So, do you think you could do it better?

I have been reading so many threads lately that deal with how bad President Bush is, and how bad America is. I hear people gripeing about taxes, war in the middle east, trade, especially with Mexico, not to mention NAU this and that. I hear all about how approval ratings are down along with the good ol American dollar. I have even been hearing people say that we are no longer a free country, that our govt. has taken away all our liberties. Cant say that I agree there, but that is what I have been hearing a lot lately. I was floored when I read that people blame President Bush for all terrorism. That is absolutly obsurd. People are actually justifing the acts of terrorism by blaming President Bush. Nothing justifies terrorism.

What I would love to debate here is what you would do different. I have heard a few opinions on the subject, but I dont see how many of those ideas could actually play out effectivly.

I used to be against the whole income tax thing, but after giving it more thought, there is nothing I would change about it.

I have also read all over, how people think we need to mind our own business, pull all our fellas back home, and basicly become a hermit country. I do not see how that would help anything. Everything that happens in the world directly affects us. Perhaps it needs to be reorganised, but how?

Dominicus, in another thread today, brought up something I have heard so often.

Make it a popular vote, not the electoral college, which completely nullifies the popular vote and has voted differently in almost every election.

That is the quickest way to destroy the "United" States of America. Life in California, New York, and Florida is far different not only from each other but than the Midwest. It is not fair for them to decide for the rest of the nation.

Basicly folks, if you have a problem with our President, or our country, then please post what it is you would do differently. Let us debate the plausability of your ideas, and perhaps we can figure out how to do it better. Then maybe just maybe we can do something about it instead of just pout.

I will reaffirm what I posted earlier in that other thread. And some of what I say may sound familiar because it's what Ron Paul believes in and says in the debates. But it's what I believe too, so in no way am I just copying off of him.

_____________________________________________________

What is terrorism? The dictionary defines it as: the use of violence and threats to intimidate or coerce, esp. for political purposes.

So is our own government not guilty of terrorism based on that definition alone?

Does it not threaten Iran?

What was the goal of "Shock and Awe"? To intimidate through force?

Do they not issue their "gut feelings" that terrorists will strike us and kill us again? Is that not fear mongering?

So how come that isn't considered terrorism?

If Russia invaded the United States, and they occupied, bomb our homes and families, stole our resources etc., and we merged our militias and our armed Americans and we went out to find these Russian troops. Lets say we come across a batch of them. We ambush them. Blow them up. Shoot them. What ever your method may be. We kill them.

Are we terrorists?

Now, the United States invades Iraq, and we occupy, bomb their homes and families, steal their resources etc., and they merge militias and armed Iraqis, and go out to find American troops. They come across a batch of them. They ambush them. Blow them up. Shoot them. What ever their method may be. They kill them.

Are they terrorists?

You would probably say to the first one - well, we're fighting for our homes. Russia has no business on our soil and stealing our resources. This is our country.

But if that is indeed true, then is it not true for the second scenario as well?

It doesn't matter what you believe about 9/11, nor does it matter what I believe. Blow back is very real, and it is happening, and has been happening for some time now.

We involve ourselves in others' affairs. We meddle in their politics. We build huge military bases. We run black ops in countries. We stage coups simply because we don't like the leader. We bomb them for their resources, then we occupy their land.

That has consequences. We absolutely cannot go on like that and not expect a response. Then to label that response as terrorism? That is complete hypocrisy and ignorance.

What can we do to fix how we do things?

Simple, actually:

Stay the hell out of other people's business.

But if you want more in depth, then here:

All foreign US military bases must be shut down and all troops return home.

All US troops participating in the Iraq War, War on Terror, and other operations must return home.

The Federal Reserve is not a federal agency or department. It is a private, central bank. The income tax is unconstitutional. There IS NO LAW saying we have to pay income tax. The income tax merely covers the interest on their massive military spending.

No alliances or defense agreements. The founding fathers specifically said do not ally with anyone.

Trade freely with EVERYONE. The founding fathers also specifically said to do this.

