War on a Global Scale - will you fight or succumb.

reply to post by Tinhatman


Exactly.

I will protect the well being of my loved ones first and foremost, followed by my own welfare. If I was forced to take it any further than that, or at least to the extent of choosing sides between what and who I think is in the wrong... I can't necessarily say I would be fighting for my country.


This is hypothetically why being a gun owner is important. If it ever came down to this.. Government trying to rush my block..well they are going to have a terrible, horrible, no good, very bad day due to missing limbs and collapsed lungs. I'm not afraid, either. I think war is very compatible with our inherent nature.

It's just important to have truth in your justifications for participating in something like this. Life is beautiful and taking it should be the very last resort for any human being. If ever it was to become a kill or kill situation, we should put as much energy into establishing order as much as we put into survival.

fweshcawfee,
I think your opinion regarding his legitimacy is spot on !

The US has forces on the ground in other area's of the world besides Iraq and afghanistan.



Are these the countries that we don't know about ?

Now I'll answer your theoretical question as to whether I would fight if my country was invaded? Of course I would. I believe all Americans should protect their countries from all enemies both foreign and domestic. I'd have to fight as I refuse to grow a beard and wear a table cloth on my head. No offense it's just a quirk. I don't look good in checkers.

Will the US be taken over by muslim extemists? NOPE. And here's why:
1. We have the most advanced military in the world.
2. Civilian americans would not allow a rogue state to gain a foothold in our country.
3. Canada boarders our country and would be the next logical target so they would be sending troops like there was no tomorrow.
4. There would be Australian and British troops on the ground in the US ASAP to help.
5. The rogue country would be glowing and glass like within minutes. If your really are part of an inner circle, you know this is true as Cheney has mentioned that he wants to use tactical nukes on Iran RIGHT NOW.

As to your credibility. I simply don't believe you are who you say you are for a number of reasons.

Now the whole cut and run thing in Iraq.
I think we must leave Iraq and the sooner the better. I also believe doing so will cause massive destabilization in the region. The problem is that this administration does not understand how to run the war in Iraq so winning the war is not possible. The only thing that will happen is, more good men and women will die while the current administration continues with the plan of keep doing what we were doing before even if it doesn't work.

In a nutshell, if you can't win, you go home. For us to win in Iraq, massive changes would need to be implemented.



[edit on 23-9-2007 by asala]

reply to post by 19DCW71


How can you not see this as coming off as racist?

BTW, umm ... to stick to your own theory, Native American Indians were put in this country by G-d ... so, we have destroyed his plan and we are all trespassing on the way he divided out the lands ... so ... I say to you, go back where you came from ... Europe? Asia? South America? Australia? Africa? I doubt Antarctica ... but you are definitely not a Native American by your heritage!

You sir (or madame) are also a 'mixed mutt' ... do you not see that?

If you think your ideals as a Christian have been diluted, then, maybe you should seriously read your Bible a few times over. I think you missed the point. J-sus = love, compassion. Live by example, befriend (make friends) with all kinds. If you are slapped on the cheek, turn the other for a slapping, do not respond with violence or hate. Those are some basics, but, I can't do all the work for you. Start by reading an easy Bible, like, The Living Bible ... maybe the one for students. Then, switch to a bit tougher one, like, Old King James version. Then, switch to one that is based more off the ancient Hebrew and Greek text ... The Complete Jewish Bible (which has the New Testament in it) ... yes, your Christian G-d is the Jewish G-d as well. Enlighten yourself to your own religion before you spew off hate in G-d's name ... I doubt He likes that very much.

Oh, and ... before you start shooting, I would suggest you follow the bloodline of Abraham ... wouldn't want you shooting any of G-d's chosen ones, and I don't think you would want to either, right? You may realize that a lot of the fighting is a sibling rivalry ... though more of the Caine and Abel type sadly. But, for G-d's Revelation to happen, all of G-d's chosen ones must come together ... so, we have a bit more time, I suggest you spend that time reading and praying for understanding of the true meaning of His word. I know I understood a lot more than you currently do my first time reading it through for myself more than a decade ago. You see, reading it gets your more than just listening to the preacher or claiming that you are a Christian. I guess that is why I have no problems loving all of nature, mankind, and the universe. It is all beautiful in its own ways ... and all people are truly the same, YOU create the differences and divisions, not G-d, G-d made a promise to Abraham and his descendants (Old Testament or Old Covenant), and a promise to all mankind (New Testament or New Covenant). I do hope you understand His Word, since you wish to use it for your arguments ... I would not care for you to misuse His works to further an agenda that He never claimed nor supported.


