The Sister Lucia of Fatima Who Died Recently was not the Real Sister Lucia: Compelling Evidence!

Excellent Thread!

I'm must also apologize for my own off-topic comments, because like WW, I love this thread!

The job of a moderator being what it is, I tend to read much more than I post (a complete 180 from my non-moderator days). When I do comment, it's usually to ask members to be civil, stay on topic, ad nauseam. You know, the usual moderator nagging.

In the course of reviewing scores of threads, some stand out as particularly bad and some stand out as particularly good. This thread is particularly good, and is truly a welcome relief for tired eyes.

Hopefully it's clear that a good thread isn't a matter of who's right or wrong, or who "scores the most points", but rather a good example of how our excellent membership can tackle a mystery and find answers.

To everyone who has made this thread such a fine example of Denying Ignorance, rest assured that it is rare for staff members to feel compelled to "break down the fourth wall" and compliment a thread like this.

Whatever our individual theories about Sister Lucia may be, this thread offers a wealth of facts and perspectives that are undeniably invaluable in developing a well-informed opinion.

In a world where so much is clouded and gray, light shines brightly here.

Thank you so much!

Thanks worldwatcher, Thanks DontTreadOnMe, Thanks Majic, it is a fascinating mystery isn't it?

Let's see, where do I start?

Okay, here we go: Mr. Salbato lives in California so I waited until a couple of hours ago to email him. His response came in a while ago. He said that he is going to join the board and that he's open to the idea of doing a podcast. (He's a great speaker, ya'll) but that due to his work load he feels it will be in a couple of days.

So, in the meantime I started contacting cosmetic surgeons about the differences in the chin at early age and old age. Only one (an assistant) has been able to look at the photos so far, she felt that perhaps Lucia had had major oral surgery which could account for some changes in the jaw structure but that looking at the photos it seemed to be an extreme change. Kinda neutral answer. So now I'm waiting on some return calls from surgeons to get a consensus. I've also contacted a forensic pathologist about dentures and the change of jaw structure in older people. Sounds cold, but that's what it is necessary to convince ya'll.

So far we have a person who knew her, stated clearly that he brought her family to visit her, that they had lengthy chats and that there was no outcry of impostor from them, and they should know.

We also have a member that knows some of her family members and he never heard one word about differences or a replacement of Lucia.

I'm going with the family on this, there's only one Lucia.

I'll keep you posted,

STM

[edit on 9/25/2007 by seentoomuch]

And we have pictures and unless those pictures have been modified (doubt it), I cannot see how this lady would be able to change by growing a chin and having her teeth sawed down and aligned. even with bonding they are made slightly longer to wrap around the bottom of the tooth.

The only other explanation I can see is that one or the other is mislabeled or misidentified.

Although I realize that you've gone to allot of trouble here STM there is too much difference for me to sweep under the rug.

How many times have you heard of men that don't know the color of their wives eyes after years of marriage. If I were in deep conversation with someone I would remember what they said more than what they looked like unless it was Jessica Beil or something.

I don't mean to push it all back up again by the way.

I don't understand this.

So basically there are some that claim Sister Lucia is already dead and replaced with a look-alike so the 3rd secret would not be revealed? I don't see the purpose, considering the power of the church and it's influence of those within it, if they told Sister Lucia to remain silent over the 3rd secret I have no doubt she would.

I personally don't buy any of this three secrets bunk. I feel that this is just another example of the old third-world religious vision propaganda, usually perpetuated by the catholic church to maintain control over the various groups of poor indigenous peoples. There's always one that has a vision of Mary and then the rest end up seeing the same thing to in puddles, widow panes, buildings...even on toast. Come on.

This makes more sense to me:

The apparitions occurred during a period when Freemasons had gained influence in Portugal and attempted to limit the power of the Catholic Church following the republican revolution of October 5, 1910.

Secularists may have viewed the apparitions as an attempt by the Church to reassert political control. The detention of the children by the provincial administrator reflects this concern.