Become more peaceful and diplomatic towards nations we do not necessarily agree with. Talk to everyone. Do not shut anyone out. Do NOT create blow back.

Stop interfering in other nations' politics. We wouldn't like it if they did it to us.

Stop the unnecessary wars. Stop bombing their families and their homes.

No nation building. No policing the world. No stealing resources. No occupying lands.

No bullying other nations. No jumping the gun and saying we need to go into a country 10 years away from being able to have one nuke when we dealt with the Soviet Union who had 40,000 of them without going to war.

This is a flawed foreign policy that is just begging for retaliation. If we are to keep this foreign policy, then we shouldn't label them as the terrorists. We're the terrorists.

To fix our nation domestically, we need to abolish the Patriot Act, as I said, abolish the income tax and Federal Reserve, put education back in the hands of the state and local governments, give more power back to the people and local governments, stop censorship of the news, among many more things.

Our nation is far from perfect. It's far from free. You need permission to do anything. You need to sign your name, or give a thumb print, or give your social security number to do anything. You need to pull out a loan, or you need to file this tax paper, or give this mailing address. When you simply go outside for a walk, you have surveillance cameras on you.

We're not a free country. We want to believe we're free. We've been taught we're free. But we're not.

"It's called the American Dream because you have to be asleep to believe it." - George Carlin

We have a flawed foreign policy. We have a flawed domestic policy. We have a flawed legal system. We have a flawed economy. We have a flawed educational system. Everything is messed up.

If we are to save this once great nation, we need to have a massive reorganization project of the government. The American people need to become more involved in politics and need to start demanding change. This government needs to be broken down and put back together.

We don't need big government and big military if we promote peace and liberty. We only need those things to defend ourselves from our blow back foreign policy and to bully others. If we are truly for peace and freedom, and truly about spreading peace and freedom, then we MUST set a good example. We fix things at home. We bring our troops home. We mind our own business. We turn our nation into a truly perfect society. We make an example that others in other nations will want to follow.

You don't spread peace and freedom through force. You do it by setting a good example. So far, in that department, like every other department outside of corruption, we've failed.

Novus, your ideas are wonderful. I have heard them so many times from so many people. Unfortunatly, they would only work in a perfect world which this is not. I used to be the same way about the Fed. Reserve and income tax. Then I realized if I had a choice (which we all do) I wouldnt change a thing.

Right now, we (my husband and I) pay approx 50% of our income to taxes. I started out needing govt. assistance. So its not like I have always lived comfortably. I will gladly pay that 50% so that people needing govt assistance can get it, and so they can keep more of their income. That money pays for the school my kids go to, the bus they ride on, the care and up keep of the roads they travel on, the parks they play at. The money has to come from somewhere, I think the current system is totaly fair. That money also goes twards health care for those who cant afford their own, and it takes care of our millitary personell as well as their families. Would you really want to change that? Our millitary kicks butt because those men and women are taken care of. They are not (like military in other countries) left to fend for themselfs with nothing but the clothes on their backs. My income tax money helps to pay for that. I will pay that until the day i die willingly.

As for our servicemen/women being all over the world, and us meddling in other countries' business....I wouldnt change that either. You make it out to sound like we are the only ones. We are not. If that is what needs to be done, then it needs to be done. What other countries do, directly affects us. As for Iraq, I fully understand that there was more going on there than we are ever going ot hear on the news. So, I really cant say one way or the other about that. I know that war sucks. It is monstrous, and revolting. I wish that there was never any need for it. Unfortunatly there will always be a need for it. I know that no matter what you say, I will not take the side of somene who feel I need to be killed because I do not share their religious beliefs. I will not side with someone who believes freedom is evil. I will not side with anyone who feels that women arent worth the dirt on their shoe, and has no problem dousing them with gasoline while they are cooking at their gas stove because they wanted a different woman, or because she spoke her mind, or because her face wasnt covered just so. I will not side with any government who makes it a practice to torture men women and children, or torture childrens parents infront of them simply because they disagreed. Not only would I not side with them, but I will do what I need to to keep them from doing it. Right now that is paying my taxes.