And that last quote you put there, maybe you should think about it ... self-control ... it is a good thing.



For the OP ... I will defend my family and loved ones. What more is there to do in life but defend those who you care most about? I will not fight a false war. I will not become part of the corruption. I was honestly offered a intelligence position in any division of the military (navy, air force, army), from my ASVAB and a test I took for 'fun' while a friend was signing up. I told them my family wished for me not to serve, since, I am an only child. I am glad I didn't, because the state of things, I would have some major moral issues vs duty going on. I am one to stick with my morals more than do what the guy with the stick tells me to do. Beat me, but you will never break me ... I put myself through more pain than you could ever present to me.

I will fight for my freedoms, when the time comes, against ANY oppressor. I hope you all will do the same, we count on each other to defend ourselves from corruption and tyranny ... just wake up when the time comes and stand up for what is right for you and your loved ones. Don't allow things to happen that you wouldn't want to happen to you and those you care for.

I think by at least the next decade, we will see something amazingly stupid come to fruition in the world. Who will be the one to commit the atrocity? Who will be blamed? Who will be the victor? Who is the real evil? It is like a bloody soap opera, but the suspense isn't killing me ... though innocents are dieing.

I'm sick and tired of hearing all this incoherent bible garble to justify what they want or to attack others where they don't want. This includes Christians, Jews, and Islam.

I'm an Atheist and you can bet your fickle little penny that I will fight against any encroachment upon my civilization. Science has brought us too far to fall back a couple of thousand years because of a piece of paper written by a bunch of old mystified kooks. I work under the knowledge given to us through western society.

Nobody should and nobody CAN take that away. I don't want humanity to be debating if the world is round or not come 200 years from now.

Originally posted by Donoso
I'm sick and tired of hearing all this incoherent bible garble to justify what they want or to attack others where they don't want. This includes Christians, Jews, and Islam.

I'm an Atheist and you can bet your fickle little penny that I will fight against any encroachment upon my civilization. Science has brought us too far to fall back a couple of thousand years because of a piece of paper written by a bunch of old mystified kooks. I work under the knowledge given to us through western society.

Nobody should and nobody CAN take that away. I don't want humanity to be debating if the world is round or not come 200 years from now.

Pretty much the end all, be all...

reply to post by downtown436


Man somebody must have cut your head off and put it up your butt. You are absolutely crazy man!

reply to post by DeadFlagBlues


Unfortunately, if it comes to that point. There's nothing else to do but fight. If there's a truthfully hopeful cause for another solution that aims for far less casualty, that's where I will be.

Do western governments want that to be the case? No, especially not the U.S. Ever since 1950 our economy has been built by war. Do the radicals want that to be the case? No. They prosper off war just the same.

In reality: Neither is significantly better. But while the U.S (and its allies) claims to be killing said radicals. The radicals themselves have already declared war upon civilians and the military. While one can debate (and I would agree) that the U.S has started to remove our right to due process and that is in itself a dreadful turn events... Well, I'll let this one end on that note.

reply to post by crisko


In order to answer your question the person would have to agree with you. I am tired of hearing "killing everyone that doesnt agree with me" is the only damn way to go. If humans cant figure out a better way we are #ed. Plain and simple, no one will "win".

reply to post by crisko


I believe you. I know people don't want to hear it, but it's true. We are so sheltered and priviledged here in America that we cannot comprehend the idea of living in the "real" world.

Compared to life in most of the world, American life is an anomaly. If you want to continue experiencing it, you better be prepared to defend it. Everyone is watching us, and a lot of people who are not from here (and even some who are here) are pissed off at our existence and want to knock us down.

What most middle-class people don't understand is that the rich people in America already know what's going on. They just won't tell you. So it's every man for himself. That's how it is here. We don't have a unified culture that binds us, and there is too much misunderstanding, fear and hatred amongst our own people.

