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What constitutes proof

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posted on Sep, 21 2007 @ 04:04 PM
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I hear proof, being thrown around a lot on these threads. I have a degree in physics and a strong science background. Scientific proof is something that can be verified and tested. While many people claim to have personal experiences, and I do believe that happens, it is not proof. I have said before, I envy these people and wish I could have experiences like that. Even if I did, I could not come here claiming that is proof of anything. While I might know it to be true, I can not prove it is. I would not expect anyone to just take my word for it without some sort of evidence. George Bush and half the intelligence officers said there WMD in Iraq. That did not make it a fact. Because some retired army colonel claims something, it does not make it a fact. You can choose to believe, or not believe, but please do not state it is a known fact, just because you choose to believe it. I do believe in aliens, but I would never claim to have proof of their existence. Several posts attack the scientific community because they claim we tear up their theories because we choose not to believe them. I will tell you right now, they get torn up because a lot of them need work. It's how science works. You can not post something that is not proven, and expect everyone to just go with it. ALL theories undergo this treatment. Instead of complaining about how "scientists" destroy your theories, use the input to build a stronger theory. I have written several theories on quantum gravity and have had them torn to shreds. I use that input to correct my mistakes and build a stronger theory. Not whine about it. Feel lucky there are people in the scientific community who take some of this seriously, and take the time to scrutinize your theories, and point out errors. Were all trying to achieve the same goal. It makes for a stronger case when we have theories that can stand up to a little questioning, and don't fall apart at the seams. If everyone wants to make theories, expect them to be treated like theories. They are going to be questioned. Now that I am done ranting, I would like to know if anyone actually does have any real proof of aliens? Not... I am Mr. so and so and heres my story... I mean actual proof. Also, I by no means consider myself an expert, and do not assume to be smarter then anyone else here... ive been shown up by high school drop outs on some theories. However if anyone wants to run something by me they think is credible and do not mind a little peer review... go for it. I just really want to get the point across, if you want science to take some of this more seriously... you have to play by the rules. Your going to be questioned, it's not a personal attack, it's how science works. Use it to rebuild your theory to make it stronger. Many scientists do believe, and are searching for proof. Anyone who thinks they have something worthwhile, feel free to post it here.




posted on Sep, 21 2007 @ 04:22 PM
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proof...subjective.

I suppose its like Thomas in the New Testament Bible.
"Lord let me put my finger in your wounds and I will believe."

Thats kind of the proof I would look for - and still Im not sure thats good enough for somethings. Some people are just hard to please.


Peace

dAlen



posted on Sep, 21 2007 @ 04:42 PM
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I have heard this arguement for years.
You are forgetting the societal element to proof.

Technically nothing is proved, because we don't know what we don't know. Even your scientific proofs rely on some accepted assumptions.

These assumptions are things that are built of other assumptions.

for instance x = y y = z so x = z a very basic mathamatical idea. and because everyone accepts it and it has always worked when tested it is considered valid. What if in reality, a new reality that we never really realized all items are in constant flux so much that x actually has two states simultaneously. I am making this up, but if x had 2 values at once this equasion could fail, then all the accepted math would come tumbling down. note that varibles of x are the only ones that can have this, this shatters other assumptions since we probally thought abstract varibles were all the same and now know they are not.

But because nobody has ever experianced this happening they take it on faith and call it proof. They believe it to be true, they have faith as the praise the great postulations that hold the world of their math together.

Ok I hope you get my point, your science really is a group of people getting together and deciding what is proved and what is not based on what they have show through experiment, which is guess what, things they experianced.

The one thing they have is nobody has claimed them wrong, like you claim some things I call proof wrong. If me, just me by myself said that dual states existed then you no longer have conscences and you must choose to believe either me, or 5,999,999,999 other people, so your proved math would still be a choice of who you believe.

You would then ask me to show you then, well I ask you show me that the spiritual world that I have proved to exist does not exist.

pleasure to meet you sir, and welcome to my reality



posted on Sep, 21 2007 @ 04:44 PM
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ah Redge 777 - you bring up some interesting points (i think, its getting quite late and I can barely keep my eyes open.)

Yes, the matter is perspective...in truth, that is what it boils down to isnt it?

Peace

dAlen



posted on Sep, 21 2007 @ 04:49 PM
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Proof: I observe the actual phenomemon using my own senses. Not a picture, not a video, and not a written account, though I would give a lot of weight to a firsthand account by someone I know and trust.