By the way we are not the only country who places our troops in other countries. For instance, German troops are stationed in New Mexico.

Becoming hermits will only get us killed.
As for income tax, you need to think long and hard about that. Take a look at what all the tax money does. Ask yourself if you can live with out it. I know that some of the tax money is not spent well. I understand that. People are untrustworthy. But all in all, income tax helps many. Health care, food stamps, housing, govt. assistance for education. There are a lot of people who could not make it with out taxes.

I personaly do not think our educational system is flawed either. Care to elaborate?

And, NO I do not think that Americans are terrorists. There isnt anything that you can say to make me believe otherwise either.

How in the world do you figure that we are not free?

Money for schools comes from local communities. The roads are paid for by the 49 cents or so of tax put on every gallon of gasoline. The parks are paid for by local communities. Health care isn't free, so the people pay for that. Not the government. The Federal Reserve piles up the national debt to build a global military machine. Our income taxes pay for none of this. Our income taxes cover the INTEREST on the Federal Reserve's spending.

Say they want to take private trips, or build huge houses, or go to war for greed, or raise the pay of their criminal friends. Who pays for that? Us. Who pays for the local communities, the roads, the schools? We do. They don't. They don't use our income tax money towards anything that benefits us.

We have the most military bases in the most nations in the world. We meddle in others' affairs. We wouldn't like it if Russia came in to the United States and overthrew our government just because they didn't like who was leading it. Just because there wasn't somebody they could control.

That's not what needs to be done. We can mind our own damn business. By doing what we do, that creates blow back. There is consequences to us running all over the world doing as we please. If you want us to continue to do that - fine - but don't sit back and expect there to not be a response.

You don't change a hostile culture by using force. You set a good example. We need to fix things at home. We need to bring everyone from overseas home. We need to fix our local communities. We need to reorganize government and economy. We need to start a trend to destroy our nuclear stockpile. We need to create MORE civil liberties at home, rather than taking them away. If we stay out of others' business, we won't be a target. We won't be hated. If we are a truly peaceful nation, then we will have more world backing if we are attacked. But since we piss everyone off, very few feel bad for us when we're attacked, and we receive little support.

Our income tax money does nothing for US. It does a lot for THEM. It doesn't benefit us. There is no law saying we have to pay income taxes. Absolutely none. Yet they enforce it, violently at times, and take our homes, our cars, our possessions, and sell them at auction, then place us in jail. How can you go to jail when there is no law? That is dead wrong. That is, by definition, terrorism. Terrorism isn't blowing something up. It is any act where violence or force is used to achieve something or coerce someone into something.

Our educational system should not be controlled by government. There are tons of aspects of history especially which are not covered in schools. Alternative topics are not covered. Politics are not covered. The schools train the kids to be obedient workers. They teach them to be just smart enough to work, and just dumb enough to ignore everything that goes on in their country. That is flawed.

The American Government is a bunch of terrorists. They are the real terrorists. It's very troubling to see that you ignored my two scenarios. So I'll repeat them.

If Russia invades the United States, and we all gather and arm ourselves and go on the offensive and attack Russian troops for occupying our land and stealing our resources, and we kill some of them, are we terrorists?

If the United States invades Iraq, and they all gather and arm themselves and go on the offensive and attack American troops for occupying their land and stealing their resources, and they kill some of them, are they terrorists?

It's no different. The only difference is you have a bias. You think Americans are at a higher level than other humans, and they can do what they want. That is why we're hated in the world. It is that arrogant ignorant attitude that makes us hated and gets us attacked. It has nothing to do with them being evil or brutal. It's because we have that arrogance. It's enough to piss anyone off. I'm pissed off about it, and I'm American. Does that make me a terrorist too?

We are not free. I explained it to you how we're not. I really hope you completely read my post. We're not free. You have to give a signature, a birth date, a social security number for this that and the other. You need to get a permit for this or that, you need to get a loan for this or that, you need to pay for this or that. You have to give your personal information here and there, you have to be monitored by this camera or that person, you need to answer questions, respect authority, and cooperate, otherwise you're automatically assumed to be a terrorist or criminal.