Following the rise of the counter-revolutionaries in the military revolution of 1926, under General Óscar Carmona, the newly re-established government, and especially that of Prof. António de Oliveira Salazar, devotion to Our Lady of Fatima was no longer semi-forbidden. In fact, it became rather encouraged, being one of the three anecdotal elements of popular Portuguese nationalism: "Fado, Fatima, and Futbol"

WIKI

Mission accomplished.

Judging from the churches insidious and at times downright sinister activities past and present it's not beyond them to use these three children as a rallying tool, and nothing more.

The church has a history of using children.

Originally posted by jbondo
No offense intended at all but are you all sure your not just accepting this because you don't want to believe that it's possible. Your beloved Catholic church deceiving you like that?

My opinion that there wasn't a second Sister Lucia, only one, is just based on the photos and on the fact that I do not see the need for something like that.

If the idea of the substitution was to avoid the real Lucia from publicly revealing that the third secret was not the one that she wrote then they had many ways of doing it, and none of them would put them at the risk of being discovered by someone who looked to Sister Lucia and noticed that she wasn't the same.

Oh, and don't think that I may refuse that idea just to avoid feeling cheated by the Catholic Church, I am an atheist.

Hi Majic, I hope I didn't go off topic on my last post. My only point was with the church the way it is and what it has done in the past, I would not put it past them to do a switch and stick in one of their brainwashed puppets. IT would not surprise me at all.

I would be more shocked if the church was actually totally honest with all of the Secrets and their motives.

Just got a call back from the forensic pathologist, he was quite interested in this topic btw, guess it gave him a break from his usual drill. Anyhow, he said oral surgery and dentures do often change the structure of the jaw and make it more pronounced. And also as we age our soft tissues withdraw from the chin area which gives our chin a more pronounced appearance. He did not have a computer at hand to compare the photos.

In a couple of early photos it looks to me as if Lucia is tucking her chin, the later photos she is holding her head up. Add to that the oral surgery, perhaps dentures and the withdrawal of soft tissues from the chin area from age and I think the chin question is over, it is Lucia.

I still have a couple of calls out to cosmetic surgeons, I'll let you know what their opinion is. I'll really push for them to compare the photos.

STM

Wow! Nice that the mods are commending us for good behavior of all things... after reading over some of their comments I've been having to pinch myself just to make sure I'm actually logged on to ATS! But great that you all think things have been going well here -- I agree!

STM -- So you contacted some medical doctor's to look at those Lucia photo's!? Isn't it enough that you've already contacted someone who was a personal friend of Lucia?? Who's next? The POPE?!
Lol, keep up the good work! I'm very interested in finding out what they have to say about those photo's!

Lol, Palasheea, I would've called the Pope if I thought it would help get to the truth, but he's the one that wrote the interpretation of the 3rd Secret which many people don't agree with, myself included.

The picture I'm getting of the Vatican from Rick is that there's good people there and there's some that shouldn't be there and there's some with church political agendas. He gave me a lot of detail on this the other day, I just couldn't keep up with the names he was listing off to me. Cardinal Bertone whose is the author of a new book on Sr. Lucia that is mentioned below is one of the names he listed, problem is I just can't remember if he thought well of him or not.

Anyhow, here's the latest mention of Sr. Lucia from Rome that Rick sent me a little while ago. It has some interesting insights. Wish we could see the video they had at the presentation.

STM

Sister Lucia's Last Moments

Mother Superior Says Visionary Was Filled With Light

ROME, SEPT. 25, 2007 (Zenit.org).- When Cardinal Tarcisio Bertone's book about the last Fatima visionary was presented, guests got a chance to watch a video about Sister Lucia's final moments, related by her Mother Superior.

At Friday's presentation of "L'Ultima Veggente di Fatima" (The Last Fatima Visionary), written by the Pope's secretary of state, those in attendance saw a video reporting on the Convent of Coimbra, in Portugal, where Sister Lucia lived for the last 57 years of her life.

The visionary occupied the same cell during all those decades, and from there "she flew to heaven," said the superior of the Carmelite community, Sister Maria Celina of Jesus Crucified.

First impression

Recalling her first impressions of Sister Lucia, the superior said, "When I entered, it took me eight days to recognize Sister Lucia. When one of the sisters asked me: 'Mother, should I bring you a piece of bread to eat tonight?' I said to myself that this could not be Sister Lucia. And yet it was her."

