Israelis Seized Nuclear Material in Syrian Raid

Reuters now using the times piece as a source for their article:

Israeli commandos prepared Syria strike: paper

...However, diplomats close to the International Atomic Energy Agency have said they are unaware of such concerns. And some analysts also question the theory, noting in some cases, the failure to find secret weapons in Iraq after Washington had used their supposed existence to justify toppling Saddam Hussein.

The Sunday Times said that, in order to win U.S. President George W. Bush's support for the air raid in Syria's Deir az-Zor region in the early hours of September 6, Israeli commandos earlier had seized "nuclear-related" material. Tests later indicated it had originated in North Korea, the newspaper said...

The article brings up some inconsistencies in the stories we have been told concerning the Israeli raid.

All the reports that I have seen are basing their articles on the Timesonline.uk story interestingly enough the only Arab based article I located is doing the same.

Israeli forces seize proof of Syrian nuke program

This report is from the UAE - United Arab Emirates.

Is anyone reminded of that movie "Wag the Dog"?

Former Syrian Information minister calls the article psychological warfare and called for the Israelis to show the evidence.

LINK

reply to post by 4thDoctorWhoFan


The only time a nuclear device will detonate within the US is if your "government" allows it to happen...Just like 9/11...

By government, do I mean the GOP which currently holds the presidency...Do I mean the congress or the senate...no...neither of those...

By government, i refer to those forces with your "intelligence" agencies who only ever act to further their own ends, whatever they maybe (9/11 anyone ?)

There is a close to zero chance a foreign organisation would be able to detonate any nuclear device with the US without the help of US authorities...

You guys need to remove your attention from the "terrorists" supposedly operating from outside your country, and concentrate on those groups which operate inside with the blessings of your powers that be....

Peace and good luck...

EDIT - for minor typo


[edit on 23-9-2007 by Rilence]

Perhaps this as yet unsubstantiated news was released to bury another news report? Specifically this one released yesterday:



Here's a related article released yesterday as well.
Shots in the dark over Syria's skies

It's a long read but here are some excerpts:

Israel has imposed a media blackout on the events of the night of September 6, when Syria claimed its airspace in the northern province of Raqqa had been violated and that its defenses forced Israeli F-15 jets to flee, dropping "munitions" and fuel tanks in the desert near the Turkish border.

The US media insist, however, that the Israelis hit something major. The latest reports, attributed to "US government sources", say that Israel, with tacit assistance and support from the US, bombed a facility at which nuclear weapons were being developed with assistance from North Korea.

Joshua Landis, a professor at Oklahoma University who is an expert on Syrian affairs and runs Syriacomment.com, said: "Bolton represents the crowd that is very distressed that the US has declared defeat in North Korea by trusting the North Koreans. They would like to scuttle that agreement."

A diplomat associated with the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) was quoted saying that the organization didn't know anything about any nuclear facility in Syria.

The reports have not gone unchallenged. Joseph Cirincione, author of Bomb Scare: The History and Future of Nuclear Weapons and a senior fellow and director for nuclear policy at the Center for American Progress, said, "This story is nonsense."

Everyone else can click the link and read the full story, these excerpts are for the war-mongers mentioned in the second excerpt above.

"well placed sources"
"an unidentified senior American source"
"according to Washington and Israeli sources"

nothing to see here...

reply to post by Beachcoma


Thanks for adding to the discussion

Some interesting thoughts from Dr Ephraim Asculai a former member of the IAEA who called the report "hallucinatory":

'No alternative to ground operations'

..."We hear different versions of what happened every day," he told Ynet. "The report leads us to believe that the soldiers took samples of the material in a bottle and left. The nuclear material may have been enriched uranium or plutonium – it is very dangerous to transfer this material by hand....

Couple of things here:
1. The relative silence of the Syrian Govt. over this is weird. I am assuming that sattelite photos and other evidece was presented by Israel to the US showing the the resulting destruction of the Syrian Base. Since Syria has not really flat out denied the planes destroyed a base, I tend to think that the Israelis did just that. Bashir Assad is in no position to deny things like or he would have sent journalists to the area in question to show the base still standing. Doing so would make him look a weak and inneffective leader, a virtual death sentance in the Arab world.

2. I don't buy the Israel snatching the Nuclear material beforehand. The base probably would have been guarded quite heavily and the amount of force needed to get the material would have been more substantil than a small team of Spec. Ops people. It would have needed a full airlift of good amount of men and we hear no evidence of that

3 Probably the most disturbing part of this whole story is the North Korean invovlement. We as pretty sure the NK have the Material, warhead Tech and Missile systems to be a nuclear power. That they have shared it with Syria is troubling but not as much as this. Who is NK primary arms purchaser in the Region? It's Iran, a country already working hard on a nuclear program that is very probable of a military bent. The estimates of Iran building a bomb are based on our supposition of Iran's own advancement timeline of the materials and technology. What if NK has supplied them both of those? Then the timeline for a nuclear Iran gets shortened by a substantial amount, probably 14-24 months shorter.

