zeitgeist, valid or not?

Please watch to at least 35 min into the film (or let it load and skip until 18 min)


zeitgeistmovie.com...

I put this in the theology forum, because I want to focus on part one of the movie. If my memory is correct, part 1 ends around 35 min into the movie.

So once you have watched part 1, what do you think? Is all this plagiarism of other culture's religion a lie, or fact. I certainly would like to believe it's a lie. I would because it seems unlikely that several different races all believed in a prophet, who has the same characteristics as all the other ones.

Originally posted by wildcat
Is all this plagiarism of other culture's religion a lie, or fact.

I believe there is something to it; however, not in the specific examples they used and not in such minute (meaningless) superficial details. I think it would have been more valid if they had compared symbols, in general, presented in the bible - and to some degree, Christianity, although there are many ancient traditional symbols in the bible which are totally misread/mistranslated/manipulated by the Christian religion.

I certainly would like to believe it's a lie. I would because it seems unlikely that several different races all believed in a prophet, who has the same characteristics as all the other ones.

Perhaps - UNLESS - there is just one most high GOD who made all races? Or just one race - the HUMAN race?

well... the movie was pretty much on point... i remember once being told.. "the most dangerous thing for any christian to do is dtudy the origins of it's religion"

and that is oh...so... true!

It's quite a bit reaching for it; theres many things there that just happen to be similar. To be honest, I think it's pretty retarded.

The movie states that Jesus never existed, that he is just symbolism, that the records of him from other Historians and old Cities are all deemed unreliable or just symbolism. Where they (bible writers) got the elaborate stories of all the miracles, down to each and every persons name, and all the intricate things they did in those days which were everyday life but make no sense whatsoever to us, who knows? Better question is, even if they did have the capacity to pull something like that together, (the bible) with no actual live figures, just fiction, How? If so, I'd like to meet who made all this up and wrote it down, because clearly it is the greatest work of drama ever discovered in the ancient world by leaps and bounds. I mean nothing even comes close. To continue to argue that Jesus didn't exist, or even better, that theres NO truth to the majority of events that take place in the bible, is really just pissing in the wind.

It says some crap about Moses not being real either. And then it goes into Polytheist Hinduism and tries to draw from that to support the argument against the Monotheistic, Abhrahamic religions, specifically Christianity, but also Islam and Judaism.

Because the Jews claim Jesus existed, but that he was a regular guy. They have records of him in the Talmud.

Muslims claim Jesus existed, but that he never actually died on the cross. They have records of him in the Quran. The saying are the same from him. So is his life story pretty much.

Zeitgeist goes on to say that just because the Sun sets and rises, and it's close to a particular star or stars which make the form of a cross, that the "Sun is hung on the Cross" LITERALLY and this is where the "Symbolic" story of Jesus of Nazareth, a SON not SUN, and his crucifixion comes from. That is incredibly reaching to say the least.

Who on God's Earth would make up such a story just to explain in symbolism what can be said in one sentence? "The sun rises and sets, but it comes back, and once a day/year its in a spot in the sky thats like a cross."

Gee, that was so informative Zeitgeist. And yes, most of the stories in the Bible are from earlier sources, like the Babylonians, the Sumerians, various other ancient Civlizations. The Jews took much of their Mythos from the Babylonians during their Exile in Babylon, by the rivers Tigris and Euphrates. The Christians just used it as a foundation to build upon. So theres stories originally being from other sources means absolutely nothing to discredit the Bible. It simply means these stories are even MORE ancient than we thought. They go waaaaaaay back. In fact, since they are spoken of in more than one culture/religion/way, this lends credibility to their truthfulness.

And the fact that alot of influential religious "God/Deities" were born of a Virgin and had some of the qualities of Jesus does not make them all the same guy, one big symbolism and lie. Jesus was a flesh and bone man, he did not have super powers, he was not a diety. He was no God, and no, Jesus is not Lord, this is what I tell my fellow Christians. God is Lord, and God is great, and God is single and all. There is no trinity because Jesus was not equal to God, he was subservient to him and created by him. ("And Jesus was elevated to the right hand of the Lord") The Holy Spirit, as it is known, is actually the Will of God being enacted on Earth through Physical means. So the miracles performed by Jesus were really the Will of God alone, and had God not wanted people to follow Jesus, he would not have worked through his flesh to administer these miracles and signs.

Also, Jesus was extremely devout, pure, sinless, and in tune with his own soul on a level all of us probably wish we could come close to attaining. Why would God work through anything lesser? If he's going to stick his hands in water, may it be clean, clear water, and not muddy, dirty water. Jesus was clean water. God used it to quench his people's thirst. Thirst for knowledge of life and death, origin and what is to come. Thirst to no longer be destined to Sheol for sinning. Thirst for salvation and a thirst for a promise of divinity.