Sister Maria Celina recalled how the visionary would stand at the end of the path leading to a statue of the Blessed Virgin, and scold her cousins who also witnessed the apparitions, "You went to heaven and left me here alone."

The superior said that Sister Lucia always denied any talk of a "fourth secret of Fatima." Sister Lucia would say of people who spread rumors of the alleged secret that "they are never satisfied; that they should do what Our Lady asked, that this is the most important thing. When someone would say: ‘Sister Lucia, they say there is another secret' […] she would look at them ironically. 'If there is one,' she would say, 'I wish they would tell it to me: I know of no other secrets.'"

Sister Maria Celina said that the visionary was never satisfied with the image made of Our Lady.

"The image of Our Lady was not how she wanted it," the superior said. "Sometimes she seemed ugly to her because it did not correspond to her exact memories; it was not what the artist derived from her description. It is somewhat like what happened with St. Bernadette."

Joyous nun

Sister Maria Celina described Sister Lucia as a woman religious who "emanated joy."

"I lived with her for 28 years and I saw a person who, the older she got, the more she developed an evangelical childhood," she said. "She seemed again to be the child who had the apparitions in the Cova de Ira. The heavier her body became, the lighter her spirit became."

Speaking of Sister Lucia's last hours, the superior said: "When she needed assistance we placed her bed at the center of the cell and we were around her, together with the bishop of Leiria-Fatima. I was kneeling down next to her. Sister Lucia looked at everyone and then looked at me at the end. It was a long look, but in her eyes there was a deep light, which I carry in my soul.

"I pray to her always and I know she prays for us. There are things that have no need of words: A gesture or a thought is sufficient. Sister Lucia had a hearing problem. Now she doesn’t anymore. Now she understands everything without words."

If those are dentures I'll eat my hat and if there is a dentist out there that pulls all your teeth and replaces them with much shorter and wider teeth, well, I'll eat your hat too.

So far I am seeing allot of hearsay. STM, did this "expert" actually look at the pictures? As for pulling her chin in on an early picture and jutting it out on a later one, that's precisely what I thought at first but the more I studied the more I realized that this just wasn't the case.

You may need to get the Pope, not that I would believe him either. OK! Settle down! It's a joke.

Listen, I'm not even saying that the women were actually switched but the pictures are not of the same woman. So as you can see I'm not doubting the stories from alleged friends of the Nun, I'm just saying the pictures are wrong. Of course if references claim outright that these are all the same woman I would then have to go deeper with my denial of the presentation.

You know i have to do this STM, it's for your own good! Whatever that means...LOL!

jbondo!

Thanks for your comments and I admit that I myself am flip flopping if it's the same woman or not but one thing for sure, it does seem that this person, at the very least, had some work done on her jawline -- and yes, I hate to say it but those teeth do not look like dentures to me for those reasons you stated.

This said, I have another hypothesis -- and please, try not to laugh... It could very well be this facial transformation, and this is exactly what it is, might in itself be a MIRACLE!

I'm not ruling this out because after all, the Fatima event is the mother of all BVM visitations in the history of the Catholic Church!

I have a reference I'm going to quote in few minutes here in this same post that allows us the opportunity to at least consider that those changes in her appearance could very well be by divine intervention. I found some information that may support this possibility.

It quotes some witnesses saying that at the time when Lucia would be gazing up at the apparition, they witnessed a profound change in her face where she no longer looked like the same person.... they even said that her lips were thinner and so on... I flipped when I read that because it goes without saying that the before and after mouth of Lucia and how different they are is another thing we've talked about here.


But I do think this Miracle hypothesis is something we should consider too ... it's certainly not anymore preposterous than this impostor hypothesis that's being talked about in this thread -- that's for sure.

Pal, as a Christian I believe in healing and the possibility you suggest is...well, possible I guess.

My problem is that if her jaw and face were divinely altered don't you think her teeth would be a bit more, how shall I put this....attractive? I mean, if I was doing the healing I would utilize the same teeth and just fix the whole shebang, but that's just me. Although misplaced; if you look at them individually her original teeth are much more attractive than the new ones.