That is the really troubling part of this whole story, if the story is true. If NK has been giving nuclear weapons assistance to Syria, what makes anyone think they haven't done the same to Iran?

if they(us and israel) have evidence...present it. somehow i doubt that will ever happen.

Iran is co-operating with the IAEA - the latest report is on the IAEA website. *short version - the IAEA are happy with Iran as they have signed the NPT)


Israel have never allowed ANY IAEA inspectors near its `leaking` Dimona reactor (leaking - check IAEA website for details) has never signed the NPT and has threaten syria to be wiped from the face of teh earth (thread title on the ats forum)

Arab nations are scared of israel - and quite rightly as many comparisons can be made between them (israel) and germany in the 1930`s in there bullying actions.


Never forget the USS Liberty.

Originally posted by KaneT
Showing the alleged nuclear materials to the IAEA would increase the credability of the claims. It seems surprising to me they were only shown to the US, before the raid it may have been for security reasons but now the raid has been completed there should be not problem with showing the evidence to the IAEA.

[edit on 23-9-2007 by KaneT]

The possibility exists, if the MSNBC news story is true, that US nuclear weapons stockpile security could have been compromised one or more times, over the last several years. This breach of security and control could have concieveably lead to the "mis-appropriation" of one or more nuclear warheads; including sophisticated variable-yield warheads designed to be deployed by platforms as small as a cruise missle.

Israel recently conducted an otherwise unprovoked air raid on Syria. Latest reports claim that the raid was in response to intelligence indicating the presence of "nuclear material" possibly supplied by North Korea, possibly either intended for a nascent Syrian nuclear program, or for eventual shipment to Syrian-ally, Iran.

The US has recently (and not so recently!) charged that the People's Republic of China has at least attempted to hack into Pentagon computers.


Scenario:


China gains access to US nuclear warhead serial number files by hacking into US military databases. Chinese hackers alter the serial numbers to one or more (likely more) warheads, particularly those that can be deployed by missles, and disguises them as non-nuclear, possibly obsolete dummies, targeted for disposal.

China thus acquires working samples of US nuclear warheads.

But to what end?

Assuming that the Chinese could eventually defeat/disable/bypass the security systems built into the warheads (which, with the resources of a world power, we must assume they could), what could they do with such knowledge?

China supplies North Korea with the device that "Lil' Kim" sets off not so long ago. NK thus gains access to the world's "Nuclear Power Club"", and a huge bargaining chip in future negotiations with the West.

The "fizzle" was actually a stolen US nuke set to its lowest possible yield; the test actually intended to determine if the Chinese hackers had gotten the codes right. They did.

Is that why North Korea has suddenly decided to "play nice" and shut down its "nuclear (weapons) program", because NK never actually had a weapons program of its own in the first place?

China, in a bold Mid-East power-play, through its friend/ally/client North Korea, supplies Syria with a nuclear warhead small enough to fit on a missle, such as a Syrian Scud-C, along with its arming and control codes, originally of US origin.

China has long-standing relations with North Korea. North Korea has long-standing relations with Syria. Syria has long-standing relations with Iran. Iran has long-standing relations with...China. Let the circle be unbroken!


So...

Syria nukes Israel. Tel Aviv or Hiafa are possible targets (my money's on Hiafa).

But Lo! Analysis of the debris shows the origin of the nuke material to have been Isreali ally and good friend, the USofA!

Who does Isreal retaliate against?

Weakened, bloodied, apparently betrayed by their closest ally, Isreal severs its ties to the US, and eventually succumbs. Or at least, the "Special Relationship"which has allowed Isreal to act forcefully in ME politics as a US proxy-state, is strained to the point of ineffectiveness.

The net result is that the US/Israeli hold on the ME is broken and the way is made clear for a new power to rise: Iran.

Iran, with all its gas, oil, and nuclear power reserves.

Iran, with its dear old friend, China.


It is highly unlikely that the US would ever publicly admit that any of its nukes have turned up missing, or that the security of its nuclear arming codes has ever been compromised.

It is highly likely that, given the current political climate, Washington, D.C. would more than welcome the opportunity to link the discovery of "nuclear materials"in Syria to Iran if at all possible.



I've re-posted the above from an earlier post I made concerning the Barksdale incident. I believe it might fit either/both threads.

I think that if we postulate that the "nuclear material" Israel provided its US ally, in return for a "Green Light" to attack Syria, was in fact a photographed serial number from a missing US nuke, we might conclude that the world is unlikely to ever be provided with such "proof".

reply to post by 4thDoctorWhoFan


I do admire you are starting to look at history to find parallels keep working on it, the middle east is a really complicated mess. Especially the history of the factions in Lebannon and Syria and Isreals actions there.