I won't completely discount photographic or digital evidence, it's just that technological advances have made it fairly easy to counterfeit these things and I lack the training to discern the differences between what is real and what is fake.

While an argument could be made that even one's senses are unreliable and therefore wouldn't constitute proof, or that different but equally legitimate realities exist between different individuals and therefore proof is subjective, that's a subject for metaphysicists.

I suspect or hypothesize about much on this board, but am severely lacking in "proof" in almost all cases.

Does that make me a skeptic? Dunno. Probably.



posted on Sep, 21 2007 @ 05:32 PM
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Real verifiable proof on a net board is laughable. It can't be done. Len's flare, venus, artifact, CGI are all appropriate skepticisms.



posted on Sep, 21 2007 @ 05:37 PM
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This board is all about speculation... and that is wonderful. There is a hugegap between speculation and fact though. I speculate on here all the time. Too many people though are taking things for facts that aren't proven facts. All this does it make it harder to wade through the increasing garbage on here to find real facts. Everyone is entitled to beliefs. I know all mine can't be proven. I am a catholic, but at no time claim it is a fact jesus existed. Do i believe it, yes. But i have no evidence. Belief does not constitute fact. I cant count how many people message me its a fact that mr. so and so works with aliens. No it's not. x=yy=z so x=z? ... watch... 4=2.2=4 4=4 or 25=5.5=25 25=25, and so on...I proved it. Now to test this proof someone tries to discredit it. Someone said what if x was 2 numbers at once, it wouldn't work. In reply... your correct, if X was two numbers at once it would not work. However that would require 3=5 to be true. 3 does not equal 5 so X can not be two numbers. Welcome to real science... this is how it works. I didn't just say it works because i believe it does, I "proved" it.



[edit on 21-9-2007 by b309302]



posted on Sep, 21 2007 @ 06:20 PM
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By the way, technically your right we don't know what we don't know. However, that doesn't mean its a free for all and everything is true. I'm fairly sure invisible unicorns aren't flying around outside, however we don't know that it's not. You can use that argument if you want...but if we explore every possible avenue and scinerio available we would still be in the stone age. Progress is made by building on facts and extrapolating the most plausible avenue for advancment from those facts, not checking every dead end to make sure it leads nowhere. We can speculate about invisible unicorns and things like this if you like all day long, but personally I would rather take what are accepted facts and come up with something more tangible. Like you said we don't know what we don't know... so your call which way you want to go... speculation over unproven unicorns, or use actual facts to try and find the most pluasible answer...



[edit on 21-9-2007 by b309302]

[edit on 21-9-2007 by b309302]



posted on Sep, 21 2007 @ 08:48 PM
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If it's proof of ET life ..nothing can or will ,until the day the whole world have a spacecraft/s over every major city of the world ..with of course the classic mothership half the size of earth between the moon and earth.

Then there would still be people who believe it's an illusion or that 3D effect (forgot the name) being done by the government/military and whomever we can blame.

Myself like numerous others "claim" we have seen UFO's ,if these things were piloted by man or alien i cannot say ,i have pictures as others do of them but nothing to prove ET life.

We who witnessed such things from UFO's to ghosts can only believe that we have seen it,we cannot convince anyone no matter how hard we try,so we sit back because skeptics who have not witnessed it will make a fool of you if you insist & yet there are skeptics who really do their job extremely well but everyone has become experts the last few months.

Well let us not forget the "great" hoaxes that made so many more skeptical..thanks Haiti to mention one.

We TELL ourselves on a daily basis seeing something on news ,be it war,disasters or our unnatural way of life "I cannot believe what i am seeing or hearing" ..we cannot admit to ourselves the way we screwed up the world or how screwed up we are in treating each other.

Denial is human nature ,we cannot believe in miracles if it did not happen to us and if we do we believe for only that long.How can i prove i had cancer & it just disappeared even if i have all my medical records..someone will find a scientific explanation.

I really don't care to prove,Greys can land in my backyard,i can record them on dvd cam,record the whole close encounter ,then post it ..Who Will Believe Me? All we need is to believe ourselves and be honest with ourselves and the ones you trust..we don't need to prove nothing to "some" who already chose not to believe.



posted on Sep, 21 2007 @ 09:16 PM
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Proof is hard. I've had the pleasure of seeing 3 "things" in my lifetime I can not explain. I can rationalize them, I tell myself what I think I saw, this doesn't eliminate the fact in my mind of what I saw. How would I prove it to anyone else if I even have internal arguments over this.

