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Chief Nigro FDNY, WTC7 Conspiracies "without merit"

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posted on Sep, 29 2008 @ 01:52 PM
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Download and listen to the battalion commander in one of the WTC towers say something to the effect of "The fires aren't very big, and one line should be able to extinguish them". This was the BATTALION CHIEF who SAW THE IMPACT ZONE. (If I remember all of that correctly).

Have a nice day.




posted on Sep, 29 2008 @ 02:32 PM
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Originally posted by ANOK
Correct, a standard lead round will not penetrate 'construction' steel. It may go through very thin sheets of mild steel, because even though lead is softer it is more dense, and is less brittle than steel...

So it's not just about the hardness of the steel, it's about the physical forces endured. That's what I have been trying to have you point out



A standard lead round from a handgun will not even penetrate all the way through a car door, they tend to stop in the middle. If I could find the military police training vid I saw that shows that I'd post it.

I guess I can believe that with a .22 or similar, but there's no way a bog standard car door will stop a .40. Didn't Mythbusters try this out?


But it's not my definition, it's Newtons. If you disagree with the definition then correct the definition with facts, not questions.

The definition is not in question, your limited application of it is. There is more at work than simply the hardness of an object, as you have pointed out the density matters, so does its deformation characteristics. These impacts have been simulated by independent agencies, and nothing has been found at fault. What authority or calculations do you bring to the table to contradict this?


Originally posted by sir_chancealot
Download and listen to the battalion commander in one of the WTC towers say something to the effect of "The fires aren't very big, and one line should be able to extinguish them". This was the BATTALION CHIEF who SAW THE IMPACT ZONE. (If I remember all of that correctly).

You do not. The quote was this:

Ladder 15, we've got two isolated pockets of fire. We should be able to knock it down with two lines


Chief Palmer was located on floor 78, the lowest impacted floor and an open skylobby. We have pictures from the time he said this showing large quantities of fire on the floors above him, and his quote includes this:

Radio that, 78th floor numerous 10-45 Code Ones

A 10-45 Code One is a fatality.

This quote is often take out of context to make it appear as if the fires were small and easily controlled, they were not and using quotes this way is disrespectful towards those who struggled valiantly to save lived despite the overwhelming odds against them.



posted on Sep, 29 2008 @ 02:36 PM
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reply to post by Soloist
 


Again a question? You can't explain where you think I'm wrong with facts?


Fortunately for most of us, reaching that limit in bones is no easy matter. Feld says bone can withstand 40 times more force than concrete, and a cylinder of bone less than an inch in diameter and 2 1/3 inches long can withstand a force of more than 25,000 newtons. Hands and feet can withstand even more than that, because their skin, muscles, ligaments, tendons, and cartilage absorb a great deal of impact. As a result, a well-kicked foot can absorb about 2,000 times as much force as concrete before breaking.

Breaking Boards

And next I suppose you'll bring up straw sticking in trees in a tornado as some kind of proof.


Don't make assumptions, do some research...

[edit on 29/9/2008 by ANOK]



posted on Sep, 29 2008 @ 02:48 PM
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reply to post by exponent
 


Mythbuster lol.

I watched a vid that showed many different rounds and weapons shooting into a large car door. It was a military security training vid we were shown when I was in auxiliary security in the Navy, we were trained by a Marine Staff Sergeant. The only ones to fully go through the door where rifle rounds and non-lead rounds (steel jacket etc...). Other rounds lost their momentum after going through the first panel of thin sheet metal.
Almost everyone in the room was surprised at the results because, like you, they assumed too much.

The door was off of a big 70's cars, heavy duty. What did Mythbusters use?

I don't expect you to believe me, but I will stand by my opinion until you can prove me wrong with evidence. I doubt that vid is available anywhere on line but I will look for it.



posted on Sep, 29 2008 @ 03:55 PM
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reply to post by ANOK
 



Funny, from the article you posted :


Punch a brick with your bare hand, untutored in the martial arts, and you may break a finger. Punch it with the proper force, momentum, and positioning, and you'll break the brick instead.


I guarantee you that if I smack your hand with a 2x4 that hand will break, yet done right, with the proper force, momentum and positioning the opposite is not true.

According to your explanation of "basic physics" this just shouldn't happen.






posted on Sep, 29 2008 @ 09:26 PM
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reply to post by ANOK
 


Newton (and others) get a bashing here at ATS and I was sort of getting used to it by now but your 'speed is irrelevant' statement really stands out.

Where does the force required to be dissipated (by all participants) in a collision come from?

The energy available is proportional to the square of velocity and is the most significant factor in the event (1/2m.v^2). The actual force can be determined by the rate of loss of velocity (deceleration) in the collision (F=M.A). Newton is correct in saying the forces are equal and opposite (assuming the moving object is halted) but what happens when the force is applied over a surface area small enough to create a pressure that hugely exceeds the UTS of the target material?

The material (hardness) of the projectile is not very significant in this situation at the moment of impact. It becomes significant as the projectile penetrates further deforming (flattening out) and decelerating, creating a larger surface area of contact which reduces the pressures applied to subsequent target material.