I can go with you to a point here but the teeth are still a sticking point with me and quite frankly to get that chin I can see nothing less than an implant.

Are there any records of anyone talking about her having maxillofacial problems in her early years?

Good points jbondo!
I'll comment more on your post tomorrow but just thought I'd post this now --
I've got a family member who's a radiologist who works at a plastic surgery clinic -- (and a Hospital too). I asked him to look over the photo's on that 2 Lucy's? website (gave him the links of those 2 pages with those photo comparisons on them) and here are 2 emails he sent back to me on this -- Lol, he's not one for caps and punctuation -- these messages are as I got them. He says they are 2 different people.

Email #1

"in looking at first site I went to, sister two is not the same as sister one. sister two has thinner lips and while she has a square chin not as square as sister one, who also has a bump in it just below the lower lip. also, sister two has thinner eyebrows and a rounder face than the longer sister one.

secondly, the second sister two is not the same as the first sister two and definitely not eh same as the sister one to her left because in last set of images sister one not only has a U shape smile. her middle upper teeth as longer than the rest and sister two either has had dental work or is different because all the teeth are the same length and all perfectaly matched almost like little squares. and, as pointed out in article has eye brows further apart.

Email #2
"interesting, the article points out everything I was saying. especially well seen in the last sites multiple comparisons is the change in lips, smile, and as I said, number one has a bump under the lip and number two has an indentation. no way the same."


PS
He picked out an err on the 2 Lucy's? website about the photo below when he was saying in his first email that "secondly, the second sister two is not the same as the first sister two..." see image below:


This is true and there's a whole page on the 2 Lucy's website that that so called 'younger Lucy' photo that was shown in that Catholic magazine is not Lucia but someone else. The catholic magazine later admitted that they posted that image in err....
Just saying that my brother-in-law, the radiologist picked that out right away.


PS 2 -- Interesting what professionals look at as opposed to laymen... he pointed out that Lucia 2 has a bump under her bottom lip as opposed to Lucia 1 who has an indentation. This was not even mentioned in the analysis on the 2 Lucy's website but now just looking at those photo's, I see what he's talking about -- and he's right!
In addition to this, he focused on the shapes of the chins ... each one is different.
So the above analysis is from a radiologist who works at a plastic surgery clinic where they do face lifts and facial reconstruction and so on. Anyway, he views x-rays of faces several times a week -- if he says they are 2 different people then I'm going to go with that analysis. Lol, back to square one again.


[edit on 26-9-2007 by Palasheea]

Originally posted by jbondo
Pal, as a Christian I believe in healing and the possibility you suggest is...well, possible I guess.

My problem is that if her jaw and face were divinely altered don't you think her teeth would be a bit more, how shall I put this....attractive? I mean, if I was doing the healing I would utilize the same teeth and just fix the whole shebang, but that's just me. Although misplaced; if you look at them individually her original teeth are much more attractive than the new ones.

I can go with you to a point here but the teeth are still a sticking point with me and quite frankly to get that chin I can see nothing less than an implant.

Are there any records of anyone talking about her having maxillofacial problems in her early years?

Hi jbondo -- I agree with you that it's odd that those teeth are as they are but at this point, this doesn't matter anymore because we've got a professional who should know if he's looking at the same person or not becuase he works in facial reconstruction where he's saying that they simply are not the same people due to a number of significant differences in Lucia 1 and Lucia 2's faces.

When I sent him my request for him to look over those 2 pages that show those comparisons on that 2 Lucica's website, all I asked him was 'are these 2 people the same?" -- and the verdict is... they are not the same people. By saying this, he's implying that he agree's with the author of that site who presented her own analysis of this that Lucia 1 is the real Lucia and Lucia 2 is the impostor.

If, for example, there were some changes in her face due to say... divine intervention, then I'm guessing we would be seeing a re-definement of her chin and teeth only. But here instead, we are seeing some global changes in that face that's showing significant differences not only in the shape of Lucia's chin -- but also her teeth, lips, brow, shape of head and so on as stated by a licensed MD Radiologist who graduated from Loyola Medical School who's been a radiologist for over 25 years now who works for a very elite plastic surgery clinic. We are not talking about a jack of all trades Radiologist -- we are talking about a Radiologist who has years of experience working as part of a team in a plastic surgery clinic that does facial reconstructions. So to have someone like this, analyse those Lucia photo's on those 2 pages on that site and say that they are in fact 2 different people, should, I think, be considered as an authoritative professional opinion that they are in fact 2 people -- and in this case, we should consider that the Vatican has replaced Lucia with an impostor.


