Originally posted by MikeboydUS
Even if the guy was pulling a stunt it still does not justify the use of excessive force. The cops already had positive control of the subject. All they had to do was remove him from the building. Using the taser was unneccessary and excessive.

Think about this: If I did this to an unarmed Afghan civilian that I had in my positive control I would probably be facing legal action under UCMJ.

Then remember that guy no matter how idiotic he was is an American citizen. Think about it.

I'm not sure why people feel a tazer is the last resort before the need to shoot when the tazer has really repaced the need for pressure points (come alongs) chokeholds and clubs.

So what do you do when a civilian over there doesn't do what you tell them to do? I have flown 1000s of PUCs all over the place over there and I see what the Army does...hehe don't act so naïve.

Originally posted by Xtrozero
As I see it your freedom doesn’t give you the right to impede on another person's freedom, and your freedom doesn’t give you the right to resist the legal directions of a cop.

Exactly.
A lot of people seem confused by the difference between the Right of Free Speech and the means used to employ it.
For example, if you want to stand in your yard or a public park and implore passersby to fight for/against an issue, you have every right to do so - unimpeded by Government interaction. However, if you stand on your roof at 3 a.m. and shout your opinions through a bullhorn...Well guess what? Freedom of speech gets trumped here.
The issue is with his method - not his message.

Originally posted by passenger
if you stand on your roof at 3 a.m. and shout your opinions through a bullhorn...Well guess what? Freedom of speech gets trumped here.
The issue is with his method - not his message.

hardly an accurate comparison.

he was a student, in an academic setting, asking a question during a Q&A. How again is that anything like your example?

Originally posted by scientist

Originally posted by passenger
if you stand on your roof at 3 a.m. and shout your opinions through a bullhorn...Well guess what? Freedom of speech gets trumped here.
The issue is with his method - not his message.

hardly an accurate comparison.

he was a student, in an academic setting, asking a question during a Q&A. How again is that anything like your example?

He wasn't asking a question he was ranting and even said he had two more questions on top of the first one that really seemed like he was nowhere near getting to it. He was basically yelling at Kerry as to why he could have conceded the election so quickly. I hate Kerry, but I could still see the fool was disrupting everyone else’s chance to actually ask a question.



[edit on 19-9-2007 by Xtrozero]

Originally posted by scientist
he was a student, in an academic setting, asking a question during a Q&A. How again is that anything like your example?

To answer: He wasn't just asking "a" question, he was proselytizing. He was rambling and disruptive. He was in a public forum with (presumably) a pre-set standard of decorum and limitations on his speech. I've been to these things before, they let you know before you take the mike: "You've got 30 seconds, ask one question, etc". They obviously can't just let any jerk stand there as long as he wants and say whatever he wants. What if he wanted to just screech into the microphone for thirty minutes? What if he wanted to stand there and sing karaoke songs? Who knows how long this moron would have stood there and babbled if he hadn't been stopped?
Conclusion: He wasn't exercising his free speech he was abusing the forum and the right of the others present to engage in debate.

I think it comes down to what and where do you want to limit your rights to free speech? So what if he was a jerk, rambling and asking pointed questions that might actually be interesting? Here is a free civilian doing nothing more than running at the mouth and addressing his SENATOR face to face! and he is ARRESTED and subsequently tasered? If this does not seem to be unjust then you may justify any coercion under any cirmcumstance. Being an asshole is not in and by itself any reason for the coercive destruction of civil liberties: ESPECIALLY and pointedly within a political forum. What is much more disturbing is these officer's complete disavowal of the senator's own protests, the occurence within a public forum, the knowledge that this will and would be probably be video taped etc.; THEY DIDN'T CARE! The display of force and probably unfair physical tactics is much more important; the spread of fear takes precedance - they were well trained. What we see here is how civilians are being treated EVERY DAy. Just now it happens to be "in defense of.." what ... the senator? It is happening every day. Free speech is not a joke, or something to be taken for granted; it has to be exersized. The same goes for suppressing it.

Colbert JUST covered this on the show, and it was fantastic.

He was the only person in the media that even mentioned the Skull and bones question. He also called everyone out for being an armchair activist, and the people who sat by and just watched.

I doubt I could love another man any more, without crossing the line

I'm sure it will be on youtube in a few hours.

[edit on 19-9-2007 by scientist]

I think one of the most profound nuggets from this story we can walk away from is the fact that Kerry admitted to having read "Armed Mad House" by Greg Palast. Some of the fraudulent activity that has been aleged (ie: caging lists and disinfranchising minority voters) occured in the same county where this even took place.

What's more, the boy initially walked up to the mike, and thanked Kerry for being there and both had read the same book, so when the mike was finally cut off, and the police began to take him out and down, why didn't Kerry demand they let him go so he could anser...I mean he just kind of stood there and did nothing, just like he did after he knew he had actually won the election with all the documented fraud in Ohio, New Mexico, Florida and other places. We're talking millions of votes here. The book also suggests that the 2008 election has already been fixed to the tune of around 8,000,000 votes before the voting even begins!!! Europe has been talking about this for years in their media, but not here! Read the book, I mean the boy was willing to put his life on the line for it, and he is a journalist student.

Originally posted by mallory-john
I still think that his aggressive behaviour lead to the tease. He was on the ground and the cops couldnt get the cuffs on since he was acting like a maniac. In my eyes, there were no other way to size him. Otherwise they might had to break his shoulder / arm to get the cuffs on. And believe me, thats much more painful then getting a little tazer.