Even if a alien craft landed on the White House lawn and aliens got out to take samples of the ground, with the whole adventure being broadcast live on all network news; people would claim it was false.

I don't see a simple answer.



posted on Sep, 21 2007 @ 09:29 PM
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Originally posted by hinky
Proof is hard.

Even if a alien craft landed on the White House lawn and aliens got out to take samples of the ground, with the whole adventure being broadcast live on all network news; people would claim it was false.

I don't see a simple answer.


Exactly what i was trying to say ..i agree with you 100%



posted on Sep, 22 2007 @ 05:08 AM
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Originally posted by hinky
Proof is hard. I've had the pleasure of seeing 3 "things" in my lifetime I can not explain. I can rationalize them, I tell myself what I think I saw, this doesn't eliminate the fact in my mind of what I saw. How would I prove it to anyone else if I even have internal arguments over this.

Even if a alien craft landed on the White House lawn and aliens got out to take samples of the ground, with the whole adventure being broadcast live on all network news; people would claim it was false.

I don't see a simple answer.


Exactly


Those same aliens could walk up to those people claiming it all to be fake and take them on a trip into space. While they're in space the skeptics would sit there looking bored and say it is mass hullicination and it's all in their heads.

When I see people on here claiming they've seen UFO's or anything else, this is why I don't nag them to death for proof. Unless you got a piece of alien DNA or a UFO sitting on your lawn you can't actually prove anything to anyone. Even then, there's these hardcore skeptics that would still need more proof because they just can't let go of what they believe to be true. A lot of them can't stand to be proven wrong and a small chunk are members of this site.

I saw a UFO a few years ago. It wasn't a test craft, weather balloon, meteor or swamp gas. This thing was huge and moved very fast. This couldn't have been any craft made using any technology on Earth. I know what I saw. Others around me saw it as well and people even called into Coast to Coast AM about it the next night who lived across the river from me in Cincinnati, Ohio. I know what I saw and that's enough proof for me. I don't worry about having to prove it to anyone else.



posted on Sep, 22 2007 @ 10:30 AM
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Proof of what we are discussing here would have to constitute of common knowledge, knowledge that could be shared and experienced by all. No one has to provide evidence that computers or cars or dinner plates exist because nearly everybody uses, sees or will use or see these objects -common knowledge, a knowledge shared by a majority of us on this planet.

The same would have to persist for UFOs and nonterrestrial life. An everyday object that cant be disputed any longer. Now on an individual basis proof can be very subjective but individual proof does very little for the bigger picture to further the search for the any truth of UFOs and ET life. Individual evidence and proof is isolationist by nature and it is nearly impossible to transfer that knowledge in a coherant, believable way to the mass public and have it become common knowledge.

Its going to have to take something very big and very public to change the global publics view on what this very tiny group here, to one degree or another, think to be very real. There may be 500 of us or so who consistently post here with beliefs one way or another about this phenomena but in the big picture we dont exist to the rest of the world or if we do we are an annoyance, a one off, something to joke about at a party. If you collect all of us "UFO nuts" together from around the world, in a world of 6.2 billion people, for all practical purpoes we are not even here. ET and UFOs are entertainment for the masses.



posted on Sep, 22 2007 @ 12:48 PM
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Originally posted by nightmare_david
Those same aliens could walk up to those people claiming it all to be fake and take them on a trip into space. While they're in space the skeptics would sit there looking bored and say it is mass hullicination and it's all in their heads.


You're confusing skeptics with people with a fixed mindset. Aliens landing on the White House lawn and reported by multiple media would actually be proof for almost every skeptic out there.



posted on Sep, 22 2007 @ 12:57 PM
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The ironic thing I see is that many skeptics that demand "proof" of extraterrestrials, readily accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior, believe in angels and demons, Satan, Heaven and Hell, On Faith. Accepeting the Bible as the unquestionable word of God.

See the dilemma and the hypocrisy here?