If America falls, the Dark Ages will return. Lawlessness, struggle and poverty will return. We don't know these things because our minds from birth were exposed to priviledge. We cannot comprehend oppression. I'm not talking about not being able to pay the credit card bills or mortgage bill, or being discriminated against...I mean REAL OPPRESSION.

I have a question...

While I do believe that the US govt, and other govt.s very similar do have a good democracy, where people are relatively free to do what they want, i still feel that the US dumbs down it's own people.

Why would i want to fight to protect a country that hides things like the existence of ETs?
Why would i want to fight for a country that is corporately corrupt?
Why would i want to fight for a country that tries to push its own views on other countries by invasion?
Why would i want to fight for a country that stages terrorist attacks upon itself and hides from the public with news of OJ and Paris Hilton?

Would I fight?
Yes. But not for America.
A part of me wants something to come, something that will open the eyes of many people. Our civilization needs saving.
I would fight, but I would fight for a different cause. One for humanity. I would fight against the terror of the third world countries that might attack us, as i would fight against the corruption of my own govt. The time has come that we fight on two fronts. against the corrupt, and against the inhumane. Our best chance will be when both are at their weakest points.

As would most of the other native born Americans, I would defend my homestead to the death.

Will you fight or succumb I feel is generally not the real question to even ask.

The question is - will you be at a point of control wherein you have no other choice?

We now live under an illusion of freedom that is really the ultimate of what may be termed an NWO society where you have one central control or command paving the way for the taxpayer to follow.

All the money and resource in the one pot pushes us farther ahead.

So to diverge a little - the question of how threatened we are, how at risk we are, and this war on terror that faces us.

It is being fabricated as we speak. The Trans Arabian pipelines begin in less than a month or so. Why ? To divert the disaster of the straight of hormuz being blocked in a large scale war with Iran.

Which wont just be with Iran but other entities of the middle east.

So war is already set. What is required now is the growing convincing story that muslims hate us. That not all muslims, of course, we are not racist people, but some, some of them control and influence the rest of them and they wish to kill us.

Hmmmm

Name me one muslim power in this country that has the ability to wage war overseas, I mean war, one that has the ability to invade and occupy say central europe or the USA even.

Pakistan ? Nope
Phillipines? Nope
Iran ? Nope
Iran Iraq Afghanistan and pakistan together with help from china and russia even maybe possibly ? Nope

The short change fact is that the muslim world is behind the times of change and some of its older and more valiant cultures need to be removed.

Some have truly converted to our will our way and our needs and will invest heavily in the Nasdaq and London Stock Exchange. No doubt even eventually own them!

So when finally it comes time to prove to us how bad these people really are and we lose more innocents in the worst act of terror ever seen on earth in a flash and a big bang

The real question is

Will you suppport your benefactors? Will you do the will of those who give you your time your freedom your leisure and your 3 for 1 offers at the local hypermarkets

Will you be so utterly convinced that your way of life is threatened that will justify you with the right and will to go forth and anhiliate whatever stands in its way ?

Will you really have any choice at all ?


We already did it to africa - we crippled them and made sure they follow our will, or starve. And now we hold music festivals and comedy events and phone in to relieve our guilt and feel better we donated some monies to help those poor others. What fine people we are indeed.

The time is soon coming for the benefactors of our ambitions to exert their control over yet another quarter of this earth.

The best way to predict the future has always been and always will be, to invent it.

Does it really matter what the motive is that drives a group of people to conquer us? Since we became a country religion has had little to do with our wars. In the last 80 years both Communism and Nazism had nothing to do with religion, but they both wanted to take our way of life from us. If the next struggle is against radical Islam their reasons really mean nothing for just wanting to either change us or kill us is all that matters.

When you look at the worst killings and genocides in the planets history the ones that lacked religion has caused the most harm. The Christian Crusades is small potatoes compared to the top 20. Also don’t be fooled in thinking that religion is the reason for radical Islam. The Islam part is just their vehicle that they choose to use, but their true motives have little to do with religion too.

I been in almost every US conflit since 1980 so I guess I can be in another.




[edit on 22-9-2007 by Xtrozero]

reply to post by FreeThinkerIdealist


I will go back to where I come from. For starters I was Born here,so "I'm Back"

If you mean go back to where my ancestors come from then that's a different story.