That's not freedom. That's slavery. Being able to walk around the city, or work, or spend your money isn't freedom. Being able to watch TV isn't freedom. Believe it or not, they have sidewalks, TV's, phones, jobs, and shopping malls in other countries that we would label "dictatorships".

Our civil liberties that we allegedly still have from our Constitution are going down the drain one by one.

So tell me, WHEN they're all gone, WHEN there is another attack and martial law is declared, what are you going to think? Can you tell me what your reaction will be? Will you honestly be able to say we're still free? Will you honestly say that a shut down of our freedoms and military patrolled streets is justified?

Is there anything that will ever get you to question authority? Or are they immune to all suspicion of illegal activity which goes against the interests of this nation? Can you honestly give me any situation or scenario that would make you say "enough"?

Yes, I am reading your posts. You have asked that often so I wanted to address that first.

I personally know what part of my taxes, fed, city, sales, etc. goes where.

You are trying to tell me that none of my taxes goes to the military. I would love to see proof of this. Or is this just something you have made up?

Your whole Russia invading us hardly applies. Oh wait, I forgot, Iraq was filled with happy people living in a perfect society holding hands and singing kumbaya. We were the big meanies who came and destroied their happiness. At some point you have to take your rose colored glasses off.

Originally posted by NovusOrdoMundi
That's not what needs to be done. We can mind our own damn business. By doing what we do, that creates blow back. There is consequences to us running all over the world doing as we please. If you want us to continue to do that - fine - but don't sit back and expect there to not be a response.

That has to be one of the most unAmerican things I have ever heard. I would rather deal with the "blow back" of being involved than deal with the consequences of disassociating ourselves from the world.

Originally posted by NovusOrdoMundi
You don't change a hostile culture by using force. You set a good example.

There is a perfect example of how good we have it here in America. That kind of hell has never touched you or your life. You have never been imprisoned for owning a Christian bible, or stoned to death for haveing sex with someone someone else thought you shouldnt. You never had to watch your parents be tortured to death quite literaly because they disagreed with the government. Your right, it sucks here in America. I have no idea why I didnt see it sooner. It doesnt matter what kind of example you set, they still want you to die, and they will make that happen given the chance. Because you are a sinner/infidel in their eyes. But if you insist, then by all means, go over there and start setting an example.

As for our education system, there is only so much you can fit into 7 hours. They are hard pressed to teach our kids multiplication in that amount of time, and you are gripeing because they wont teach alternative subjects as well? I thought those were offered in college. Illeteracy in adults comming out of school is practly unheard of. Every child is capable of getting a continuing education. Every person in America is allowed to read what ever book about what ever they want. If someone wants to learn more about a subject the only thing stopping them is them.

Originally posted by NovusOrdoMundi
You have to give a signature, a birth date, a social security number for this that and the other. You need to get a permit for this or that, you need to get a loan for this or that, you need to pay for this or that. You have to give your personal information here and there, you have to be monitored by this camera or that person, you need to answer questions, respect authority, and cooperate, otherwise you're automatically assumed to be a terrorist or criminal.

Heaven forbid they demand proof its me before allowing me to take money out of my bank account, or charge $ on my card, or get a loan.
Are you reading what you are writing? How in the heck do you call that slavery? Do you have any idea what being a slave actually means?

[edit on 21-9-2007 by mrsdudara]

Originally posted by mrsdudara
You are trying to tell me that none of my taxes goes to the military. I would love to see proof of this. Or is this just something you have made up?

Find me a law that says I have to pay income taxes.

Originally posted by mrsdudara
Your whole Russia invading us hardly applies.

Why not? Because you don't want to admit that they are the same situation?

Originally posted by mrsdudara
Oh wait, I forgot, Iraq was filled with happy people living in a perfect society holding hands and singing kumbaya.

When people know they are losing a debate, they resort to this.

No, it wasn't a happy place, but it was a hell of alot safer under the "dictator" that we armed with the chemical weapons he used. Since we've been there, more than 600,000 people have died. That's not counting the hundreds of thousands that died because of sanctions that we put on them in the years before the invasion.