[edit on 9/24/2007 by runetang]

Originally posted by KINGOFPAIN
well... the movie was pretty much on point... i remember once being told.. "the most dangerous thing for any christian to do is dtudy the origins of it's religion"

and that is oh...so... true!

that is so so silly. i've studied Christianity extensively, as I have Judaism and Islam. Not to mention Buddhism, Hinduism, Taoism as a philosophy, and many other religions.

I wish all Christians could and would study the origins of their religion. and while they're at it, I wish they all could read the origins of Judaism and Islam too. I think it would make the world a much better place.

Now you can rag on Catholicism all you'd like, which is nothing more than Paganism and Christianity combined.

The reason Jesus' birthday is celebrated on Dec 25th is because that was very close to the Winter Solstice, traditionally a time of Celebration amongst the Germanic and Gaulish tribes of Europe, which were Roman territories. The custom of Christmas Trees -- Pre-Christian! It was a Germanic Pagan practice at Winter Solstice time. Theres many more, but you should PLEASE READ FOR YOURSELF, AND DO NOT BE FOOLED BY PEOPLE OUT TO CONVENIENTLY TURN YOU AWAY FROM FAITH BY WRAPPING A BUNCH OF BS IN A GOLDEN PACKAGE. You'll see Jesus' true Birthday is described as being in a Fall setting. We don't know his Birthday!

The Catholics took all these Christian Holidays and put them on top of Pagan Holidays to consolidate their hold on the many diverse peoples of the Roman Empire. By putting these on the same dates, the end result is that you'll have people partying regardless. And over time, the subject matter of the party can slowly be changed and a new one can be phazed in. This is exactly what they did with Christmas AND Easter. Barbarians loved to party. Still do!

I think it's probably 90% true. And the other 10% can't be proven either way.

Religion is a story. It's a nice, helpful-to-some story.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
I think it's probably 90% true. And the other 10% can't be proven either way.

Religion is a story. It's a nice, helpful-to-some story.

Well then, J.R.R. Tolkien and J.R Rowling ain't got nothin' on these Old, Humble, Uneducated men from thousands of years ago, who wrote by lamp light, with a feather dipped in ink on parchments, in the eternal symbols of Hebrew, the original language of Humans on Earth before God confounded all peoples tongues to stop them from advancing too quickly (Tower of Babel).

These guys must've been the best genius authors to ever walk the Earth man. I mean the sheer imaginations of it.. ALLL THESE STORIES, all these characters, names, people, all traceable back to previous books, written by other authors hundreds of years prior, through listed family bloodlines and listing of who had who's kids and their name and so forth. That is one helluva book.

No 1 man couldve written it. It's obviously a conglamoration of many books by many authors, all of the New Testament ones were written by Apostles of Yeshua (Jesus) while he was alive in the flesh, and others were written by the followers of these Apostles later into the 1st Century.

The Old Testament books are all written B.C., thousands of years ago. By again, various Jewish Kings and Priests, many of whom have historical references in more than one place/book/culture/carving/whatever.

Discard if you'd like, I'll pray God has mercy on ignorance. But I can't pray for those who've read it and still discard it, because that is no longer ignorance but outright rejection thus making one a true Infidel.

The bible does not = religion.

The bible is a book.
Religion is an ideology.

Several religions (or variations thereof) take their 'authority' from the bible; however, the bible does not promote a religion - not even Christianity.

There is an element of truth in everything ever written. The capacity to find it lies in the mind of the reader, not in the words, themselves.

reply to post by queenannie38


very true. i do derive some truth from the bible... can't argue against "thou shalt not kill" now, can i? but i don't take it as anything more than that. a book containing some truth with unfortunate religious attachments

I understand the bible is just a book, but for Christians, it is the center piece of their religion. For without it, they'd have no written history, nor any kept customs, and all would be forgotten or warped even worse by verbal passing.

But theres plenty of things in the Bible I can tell you are flat out incorrect and wrong, even to God IMHO, and were put in there by some authors who were just a tad bit misguided in one respect or another.

These same books and verses always seem to be the most quoted when quotes are used against the bible containing any validity or truth to it.

Originally posted by runetang
I understand the bible is just a book, but for Christians, it is the center piece of their religion.

Yet, improperly used and selectively applied!

And that is ME saying that - someone who is NOT at all an atheist or agnostic - far, far from either one! I would not say I am a 'bible-literalist' because most people's idea of literal is based in a different reality than I perceive; one mostly tangible and excluding the intangible - and I perceive reality as a balanced mixture of BOTH...