Demanding Proof from others but blindly accepting an ideology, religion on faith. Typical though. [edit on 22-9-2007 by whaaa]

[edit on 22-9-2007 by whaaa]



posted on Sep, 22 2007 @ 03:10 PM
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Alien Lawyers. Once that happens then there will be no denying proof.



posted on Sep, 22 2007 @ 03:28 PM
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It is very difficult to convince a hardcore skeptic of the alien presence. No amount of photos, witness testimonies, documents or videos will convince a hardcore skeptic, unless of course they see it on CNN. Personally, I believe the government has been keeping the ET secret for many years and they'll probably never reveal the truth, disclosure will most likely come from the horse's mouth. The only true way to make a believer out of a skeptic is to experience physical contact. So, what constitutes for proof of ET's? In my opinion, experience.



posted on Sep, 22 2007 @ 06:00 PM
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Originally posted by Indellkoffer

Originally posted by nightmare_david
Those same aliens could walk up to those people claiming it all to be fake and take them on a trip into space. While they're in space the skeptics would sit there looking bored and say it is mass hullicination and it's all in their heads.


You're confusing skeptics with people with a fixed mindset. Aliens landing on the White House lawn and reported by multiple media would actually be proof for almost every skeptic out there.


I was actually referring to those skeptics that are on here with that mindset. They could give birth to an alien and still not believe it.

I'm talking about the people on here who feel the need to ridicule anyone on here who has had an experience. They feel the need to come into threads and attack instead of trying to have an open conversation. All because they can't admit they might be wrong about something. Skeptics and people with a fixed mindset both do it and do it constantly as if it's their job.

Now I'm not saying these people are dis-info agents or anything. Just that maybe these people should take the time they spend on here attacking others and actually research the subjects they attack. Most of them rarely research anything. They'd just rather argue.



posted on Sep, 22 2007 @ 06:49 PM
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Originally posted by Indellkoffer
You're confusing skeptics with people with a fixed mindset. Aliens landing on the White House lawn and reported by multiple media would actually be proof for almost every skeptic out there.


Hi There ,

As you have seen on boards you get skeptics that would do some research even into subjects the average have written off ..though they debunk it in the end it counts that they acknowledge all matters.

Then you get those skeptics that have debunked everything & anything by reading a header ..those who debunk no matter what proof people deliver,they debunk subjects out of habit/choice ..or just because they do not believe.

So the latter skeptic says (s)he is a skeptic/scholar and such ,but have no inclination from the get go on a subject to read into it as they have already debunked it in their minds.

Stating you are a skeptic says you are "hardcore" in believing such things, but you will do to the best of you ability to read,study & look in on subjects of matter before giving a reason ..I read way too many times on first posts from skeptics "This is BS ,please try harder" ..and not getting the reason why they claim that.

That is the issue of The White House Lawn ..you can show these "so called" skeptics full proof on international tv and there will be someone who claims it was done by 3D/CGI or that project that beams a "laser show" (cannot remember that name ever,i apologize).

The end result ..there will be those who will not believe even if they have been abducted ..there will be a scientific explanation for them.

We have this great huge unimaginable size of a Universe and some do not wish to see pass that than earth...and we cannot change their views/belief.

Freewill



posted on Sep, 23 2007 @ 11:52 AM
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Originally posted by b309302
. x=yy=z so x=z? ... watch... 4=2.2=4 4=4 or 25=5.5=25 25=25, and so on...I proved it. Now to test this proof someone tries to discredit it. Someone said what if x was 2 numbers at once, it wouldn't work. In reply... your correct, if X was two numbers at once it would not work. However that would require 3=5 to be true. 3 does not equal 5 so X can not be two numbers. Welcome to real science... this is how it works. I didn't just say it works because i believe it does, I "proved" it.

[edit on 21-9-2007 by b309302]


how do you know 3 does not equal 5, because it has been tested by you and you saw it not be true, you also heard others say that 3 != 5 and you trust that source. There could be something you don't know, never been told and never experianced that proves 3 = 5. You proved your first assumption with another assumption. try again. you only proved it because of assumptions. remember I am talking about a hypothetical, dont tell anyone, but I know 3 != 5



Originally posted by b309302
By the way, technically your right we don't know what we don't know. However, that doesn't mean its a free for all and everything is true.
so true, actually what I am saying is nothing is true. But I did have a point, and it was not to critisize science, I like science, it was that some people have a different set of experiance they base what is true on.

For instance if the Matrix was true, everyone in the Matrix would call Neo crazy. But he wouldn't be. a more real example is how people who have a different idea are immedetly dismissed until they can show it in a language others accept, basically give them a set of experiance that makes them agree because they have tied it to beliefs they already have. There are some things I know, but can not prove to others because our starting postulations are different, and everything starts with some postulation of an assumed reality.
[edit on 23-9-2007 by Redge777]

[edit on 23-9-2007 by Redge777]



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