Originally posted by mrsdudara
That has to be one of the most unAmerican things I have ever heard.

It's un-American to think that if we stop screwing with people that we'll be safer? It's un-American that I believe sacrificing liberty for security is wrong? I guess Benjamin Franklin was un-American too.

Am I un-American because I want a free nation, and not a nation that talks about being free? Am I un-American because I educate myself rather than being an ignorant follower of the government? Am I un-American because I use my Constitutional liberties?

Or do you just say I'm un-American because you have a hard time dealing with reality?

Originally posted by mrsdudara
I would rather deal with the "blow back" of being involved than deal with the consequences of disassociating ourselves from the world.

Who said we are disassociating ourselves from the world? Why do we have to have military dominance abroad and kill others to be considered "associated" with the world? Why does it take violence?

How about, as I said, holding talks with other nations and trading with other nations? That's as involved as we need to be.

Maybe you just have a thing for bombs going off in innocent nations. Does it give the average American a sense of importance or pleasure? That's pretty pathetic.

Originally posted by mrsdudara
There is a perfect example of how good we have it here in America. That kind of hell has never touched you or your life. You have never been imprisoned for owning a Christian bible, or stoned to death for haveing sex with someone someone else thought you shouldnt. You never had to watch your parents be tortured to death quite literaly because they disagreed with the government.

That's how you see the rest of the world, don't you? That's what the education system has taught you. It seems like you think there are probably two or three good nations in the world (US allies, of course), and every other nation, people get stoned for what they believe or get tortured. Perhaps you should study other nations.

How about Norway, just as an example. Norway, in international studies, is far better than the United States is almost every category from economy, to freedom of the press, to privacy, to civil liberties, to levels of corruption, and more. You don't see them running their mouth about being the greatest in the world, do you? You don't see them involving themselves in others' affairs, do you? Do you see Norway being attacked? They're free and have a good economy. That's what the terrorists hate, right?

Yeah, they hate our freedom and our money. So you know what the government is going to do to combat that? They're going to take away our freedoms and crash our economy. That should fix it.

It's sad that that strategy actually makes sense to Americans.

Originally posted by mrsdudara
It doesnt matter what kind of example you set, they still want you to die, and they will make that happen given the chance. Because you are a sinner/infidel in their eyes. But if you insist, then by all means, go over there and start setting an example.

I am talking about setting an example by fixing OUR COUNTRY. Forget them. We fix our nation, and then they will want to be like us.

Originally posted by mrsdudara
As for our education system, there is only so much you can fit into 7 hours.

Then why not cut out all the bs and start teaching things that matter?

Originally posted by mrsdudara
Every child is capable of getting a continuing education.

At a price.

Originally posted by mrsdudara
Heaven forbid they demand proof its me before allowing me to take money out of my bank account, or charge $ on my card, or get a loan.

Are you reading what you are writing? How in the heck do you call that slavery? Do you have any idea what being a slave actually means?

Clearly you are having a hard time understanding what I am saying, so I'll sum it up - you need permission to do anything in this country. Requesting permission from higher authority isn't freedom.

The educational system sure did a good job smearing the definition of freedom and fitting it with the twisted system we have in this country.

By the way, you never answered my last few questions on that last post. Please do.

[edit on 9/21/07 by NovusOrdoMundi]

I question everything. I am an ATS junkie after all. I am always searching for the truth. It is through my searching that i found some seriously cold and bitter truths. I would love for nothing more than world peace. Unfortunatly sometimes a fight is necessary, and for more reasons than I ever thought. I dont like it. I dont want innocent people to die. I would love for the world to really be the way I percieved it to be when I was a kid, before I ever started looking into the whys and the hows, and questioning everything. There are some truths that really stabbed me in the gut. The real honest to goodness truth is quite nauseating at best.

I dont feel above anyone else not in this country or any other. Everybody does things differently. Though I disagree with some of the beliefs, particularly the ones that insist you kill people because their religous beliefs are different, I have to give it to them. THey are passionate about what they believe in. I personally have always wanted to go see Russia.