BUT I do take it seriously - as seriously as I take GOD!

For without it, they'd have no written history, nor any kept customs, and all would be forgotten or warped even worse by verbal passing.

It hasn't prevented those things from happening - they have!

But theres plenty of things in the Bible I can tell you are flat out incorrect and wrong, even to God IMHO, and were put in there by some authors who were just a tad bit misguided in one respect or another.

But if so, if you believe GOD is truly all-powerful and never second-guessed, out-smarted, or fooled, then why would GOD allow that to be?

Perhaps it is just that it has not yet been fully understood and applied, as intended? Or perhaps it has but yet the demonstration of such is discounted by the majority who claim THEY are the authorities rather than Spirit?

These same books and verses always seem to be the most quoted when quotes are used against the bible containing any validity or truth to it.

Exactly! Same-old-same-old mechanical by-rote canned responses!

Incredibly frustrating! *sigh*

YET that's just the way it is, for whatever reason, in our present time...and it's hard to get anywhere further when anything that doesn't fit in standard theology is pretty much just IGNORED, when brought up in discussion, debate, or conversation...

reply to post by KINGOFPAIN


dude the movie is full of crap .. check this out

www.zeitgeistresponse.info...

this guy has over a hundred sources to prove his point.. and there is mnay others just like him showing that the authors of zeitgeist are one sided and are out to brainwash people.. they use many common brain washing techniques.. jsut check it out.. if you really want answers then you will

Here's an old post I dug up from one of our very own moderators. Enjoy.

Originally posted by Byrd
Although I'm pagan and believe that Jesus was not a historical figure, I do want to set the record straight. There's actually no correlation between Horus and Jesus.

For reference, here's a summary of the oldest account of the birth of Horus:
touregypt.net...&FHorus.htm

1. Horus born of a virgin. Jesus born of a virgin.

In fact, Horus was born to a goddess married to another god (Isis, married to Osiris.)

2. The foster father of Horus was Seb or Seph. Jesus was fostered by Joseph.

Heru/Horus didn't have a foster-father
touregypt.net...

3. Horus was of royal descent. Jesus was of royal descent.

Horus was the son of the first gods. Not royalty.

4. Horus birth accompanied by three solar deities [star gazers] who followed by the morning star of Sirius bearing gifts. Jesus birth accompanied by three wise men [Zoroastrian star gazers] who followed by a star “in the east” bearing gifts.

Not according to the Delta Cycle (oldest complete texts of the Horus myth.

5. The birth of Horus announced by angels. The birth of Jesus announced by angels.

Hardly. Isis gave birth to him in secret (see the above pages)

6. Herut tried to murder the infant Horus. Herod slaughtered every first born in an attempt to kill Jesus the forthcoming messiah.

Set and his minions, the snakes, tried to murder Horus from the time he was born until he was grown. (BTW, the "slaughter of the innocents" never happened. There's no graveyards full of Jewish male infants killed at the same time period in either reign of Herod, and no legal records of this and no revolts associated with it.)

7. Horus is baptized at age 30 by Anup the Baptiser at a river. Jesus is baptized at age 30 by John the Baptist at a river.

Horus took his place as an adult as soon as he was able. Baptism is a Christian tradition... Egyptians had no such tradition.

8. Horus resists temptation by the evil Sut [Sut was to be the precursor for the Hebrew Satan] on a high mountain. Jesus resists temptation by Satan on a high mountain.

Oh dearie dear. How shall I put this one... hmmm... They have a big battle (several) and then (depending on the text) Horus seduces Set or Set seduces Horus (yes, homosexuality among the gods.) Isis puts Set's semen on lettuce which is then fed to Set (by Horus) and Set becomes pregnant by Horus.
www.marysia.com...

That's kind of the extreme Readers' Digest version. I suggest looking up the longer version.

9. Horus had 12 followers. Jesus had 12 disciples.

Horus was a god (and one of the oldest) and had millions of followers.

10. Horus performed miracles like healing the sick and walking on water. Jesus performed miracles like healing the sick and walking on water.

Horus was never invoked to heal the sick, nor did he heal the sick. He flew... he didn't walk on water.

11. Horus raised someone from the grave [his father Osiris] Jesus raised Lazarus [notice the name similarity] from the grave. Lazarus is short for Elasarus - the “us” on the end is romanized. Elasarus was derived from “El-Asar” which was the name given to Osiris.

Oyyyyyyyyy. Actually, it was Isis who ressurected Osiris. Horus avenged him:
www.marysia.com...

12. Horus was buried and resurrected in the city of Anu. The place Bethany mentioned in John was a derivative of the words “Bet” and “Anu” which translates “the house of Anu”. The ‘y’ on the end of bethany is interchangeable with the letter ‘u’.