Remember that the buildings were not solid contiguous objects, they were 95% empty space with a relatively thin outer wall.



posted on Sep, 30 2008 @ 05:15 AM
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Originally posted by ANOK
I don't expect you to believe me, but I will stand by my opinion until you can prove me wrong with evidence. I doubt that vid is available anywhere on line but I will look for it.

You are making an unverifiable claim that I must somehow prove wrong. If you are American, I suggest the easiest way to prove yourself wrong is to assemble a series of weapons and fire them at steel plate.

Mythbusters did in fact test this in Season 2, the episode was called "Car Capers".

Pilgrum has already expanded on why you are wrong, but I simply wanted to get you to say that indeed it is not just the hardness or density of the material which matters, it is the forces endured during impact. You clearly stated as such in your previous post and that is good enough for me. You also failed to address the point I made that independent analysis has been done in at least two situations (Weidlinger, Purdue) and found no issue with the planes penetrating the building.

edit: Pilgrum != Pilgrim, sorry about that!

[edit on 30-9-2008 by exponent]



posted on Sep, 30 2008 @ 09:33 PM
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Originally posted by exponent
Purdue) and found no issue with the planes penetrating the building.


I have issues with Purdue's "animation". They show thin sheets of aluminum slicing through the steel core columns like butter. Thin sheets.


And we're suppossed to think this is real life physics going on?



[edit on 9/30/2008 by Griff]



posted on Sep, 30 2008 @ 11:35 PM
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Originally posted by exponent
You are making an unverifiable claim that I must somehow prove wrong. If you are American, I suggest the easiest way to prove yourself wrong is to assemble a series of weapons and fire them at steel plate.


Pilgrim has not shown I'm wrong.

I really don't care about myth busters, I think the training vid I saw has far more merit thanx. I don't have to shoot anything into car doors, as the training vid I saw was enough. But I guess I must have been seeing things when I was in the military.


But as I already explained, lead is more dense than mild steel and yes it could go through very thin sheets of it. That does not contradict Newtons 3rd law at all. As for ALUMINIUM sorry but it is not going through steel, especially huge closely spaced steel columns creating a cartoon cutout. Again you have to understand the materials being discussed here.

As for the cartoon Perdu made, well I can make anything happen with ANIMATION. I saw one once where a guy made the world spin backwards, so using your logic I guess that's possible also eh?

That animation just shows what they want you to think happened, obviously. Just like the NIST report and all the other lies coming from the government and it's apologists.



posted on Sep, 30 2008 @ 11:48 PM
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Originally posted by Pilgrum
...Remember that the buildings were not solid contiguous objects, they were 95% empty space with a relatively thin outer wall.


95% empty space lol? What difference does that make? If it was just one wall of steel columns standing by themselves it would be completely surrounded by open air, again how does that effect the planes impact with said columns?

I don't see the point of that argument?

The plane didn't flatten out or slow down on impact with the towers, that's what makes me question the planes impacts. Have you watched the videos? Or just glanced at them? Both planes go into the towers like a knife into butter. You would expect, as you correctly pointed out, to see the planes slow down significantly on impact. That didn't happen...

www.youtube.com...

(sry still haven't learned how to inbed lol)

[edit on 9/30/2008 by ANOK]



posted on Oct, 1 2008 @ 03:46 AM
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Originally posted by Griff
I have issues with Purdue's "animation". They show thin sheets of aluminum slicing through the steel core columns like butter. Thin sheets.


And we're suppossed to think this is real life physics going on?

Purdue's animation is just that, a visual representation of the FEA model they conducted. The point of it is to attempt to show the results of impact in a clear manner. Just because it shows what you assume to be just a thin sheet of aluminium changes nothing. Weidlinger and NIST conducted the same studies. Don't tell me you're about to become a no-planer Griff



Originally posted by ANOK
I really don't care about myth busters, I think the training vid I saw has far more merit thanx. I don't have to shoot anything into car doors, as the training vid I saw was enough. But I guess I must have been seeing things when I was in the military.

Again you're quoting a completely unverifiable source, what exactly can anyone say to respond to that? Perhaps an old steel car door would have a better chance of stopping a small calibre handgun round, but by your previous logic the calibre and the velocity is irrelevant. This is obviously not correct.


But as I already explained, lead is more dense than mild steel and yes it could go through very thin sheets of it. That does not contradict Newtons 3rd law at all. As for ALUMINIUM sorry but it is not going through steel, especially huge closely spaced steel columns creating a cartoon cutout. Again you have to understand the materials being discussed here.

This does not explain anything, why does density matter when before only hardness mattered? Do you understand what tensile strength is?


As for the cartoon Perdu made, well I can make anything happen with ANIMATION. I saw one once where a guy made the world spin backwards, so using your logic I guess that's possible also eh?

Using this logic, you are accusing the people at Purdue of lying and being complicit in murder, based on nothing but your own incredulity. Do you consider this strong evidence? Their animation was a visualisation of an FEA model and as I have pointed out to Griff, there are several of these models existing, none predicting the aircraft should not have entered the towers.