You seem to have a serious problem with having to ask permission. How would you rather it be handled? What exactly would you do different?

As for the taxes, I asked you first. Actually I have done serious research into the matter, and there are legalities. If you can give me a couple of days I will be happy to point them out to you. My little girl happens to be sick right now, and I have very little time to be on the computer. There are laws that say you have to pay, and there are loop holes you can follow to keep from paying. There is a thread on here where one guy did get a judge to state he didnt owe his taxes. But in most instances it is a low that you have to pay income tax. I will back that up as i said, in a few days after my little girl gets to feeling better.

Originally posted by NovusOrdoMundi If we are to save this once great nation, we need to have a massive reorganization project of the government. The American people need to become more involved in politics and need to start demanding change. This government needs to be broken down and put back together.

This, I agree with you on 100%. Unfortunatly people avoid politics like the plague unless they are wanting to voice an opinion. There are so many opinions out there that are totaly opposite of each other, I wonder if there will ever be a compromise. Im starting to wonder if there isnt going to be a division instead.

Before I say anything, I want to apologize for some of the argumentative parts of my last post. I mentioned in a private message that I would edit them, but I forgot the edit function turns off after some time goes by. So disregard those parts of my post, please.

Originally posted by mrsdudara
Unfortunatly sometimes a fight is necessary, and for more reasons than I ever thought.

I agree, but you don't go looking for one. You don't provoke one. If someone has something in for you, then, well, you wait for them to come to you. Catch them in the act, then declare war. That leaves the opportunity open for innocent people to die before you stop a threat, I know. But that's just the unfair circumstances of the situation which cannot be changed.

But you don't sit around and wait for someone to attack you just so you can go to war. You don't look for a war. You don't look at this fleet of Russian bombers heading for Seattle and pretend they aren't there just so you can go to war.

The way you greatly reduce your chances of being attacked are to trade with all nations and talk with all nations. You're out of their business. You're out of their country. You're not treating them like a terrorist. And you're helping their economy. If they still hate you after all that, then they can be dealt with if they're a threat. The difference is, the world will notice that you are being as good to them as possible, and THEY will look like the war mongering nation rather than you.

It will be hard to restore our image in the world after what's gone on. There will be those that won't forget easy. But that doesn't mean continue on your current path of killing all of them.

Start a trend. Set an example. It'll pay off eventually.

Originally posted by mrsdudara
You seem to have a serious problem with having to ask permission. How would you rather it be handled? What exactly would you do different?

I believe it's unnecessary to gather all of this information for stupid purposes. I don't think there should be video cameras everywhere. I don't think we need to be chipped and given national ID cards.

It seems like it has become impossible to do anything for yourself without reporting to the government about what you're doing.

I mean if crime is that big of a deal for everything, and people are using the freedom to take advantage, then deal with those people. That's why we have police forces. If we stop putting money into unnecessary wars, we'd have more money for crime fighting. I have no problem with that. But to take away everyone's freedom because a few decide to take advantage - that's wrong.

Originally posted by mrsdudara
But in most instances it is a low that you have to pay income tax.

Have you ever watched "America: Freedom to Fascism"?

If you haven't, watch it her e
(1 hour 51 minutes)

I believed there was a law before I watched that. It's a good film.

Ok, before I go any further, here is that link

www.irs.gov...

That explains what is legal and what is not.

Constitutionally speaking, the 16th amendment was rattified and it states we have to pay taxes on all types of income and that the Secretary of treasury is to make sure they are collected. If that means having the IRS collect them then so be it.

I personally would change the fact that the governemnt gets paid. I do not think they should get paid for what they do. Except a very few jobs that demand full time positions. I think we would be much better off if they all lived in the real world just like we do. Treat it like the reserves or something.

Originally posted by NovusOrdoMundi[i/] It seems like it has become impossible to do anything for yourself without reporting to the government about what you're doing.

I do have to agree with you there. I dont care for it much myself. Its honestly quite spookey. I also hate to think of what it would be like with out any of it considering the population. The bigger the population, the more rules you have to have for safety sake.