I know my history of native America, I have read the bible and there's one thing you should know.This country (modern day America) only exists because of my ancestors

My ideals as a Christian were very passive at one time until the ideals of this government have bereaved me of my Christian values.(ROMANS 7:7-25)

As far as your cocky sarcastic attitude, you know what to do.

Here's a few not so passive examples of our God. I say our God because I believe you to be Jewish by the way you don't pronounce your O in "G-D"
which would make him "ours" and I know my Gods a Jew

Jeremiah(25:15) Daniel(11-36) Amos(2:4) John(3:36) Romans(1:18)

As for as turning the other cheek.I'm human and human nature is to protect ones self and family. If I was born the son of God knowing I was then it wouldn't be so hard now would it?

If our loving God wants to send me to hell for protecting the ONLY people who mean something to me then I will accept it like a man and with a smile.

If you read the bible and believe all of it your a fool. Catholocism-Priests can't marry?? Nowhere in the bible does it say that.Those were pauls own words because he belived he could not entirely devote himself to God if he was trying to also give his love to a woman.I'm sure if Paul knew priests were gonna gang rape little boys,he would've worded it a little differently.

I have more self control than you’ll ever know, because if I didn’t, those friends you talk of making would be history.Instead I turned the other cheek and walked away.Because you forgive doesn’t mean forget and associate.Judge a person by their actions (fruits) If the fruit is rotten are you going to eat it??Would you hang out w/pedophiles and murderers?? Yes...we are to judge just not judge as to put yourself on a pedestal to make you feel as if you’re a better person than anyone.Which I never claimed to be.If you knew me before you would now understand how far I’ve come.

I have disassociated myself from anybody simply for the fact that humans are selfish, self centered and greedy. You think you have friends? Try an experiment. Have the woman you love(unless she's really ugly) hit on your friend when he thinks your not around and see what his friendly reactions are (Sure he’s not gonna be thinking of you) then come back and tell me about befriending people.
And if we are all from the same parents, I’m banging my sister not my wife.

Far as your image is concerned of the American flag.It represents the mark of the beast. (Rev 13:16-18)
Which unfortunately is who our Gov't is.

Don't try and school me on the bible. I've probably forgotten more than you'll ever know!!!!!

reply to post by FreeThinkerIdealist


And If you opened your eyes you would see that I never said I hated anyone (spew off hate In God's name). I'm just pointing out the reality of what IS.

Turn the other cheek??? If someone walked up to you and slapped you in our mug,you're gonna sit there and tell me you wouldn't tryto defend yourself ?

Tell me yes and I will let you know that you are either the biggest Liar or Scared to death!!!

No man or woman forthat matter is gona let sombody smack the piss out of them ad endure it out of love.

So get a grip and stop self gloating about your big tough Military endeavors you turn downed.

Your Quote"I was honestly offered a intelligence position in any division of the military (navy, air force, army), from my ASVAB and a test I took for 'fun' while a friend was signing up. I told them my family wished for me not to serve, since, I am an only child. I am glad I didn't, because the state of things, I would have some major moral issues vs duty going on. I am one to stick with my morals more than do what the guy with the stick tells me to do. Beat me, but you will never break me ... I put myself through more pain than you could ever present to me."

1st of all what Idiot would take the test if he NEVER had any intentions on joining???

2nd if you were offered intelligence in any division you wouldn't of had to worry about being an only child considering you wouldn't of ever been on the physical battle field in any danger.

3rd as for the morals you have. (NONE) you just want to sit back and reap the benefits of what our soldiers past and present did?? Yes I applied for the marines when I was 17 and turned down for no diploma My entire family was military from WW1. I was willing to fight,die whatever, but was denied.(Now they accept illegal Immigrants).

Lastly..... Come on with the Quote...."Beat me, but you will never break me ... I put myself through more pain than you could ever present to me."

Too many movies dude. I'd break you in under a minute!!!!

If you think your ideals as a Christian have been diluted, then, maybe you should seriously read your Bible a few times over. I think you missed the point. J-sus = love, compassion.

No offense but the bible is one of the most violent books I've ever read. The bible has quite a few stories with incredible violence which could not be defined as love from any perspective.

Just a thought.

reply to post by jfj123

You hit the nail right on the head.

There's tons of examples of violence not to mention contradiction.In revelations alone.