You are joking right?

You really think it is that difficult for 6 police officers to subdue that man and put him into one more cuff without breaking an arm or shoulder? If you do believe this, then you must not have any experience with take down manuevers, arm and wrist locks, or the power of 6 trained law officers. That guy was in no way a threat from the beginning nor until the point that he was already face down with only one arm out of cuffs and 6 officers on him. Please watch the video again, and again, and again if necessary. This was totally uncalled for and the officers invloved in the tasing, should be suspended, fined, and then put into desk jobs for the next year. After that, return them to normal duty with a warning. Officers that did not actually tase the student should be reprimanded, but thats about it. Yes they abused their power too, but not in such a manner that cannot be forgiven with a slap on the wrist. The one using the taser needs something a bit more intense to get the message through. In the mean time, the victim should be given a sum of around $100,000. Anything higher than that would be ridiculous. I think that sum shows enough remorse and also gets the message across.

I am a stock investor and I bought Taser (TASR) yesterday. This was one day after I watched the video with my wife and children. The stock appears to be breaking out and I got a recommendation from Mauthe.com. Does this make me evil? No.

The incident is clearly excessive force. My wife is a lawyer and after reviewing said that it was way beyond excessive to detain the subject. But then again these are college cops and in the pecking order of cops they are not really cops. My cousin was a college cop and was so bad he lost his job and is now a hospital cop. No offense to college or hospital cops.

I was proud of my son, fourth grade, who said that the incident was against the Bill of Rights. He learned about the Bill of Rights that day and my wife told him that was not true and explained why. So glad my son questions the authority. Well he does not question me yet and I hope that lasts another year or two but I doubt it.

Anyway, Taser is not responsible for this act the same way that the maker of the billy club or God, the maker of a cop's fist, is guilty in the olden days. My wife had a client that was Tasered and he was mentally ill and needed to be Tasered so he would not hurt himself or the cops. A good use of a good device.

Originally posted by Xtrozero


I'm not sure why people feel a tazer is the last resort before the need to shoot when the tazer has really repaced the need for pressure points (come alongs) chokeholds and clubs.

So what do you do when a civilian over there doesn't do what you tell them to do? I have flown 1000s of PUCs all over the place over there and I see what the Army does...hehe don't act so naïve.

The taser has not replaced the use of pressure points and compliance holds.

One of the things I learned when going through taser training is that the Taser's purpose is to prevent the use of deadly force when it is unnecessary.

For instance a 120lb female MP encounters a drunk and aggressive 200 plus lb. male soldier. Instead of using an ASP or PR-24 and possibly killing or seriously injuring him a Taser would be used.

Being a lazy cop is not an excuse to use excessive force. We trained once a week in pressure points, holds, and takedowns. There is a reason for training and the word is proficiency. Not being proficient is not an excuse for excessive force.

When I was there if we had positive control of someone we would not zap them. Thats what pressure points and holds are for. People normally comply when in an Armbar or armlock. If they dont you take them down and restrain them. The pain involved is far more humane than a taser. I still have two scars, one in the shoulder and the other my hip, from where the prongs left burns during taser training. I have never seen anyone get a scar from an armbar or pressure point.

One point that was emphasized in training was never use it to punish or inflict unneccessary pain. That is called torture.

I'm not sure what you saw, but my unit had very high professional standards and we did not torture our detainees or abuse them. When we pucked people as in raid they got roughed up a bit in the process of gaining positive control but once we had restraints they either complied or we lead them around in an armbar. If they still wanted to be an idiot we would taken them down and restrain their feet and essentially drag/pull/push/carry them.

mikeboydUS, thanks for your truly expert opinion.
too bad that your attitude isn't the prevailing one with cops. too bad that people with noble intentions are used to further the yoke of the central banks' power over the common chattel.

funny that all this strife in the world is the result of ONE thing, ie: the federal reserve.

Are you guys kidding? He was being aggressive and beligerant from the moment he got the mike! He was cut off, told to sit down, got loud(er) and refused to act civilized. If I was a blue blood reptilian like Kerry, I'd have taken my .322 ion gun and burned him a new one for being a jackass. He resisted the officers and got what people get for being stupid. I think you guys kool ade has something besides sugar in it.

I think that what happened at the kerry event was a one hundred percent violation of the constitution. I feel that too much is kept secret. Everyone in American wants to know what the skull and bones is and why it is that the majority of the people at the top of the pyramid scheme meet at bohemian grove and engage in what seems like very unusual rituals. If these people have to hide what they are doing from the public, then there just might be something ominous about the whole thing after all...!@#$ing REPTILES! Remember guys, martial law is just a blink away, the one question on my mind is... will we stop passing the buck, saying "well what am I going to do about it, I am just one person, I don't count" and that is just what they want you to think and say, it's all apart of the programming. The only thing that guy who got tazed did wrong is that he didn't get together the people or the paper work. It takes alot alot alot of people. It's time to get organized and then get some answers befor it's too late. Hell, the majority of us only have a little more than four years befor the brown dwarf star niburu or wormwood passes, and then it will have been too late. #E will have already hitith the fannith! If anyone has any comments on what I have just said, my myspace is examineenimaxe@myspace.com under contimplate or my email is dcook81@gmail.com, and lets be serious guys no crumby emails!!! Peace is one love.