[edit on 27-9-2007 by Palasheea]

I read some of the Fatima story and the miracle that suppose to have happened that day. All these people were looking at the sun as instructed. They then saw an orb and then lots of lights. I would suggest not looking right into the sun because you will damage your eyes. If you are curious about what they saw that day then go stare at the sun for a minute. I dare ya.

Hey Pal!

Some great stuff there! You and STM are getting close to neck and neck with research.

I too noticed some of the less pronounced differences such as face shape, eyebrows, etc...Didn't notice the "bump" thing though. I didn't really mention the less tangible differences because I just didn't think they would fly. However, now that we have a pro pointing them out I can see that I wasn't crazy in thought.

I guess the next step is to find out if there was major facial/dental surgery. Major to the point of changing someones entire face structure which is possible had there been say a car accident or something similar. I don't think it would change the eyebrows though or the lips unless the new face pulled at them.

Lets see what STM comes back with and I will do whatever I can to help clear up this mystery.

Again, great stuff from you, STM and all involved.

Lol, I was thinking about contacting my brother-in-law about those photo's early on in this thread but because, at least to me, it seemed pretty cut and dried that they were 2 different people, I didn't bother.
But then STM mentioned that she contacted some medical doctors to look at some photo's too where I then contacted her and told her I would also contact my brother-in-law about this too.
Truth be told, I didn't really think this analysis in this thread would be taken to the level that it has now but I must say I'm over joyed about that and I do hope that we can get a dentist or an oral surgeon to tell us more about Lucia 2's truly unique set of teeth. Regardless that she's not the original Lucia -- and this is just my personal opinion based on the information I have now -- I'm still very curious about why those teeth are so short and sawed down like that.

But I do have one hypothesis about this. It could be that the Vatican did not want the Lucia impostor to be shown with 'hollywood' perfect teeth as in dental work, front partials or dentures because may be they thought that would be 'out of character' for someone who allegedly is up for beautification for sainthood. So, to keep up appearances, they made her wear what I guess we could say are super cheap crappy dentures -- the kind of dentures maybe that people had in the first half of the 20th century in poverty stricken or very poor European or 3rd world countries.
I'm thinking this may be what those 'teeth' are all about. I wouldn't put it past the Vatican to have her wear dentures like that; if that's what they are. I personally think they are real teeth because of the gum inflammations shown in some of her photographs and because those teeth are concave! I just can't imagine any kind of dentures where the teeth are intentionally set inwards like they are, let alone like little boxes like my brother-in-law's saying. The spaces between her teeth might be from braces. It could be that this person wore braces for a few years to correct them. I've seen a lot of nuns wearing braces. They visit dentists just like everyone else, no difference.
The vow of poverty does not extend to intentional prohibition of medical and dental maintenance.

[edit on 27-9-2007 by Palasheea]

Originally posted by cloakndagger
I read some of the Fatima story and the miracle that suppose to have happened that day. All these people were looking at the sun as instructed. They then saw an orb and then lots of lights. I would suggest not looking right into the sun because you will damage your eyes. If you are curious about what they saw that day then go stare at the sun for a minute. I dare ya.

Cloakdagger, from what I've been reading, those who were describing the 'miracle of the sun' said that it was not the same kind of brightness that one see's in a regular sun. It had its own unique kind of brightness and special effects that allowed everyone to look at it directly, if that makes sense. But that's what witnesses reported that day. Thanks for your comments!

Originally posted by Palasheea
[those who were describing the 'miracle of the sun' said that it was not the same kind of brightness that one see's in a regular sun. It had its own unique kind of brightness and special effects that allowed everyone to look at it directly, if that makes sense.

Yes. As I said, my husband and I (and a few million others) personally saw 'the miracle of the sun' in Medjugorje.