I believe in God and Christ but I also believe in worshipping him in the way my heart tells me.

I'm not one of those weekly church drones.Not knocking them,but that's not for me.

I wasn't one to do something cause everyone else did.

reply to post by 19DCW71


actually, I am a Christian. I just have respect for my G-d

sarcasm, not really, maybe a little, but, to get a point across.

you are the one who said where G-d put the people, so, G-d put Native Indians here, are you one? No? Then you are still offspring of an occupier than raped and ravaged the land (and still does). Does that make me any different? Not really. I am Italian and German, so, my heritage has enough black marks, but I was born here, and my family goes back pre-civil war ... who served for the North in the debacle. That still doesn't matter, because of the horrible things the people before that did to the people who OWNED the land ... whether they had a flag or not, or used that word, they were here, they used the resources respectfully, and lived their dreams.

My passionate ideals as a Christian is actually what I speak of. Peace, Harmony, Love. Though I do agree with your representation of U.S.A. being similar to Rome

What you don't understand, is, you are the one who is stopping yourself from living in your Christian values ... and, by not upholding the separation of church and state, and keeping freedom and equality for all, you are denying G-d's Word, since, he said to uphold your country's laws. This means, you have the choice to be straight and believe in him ... the people around you have the choice to not do either.

Let me ask you this, do you think G-d wants people to falsely believe in him? Without choice? NO. He wants you to choose to walk with him. You shouldn't force religion on your children, allow them to learn as much as they want, but trust in G-d to guide their spirit. Why do you think so many people claim they are Christians, act it on sunday (a pagan worship day btw) and live in a cruel manner the other six days?

If you wish to say how G-d dishes punishment, then so be it. Are you G-d? Are you hearing his angels speaking to you to tell you to hate, maim, kill? If so, you may want to express that so people know you are a prophet being communicated to by G-d through his angels. Otherwise, you have no right to judge or persecute ... that is in G-d's hands ONLY.

I have turned the other cheek. I have never been in a fight. I have been punched in the face and laughed at them. You know what, laughing actually made them quite embarrassed. I was punched in the stomach in front of the teach, the Principal and Vice Principal held the kid and gave me right to punch him back ... I declined, for I am not a violent person by my nature. There are other instances as well, but, I have never been bruised or broken by any acts of violence. Passiveness prevents escalation ... and most things escalate from primitive human emotions, that weak minded people haven't learned how to control. I will defend someone I love, if they are being attacked, but, otherwise, violence is pointless, even in retaliation. It never solves any problems.

If I believe in G-d's Word, I am a fool. Thanks, I would rather be G-d's fool than to pick and choose what I follow, as apparently you do. How can you argue with someone who will throw out the things he doesn't agree with and quote the things that proves his point? That is quite a way to go about things, isn't it? I tried to say, read as close to the original text as possible, read many translations and translate it on your own. You will get the best understanding of it that way. If you are not a Jewish man, then, you must follow the New Covenant ... that is the agreement with you, but, following the Old Covenant is still a respectful thing to do.

Instead of disregarding the tree that is bearing bad fruit, why not nurture it, support it, and help it to produce good fruit? Wouldn't our G-d want you to at least TRY to save the tree instead of burn it to the ground or leave it to wither and die because you are too weak in your own strength to help out the sick?

You assume I have a lot of friends, eh? No. I will not use that word lightly. I have one friend. I have a few family members. BUT, I don't give up on others as I pass them by. I keep my nature good. That doesn't mean I let them in my house, but I show them respect equally, and treat them humanely. I have put countless effort into other people at my choosing. I have tried to help people, regardless if they were willing to help themselves. You know what, I am not in their lives, but, I can see the positive influence I had. I only let them take what I planned on sacrificing in the first place. I know the intent of people, so I plan for it. That doesn't make the effect I had by staying kind and true any less significant, in fact, it makes it more grand to them.

Oh, and I have also been through the ups and downs of relationships. I have been through things like your experiment with multiple results. I was young once in heart and actions. But, just because you had a bad experience, doesn't mean you stop living and trying, nor do you stop being true to yourself and your heart. If you change, that is your weakness. If you turn cold and emotionless, that is your loss. I will stay true to who I am regardless if I get hurt or get praised, because, I love myself and my emotions. I love who G-d made me, and I will not change my spirits because things don't happen the way I want them to ... I will continue to follow whatever path is laid before me and influence others the best I can by staying true to my spirit, no matter the circumstances.