Newsflash: Horus isn't dead.

13. Horus was killed by crucifixtion. Jesus was crucified.

14. Horus was accompanied by two thieves at the crucifixtion. Jesus was crucified with two thieves.

15. Horus was buried in a tomb at Anu. Jesus was buried in a tomb located in Bethany [Bet-Anu].

16. Horus was resurrected after 3 days. Jesus was “said” to resurrected after over a period of three days.

See above. Horus never died.

17. The resurrection of Horus was announced by three women. The resurrection of Jesus was announced by three women.

Ditto.

18. Horus was given the titel KRST which means “anointed one” Jesus was given the title Christ [Christos] meaning “anointed one”

I'm sort of speechless at that one. But... no.

Sorry to be so rough on the material, but it really is invented scholarship.

The Romans did adopt and blend the myths of Mary and of Isis, and there's some similarities between them:
en.wikipedia.org...

So... bottom line... although I'm sympatheti cto the claim of Jesus as being strictly a mythic figure, the parallels between Jesus and Horus were invented (shamefully) by someone in the late 20th century and should not be taken seriously.

Remember: Always go to the Original Sources on the documents.


[edit on 7-7-2007 by Byrd]

I reached my post limit, so Ill just say it here, I found the above statements to be very helpful in my understanding, especially when it came to the Zeitgeist. I have come to believe that though we cannot prove religion right or wrong, we can know that the Zeitgeist does not disprove it and is merely false information by those ignorant enough to believe that they could fool the people. But even I am beginning to think that they were successful in this ploy.

i do believe christianity and other religions are derived from pagan religions and stories but i really dont understand where they got the jesus and horus comparisons. i love the opening line by jordan maxwell ....."the religous institutions of this world are at the bottmom of the dirt"

Every time somebody tries to refute the Zeitgeist movie they always go after the religious aspect which can neither be proven nor disproved. I have yet to see on any blog post website or otherwise the 911 or federal reserve which in my opinion should outrage us all. Is this how your Jesus would want us to live??????? Like the quote in the movie " I don't know what god is, but I what he isn't. Which one of your religions is right. Well I say it doesn't matter. Focus on the parts of the video that can be proven (like the death of how many people over money, greed, religion, corruption). Are you going to wait for Jesus to come down from heaven and save you or are you going to stop being weak and take action yourselves. If we are to ever see world peace WE need to work out these problems ourselves. If we cannot coexist on earth, if we let children starve, innocent people suffer and die and let the elite enjoy the spoils of life while the rest of us have to work 80 hours a week just to scrape by, how could we coexist in the heavens above. I don't know any more about god than any of you and you do not know any more than me. If you think you do you are full of it. You dare fathom the infinite universe. Humans can not even begin to comprehend. We are no longer cave men we know enough about the universe to know only god can make something from nothing and that is why i BELIEVE in God. Just not your god. My god has know use for brainwashing or money, killing, war, or any of that.
We need to worry about the other parts of the video. Your free to worship whoever, or whatever you want. So go do it and stop pretending to think you know god personally. Until your god comes to save you I guess you religious idiots are going to be victims of all the horrible things i've listed above. WHAT ABOUT 911 PEOPLE???? Some one please refute this part of the video so we can sleep at night. And by the way the video is 100% accurate about 911 and the feds. And yes I also believe in the USA constitution and I am a real american. If Jesus is so great than you do not need to worry what others say because your faith is so strong right. I'm more worried about my kid who i love more than anything having to grow up in an oppressed corrupt world of greed, war murder. and don't blame it on satan either because its PEOPLE doing theese things and their not under the influence of anything other than their own selfish desires. Wake up people and lets unite like christians and make this world a better place for all. Thats what the guy who made this video intended and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. Anyone have any better ideas than the ones presented in this video? I'd sure like to hear them. I did mean to offend some people cause we got to save ourselves and our children. Stop thinking about religios mumble jumble and start embraceing real world solutions. The only thing we as people all agree on is the need for money. Perhaps we should embrace money as our god in an effort towards worl peace.

We are here and now. Open your minds. Discussing without anger and bias. Whats wrong with doing what is right ......isnt that what religion is? Guiding us and lifting us, telling us a stories of how things could or should be and not to crush or seek an agenda. If God is real and as a people we shunned religion, I dont think he/she would be angry about us choosing the alternative. After all The Zeitgeist philosophy is not such an awful thing. We are one family not just a collection of families seeing other families(religions) as outsiders.

Religion has been around along time. Do you think the world is a better place because of it? War has been fought over religion. People have died over religion. Is that the theology you want to prepetuate?

WE CAN fix this............