast of the city of Arbil, a local official said Thursday.
"The Iranian forces began their bombardments again on Wednesday evening targeting far away from the border," said Abdul Wahid Koani, mayor of the Kurdish Iraqi border town of Joman.

"This time the Iranian bombardment was different as it targeted a town deep inside Iraqi territory," Koani told AFP.

Iranian artillery shells landed in the Haj Umran area, hitting targets on two mountains and villages abandoned from earlier attacks, he said, adding that they reached as far as 17 kilometres (10.5 miles) into Iraqi territory.

Iran confirmed for the first time on Sunday that it had been shelling camps of Kurdish militants inside northern Iraq, saying the local authorities had not listened to its warnings.

The militant Kurdish separatist group PJAK -- linked to Turkey's outlawed Kurdistan Workers' Party (PKK) -- has been behind a string of deadly attacks on security forces in northwestern Iran in recent months.

Iraqi Kurdish officials said last month that hundreds of Iraqi Kurds had fled remote mountain villages near the country's eastern frontier after Iranian gunners targeted separatist guerrilla bases.


Copyright AFP 2007, AFP stories and photos shall not be published, broadcast, rewritten for broadcast or publication or redistributed directly or indirectly in any medium

reply to post by nevermindmyname


So, what does this mean? What is the AFP? I'll look into that. How come you posted a copy and paste of this article with no personal comment? What is one to think? Andy

Edit for this...Is AFP agence frence-presse, or the association of fundraising professionals, or association for financial professionals. All of these come up in a yahoo search. Not trying to sound like a smart-ass, just want to make sure! Andy

[edit on 28-9-2007 by drumist69]

News update on Iraq.
Will see if opinions have changed over the course of time but see what people think anyway.

www.telegraph.co.uk.../news/2008/01/06/wisrael106.xml

Israel warns of Iranian missile peril for Europe

By Carolynne Wheeler in Jerusalem
A senior Israeli cabinet minister has told The Sunday Telegraph that his government is convinced Iran is intent on becoming the first Muslim superpower, with weapons capable of striking not only at Israel but also Egypt, Libya, Saudi Arabia as well as Greece and other parts of south-eastern Europe.
------------------------------------
Okay some may say Isreal trying to get backing, but then again Iran is not exactly pro-western either and I bet even the UK is in their sights if they went suicidle over the world and got offended some how by an Allah statement that some European country that wants to prove it's freedom of speech.