I am glad you understand that I am disappointed with my government and that is why the flag is like that and there. It is not the mark of the beast, for it is not on or in my hand nor my forehead. I keep myself away from a lot of that societal corruption. I don't use banks, I don't use credit cards. I have become more simple in my wants and desires. I don't watch tv. I will be as close to who I was as a child as possible. As pure, innocent, and loving as I can. TV doesn't like that, that is why more than a quarter of the day is commercials, despite the fact you pay to watch them. I have noticed, those who watch commercials, want more stuff, new stuff, fancy stuff ... those who don't are happy with what they have more often.

hehe, no, go to a Bible college if you want to be schooled, I am just trying to open you mind to the Love, not the negativity.

oh, and to reiterate, I don't strike back because of the Love in my heart, not out of fear ... I have no reason to lie to you, or to anyone on here. I could care less what you or anyone else thinks of me. I will live my life as I have chosen. If you don't have that kind of love and compassion in your heart, that is your problem. What you fail to realize, is, there is a reason that person is angry, and it usually isn't the person they are taking it out on. Don't get me wrong, if they try to hit me repeatedly, I will restrain them. But, I am a big guy, and I could seriously hurt someone, which I wish to never do.

Actually, I took the test, because, it is fun. I like to test my knowledge once in a while. Do they keep stuff like that on record? If so, I could go to the recruiting office and retrieve it. I would assume the may not, and it was several years ago. Sorry if you don't enjoy using your intelligence. The ASVAB was required in school though, that is different. I could take it again I suppose, if that would make you happy? I doubt it would. You seem to have trust issues, and don't seem to be too happy at the moment.

I have morals, in fact, more than you I am sorry to say. For all of the morals you claim to have, you seem to have a lot of issues with other people. I respect our current and past soldiers. I am actually the first male to not fight in a war in my family line. But you would say, deny your mother and father and fight anyway, right? Now, are you telling me to not honor my mother and father? Are you asking me to break a commandment? Maybe you should have thought of that before trying to belittle me because you lack of argument against me forced you into that position.

BTW, the quote, though somewhat serious, was more of a joke. I do stand up to corrupt authority though. I will only put up with so much, but, I fight with words and intellect, not my fists ... it seems you would rather punch a supervisor if things were bad than debate with peace and compassion. Appeal to the good in people, you get more accomplished ... try to force and coerce, you usually get worse off. If all else fails, step away from the situation or problem that is unsovable ... it isn't running away, it is realizing that the battle is fruitless and there is no winners ... something we should consider in Iraq, since, we are creating more terrorists, our soldiers are suffering casualties, the start of it was a lie, and it has been admitted to be mostly for oil. What more do you need to bring those soldiers home? To keep them from losing limbs and life? Is that not enough for you? Why not have them protect us here, while being close to their families? You say I have no morals and don't respect the soldiers, but, it seems I do so quite a bit if you actually listened to me or read my signature. BTW, if you wanted, get a GED, then you can serve. I have friends that have done it, so it is possible. If you really want to do it, you are the only one stopping yourself from serving. My promise to my mother and father are why I am not in the service right now. I actually mentioned going a month or two ago, and their feelings were the same and just as strong. So don't try to assume why, unless you know

Again, you don't have to believe anything I say, G-d, my family, and my friend know what the truth is, you are insignificant as far as that goes, but, I will still try to convey my feelings and points regardless, hopefully, you will have a little love and trust in your heart ... and whatever has hurt you and made you so cold, you can heal and recover from that even and start to love and trust again.

Best wishes to you.

reply to post by jfj123


Yeah, the O.T. is gruesome. But the fact that people use religion for the basis of war is wrong.

I also don't attend regular church. I have been to too many false churches full of corruption. I have yet to find one that practices what it preaches, and preaches what is in the Book.

I disagree with blaming the religions ... including Islam. Killing is forbidden in them all. The extremists find ways to try and justify it anyway.

The crazy part is, if I didn't have G-d, I would probably be a buddhist monk or something of that nature. They are much more peaceful than most other religions, and peace is what I am dreaming of for the world.