It was like there was a host (Eucharist) in front of the ball of the sun. There were colors shooting out from the sun. It was dancing in the sky. Also, different people in our group saw different things. One fella who was considering the priesthood saw a chalice appear under the sun and the sun disk was the Eucharist with blood dripping off it into the chalice. Others saw angels flying near the sun.

2nd time I saw it - I saw a door appear in front of the sun. Old fashioned like you'd see in a castle. With big black hinges on the side. The door opened and the bright light from the sun shone out. In front of the door stood Mary. At least, it was a beautiful blue shining shape that looked much like the statues of Mary. I said a quick prayer - she then opened the door and zipped back into (what I think is heaven) the bright area behind the door. The door then vanished and the sun was back.

Wow, interesting info from your brother-in-law, Palasheea. Thanks. And I'm glad that you are searching too, it's a true mystery that we just might be able to solve here. I hope the books are interesting and give us some insight to move this forward.

Once again I must still say that there was only one Lucia. I cannot get around her family visiting her and recognizing her. Some of the visits were with family members that she played with as a child. So, here’s what I’ve been doing to try to make sense of this;

I’ve been reading up on the forensics of facial recognition and I’m finding that it is a very specialized field with few people who are available for comments as most work for law enforcement agencies.

Also I’m finding that most cosmetic surgeons do not specialize in advanced age faces, most of their clients are young to middle-aged and are interested in enhancements, lol. Most would not be qualified to give an opinion on this controversy. I did find one however, who does specialize in facial aging with excellent bonafides. I’ve spoken with her staff and though the Dr. is out of town at the moment they might if they have the time check in on the thread. Lol, it was tough to word my request so that it would even be considered, I’ve got it down to an science now.

I also contacted a clinic who specializes in Prosthodontics, they might have a look, they didn’t sound that interested though.

Last one I contacted this morning is a well established physical anthropologist who has delved into this sort of topic before. The number I had went directly to his personal voice mail and once again I left a very carefully worded request for his unofficial, totally anonymous opinion on the two Lucias either via me or by his own anonymous post.

I understand it’s a longshot that any will post here, they’re very busy in their fields, but what the heck, thought I go for it to try and settle this once and for all.

What I’ve found on my own while searching the net is that the chin does become jutting with age. Also the disposition of fat volume on the face is based on genetics and type of diet. Sr. Lucia according to Rick Salbato was mainly a vegetarian with an occasional poultry meal in her diet. The vegetables were from the convent’s own garden so were seasonal. Which would have an effect on her facial fat distribution.

Bad teeth affect the bone structure of the jaw in various ways, I can’t go into all the detail here, it’s volumes of terms that are difficult to understand.

The lips thin with age according to the collagen in your body. She was vegetarian which definitely did not help hold off this aspect of aging and probably speeded it up. Lip thinning happens to all of us eventually.

Also with middle age onwards the natural upward position of the mouth starts to turn down at the corners.

Eyebrows thin dramatically with middle age onward. Perhaps you recall seeing an Aunt or older woman having to pencil in her eyebrows, that is what happens with age. The shape will also change according to the amount of strands left to work with.

(Lol, this is subject is depressing me, I’ve got all this to look forward too?)

Below is a basic list of changes to the face that comes with age. It’s the best I could find that was in close to layman’s terms.

Source: www.plasticsurgerypa.com...

Characteristic signs of facial aging include:

Greater visibility of tiny blood vessels in the skin, due to thinning of the dermis
Greater visibility of bony landmarks, like jutting cheekbones or chins, secondary to facial fat involution
Hollowing of the cheek and mouth area due to bone and dental loss, as well as volume depletion (loss of fat)
Descent of facial fat pads due to gravity and deepening of the lines on the sides of the nose (nasolabial folds), and jowling
Thinning lips and flattening of the central part of the upper lip (philtrum)
Drooping corners of the mouth leading to loss of structure to support lip edges
Drooping of the nasal tip
Decreased support of the lower third of face

Lol, gotta go now, I’m now into the face exercises I found on the net. For the next thirty minutes I’m gonna be making funny faces while I look in the mirror. Gotta work those muscles ya’ll, especially after all the depressing info I’ve been finding on the net.



STM