This might not sound like the best source, but Wiki is really not bad. The totality of information lets you hyperlink around as you build connections. Granted it is not deep, and is susceptable to bias, but it can add a layer of primer on lots of topics.

reply to post by Bhadhidar


I was actually listening till you said Isreal cuts ties with US. Aint going to happen, Isreal would just replace our congress with new people before doing that.


Oh and did anyone notice if that nuke material had Minot Air Base stamped anywhere on it?

This just came out in The Jerusalem Post:



Here's another report that corroborates the assertions above, but I'm not so sure how trustworthy this one is, because nobody was actually cited. It's like the article linked in the OP, with "well-informed sources," but in reverse.



Despite my uncertainty, it most certainly does strike a chord of familiarity. Didn't this happen before? Are we seeing a repeat performance of the events that lead up to the Iraq Invasion?

Tempus omnia revelat.

[edit on 23-9-2007 by Beachcoma]

[edit on 9/23/07 by FredT]

An interesting read from Newsweek, though I believe it was written prior to the Times article, it throws out a lot of questions and scenarios to the current events in the Middle East and includes a little insight on the raid into Syria.

Newsweek

How far will Israel go to keep Iran from getting the bomb? The question gained new urgency this month when Israeli warplanes carried out a mysterious raid deep in Syria and then threw up a nearly impenetrable wall of silence around the operation. Last week opposition leader Benjamin Netanyahu chipped away at that wall, saying Israel did in fact attack targets in Syrian territory. His top adviser, Mossad veteran Uzi Arad, told NEWSWEEK: "I do know what happened, and when it comes out it will stun everyone."

The article also brings up the "C" word, discussing a report that VP Cheney was mulling the idea of letting Israel attack the nuclear site in Iran.

Same Newsweek article

A few months before he quit, according to two knowledgeable sources, Wurmser told a small group of people that Cheney had been mulling the idea of pushing for limited Israeli missile strikes against the Iranian nuclear site at Natanz—and perhaps other sites—in order to provoke Tehran into lashing out. The Iranian reaction would then give Washington a pretext to launch strikes against military and nuclear targets in Iran. (Wurmser's remarks were first reported last week by Washington foreign-policy blogger Steven Clemons and corroborated by NEWSWEEK.)

[edit on 2007/9/23 by JacKatMtn]

Originally posted by Rilence
The only time a nuclear device will detonate within the US is if your "government" allows it to happen...Just like 9/11...

Sorry but that is just insane. In fact, its so ludicrous I cannot even dignify your thoughts with a response.

Originally posted by Redge777
I do admire you are starting to look at history to find parallels keep working on it, the middle east is a really complicated mess. Especially the history of the factions in Lebannon and Syria and Isreals actions there.

Well we agree that the middle east is a complicated and confusing mess. I might add that most of the mess has nothing to do with the USA. Hell, that mess was happening way before there was even a USA.

reply to post by JacKatMtn


So in other words this was all to send a message to Iran? Anyway, thanks for the link. I was wondering if Newsweek had an online portal. Didn't know it was part of MSNBC.


Here is a link to a Newsweek interview with the Syrian Ambassador to the UN.

Israel ‘Will Pay a Price’

It's a 4 page article, so I won't quote much of it, just enough in case people jump on that headline without reading the whole thing.

The reason some in the media have been speculating, I think, is because Israeli censors are enforcing a strict clampdown and people who know something have suggested that this raid was a big deal, that something was targeted and that what was targeted was hit.
Israel usually is very boastful, very arrogant. Usually when they do something they boast about how spectacular their operation was, how successful they were. This time it’s only linkages here and there by people who claim this and that. ].

I wonder what sort of retaliation they have in mind.

PS: JacKatMtn - Sorry, I didn't see your link above to the JPost article about psych warfare, I hope you didn't mind me reposting it in the previous post. Woah, that's a lot of the word "post" in one sentence

Mod Edit: trimmed down external quote

[edit on 9/23/07 by FredT]

it's silly to think if some little country in the middle east were to get a few nukes would use them on israel or america. if that happened the whole region would be turned to glass and everyone knows it.

Originally posted by Freakaloin
it's silly to think if some little country in the middle east were to get a few nukes would use them on israel or america. if that happened the whole region would be turned to glass and everyone knows it.

Except for the fact that Ahmedudoofus of Iran said he would annihilate Israel. You have to take these lunatics at their word.

Originally posted by esdad71
Maybe this week at the UN it will be brought up after Iran's rhetoric. That would be great. Show the evidence to the world.

That would probably be the best course of action.

To take a lesson from history, in the Cuban Missile Crisis the US allowed the Soviets to basically dig their own graves by almost (but not quite) denying there were nuclear missiles in Cuba... and then held up giant labelled pictures taken from U-2 spyplanes depicting the missile sites. Needless to say, it was a huge diplomatic blow for the USSR and a big gain for the US. It would be very helpful for the US to do something similar again... but it has to have genuine evidence.