That animation just shows what they want you to think happened, obviously. Just like the NIST report and all the other lies coming from the government and it's apologists.

This is useless handwaving. You dismiss it because it disagrees with you, rather than because you have any actual facts to dispute it. Do you want to talk to people such as Stanley Praimnath? He survived impact and not only saw the plane, but saw the results of impact. You must therefore be accusing him of lying.



posted on Oct, 1 2008 @ 03:58 AM
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Nigro is clearly ignorant or complicate. Personally i don't trust anything Bernie Kerik has to say about 9/11 either. He was right there with Giuliani on 9/11 telling him to keep his mouth shut about explosions. It does not surprise me that they were all linked to the Mafia.



KERIK SCANDAL & the Curious Upward Mobility of a Mobster

Current scandal with Bernard Kerik-- wherein Giuliani promoted Kerik for Head of Homeland Security in 2004 and other other posts before that despite having already been "briefed" on his mob-ties and other corrupt behavior. He know admits to knowledge of Kerik since at least 2000, though he had previous denied this until the Kerik story became prominent.

Did you know Giuliani's father was a convicted hold-up man who served time in an upstate prison and was later employed as an enforcer for a Mafia loan shark operation? Giuliani denied it but later admitted it was true. According to his book, a number of his other relatives were also in the Mafia besides the uncles who were firemen and police officers that he proudly refers to in public speeches.


Kerik indicted: Godfather Giuliani's mafia-run NY police



These guys are professional LIARS, so why should we believe anything they have to say of 9/11.

[edit on 1-10-2008 by Insolubrious]



posted on Oct, 1 2008 @ 04:07 AM
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Originally posted by Insolubrious
Nigro is clearly ignorant or complicate. Personally i don't trust anything Bernie Kerik has to say about 9/11 either. He was right there with Giuliani on 9/11 telling him to keep his mouth shut about explosions. It does not surprise me that they were all linked to the Mafia.


Are you joking? You're accusing Chief Nigro of being complicit in the attacks?

You realise of course, that he only gained command of the situation after his immediate superior was killed? Claiming that firefighters may be 'in on it', despite them losing over 300 of their close friends is quite sickening.



posted on Oct, 1 2008 @ 04:18 AM
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he was probably threatened with his job and cement shoes if he didn't back up the official whitewash, it's probably in the small print of his contract somewhere. Also the perps most likely would of used police and firefighter disguises to move around the site on 9/11.



posted on Oct, 1 2008 @ 04:30 AM
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Originally posted by Insolubrious
he was probably threatened with his job and cement shoes if he didn't back up the official whitewash, it's probably in the small print of his contract somewhere. Also the perps most likely would of used police and firefighter disguises to move around the site on 9/11.



I had a great laugh this morning. Wow the woo got deep here!!!



posted on Oct, 1 2008 @ 05:05 AM
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i am glad it amuses you TY, but just keep laughing it up. Clearly you have no argument to counter my post, so you resort to poking fun. Very clever.



posted on Oct, 1 2008 @ 06:05 AM
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reply to post by ANOK
 


Are you still sticking to the idea that speed doesn't matter?

It's OK if you are - I'm just registering my disagreement as I don't see the value in arguing about something this basic


The analogy of bullets and car doors is good here because we're talking about a 100 tonne projectile moving at near ballistic speed. By the 95% open space I'm referring to the relative lack of material to oppose the plane's mass once it's pierced that outer wall (until it reached the much denser core area). Yes it did go through that wall consisting of hollow steel tubes like a hot knife through butter and analysis has suggested that less than 20% of the plane's energy was expended in doing so.



posted on Oct, 1 2008 @ 08:16 AM
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Originally posted by Insolubrious
he was probably threatened with his job and cement shoes if he didn't back up the official whitewash, it's probably in the small print of his contract somewhere.

It's in his contract that he will be killed should he not back up the "official story"? Could you be any more offensive to this man? He worked valiantly to save the lives of people that day and you respond by claiming he's probably just keeping quiet about the murder of 3000 people to keep his job?


Also the perps most likely would of used police and firefighter disguises to move around the site on 9/11.

What relevance would this have to anything, why would anyone from the shadowy conspirators even be at Ground Zero?



posted on Oct, 1 2008 @ 08:36 AM
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Originally posted by exponent
What relevance would this have to anything, why would anyone from the shadowy conspirators even be at Ground Zero?


I don't know, maybe hand a policeman a pristine passport that just happens to be one of the hijackers? Just maybe?



posted on Oct, 1 2008 @ 08:38 AM
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Building 7 was clearly demolished, if Nigro can't even admit it looked just a tiny bit like a demolition and that there is absolutely nothing suspicious about 7s collapse then he is clearly very ignorant or complicate. Simple as that. And yes i believe he would lie to save his job. See examples of such acts in above post from Former NYC Police Commissioner Bernard Kerik indicted for a variety of lies and corruption all in the name of saving Americans.



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