Charms, spells and incantations. Tools? Real or not necassary?

Ok. I've never believed in any of that herbs and rocks (crystals) and such. Never believed any of the incantaions and spells ect.

But, different things are starting to filter into my life now and I'm starting to wonder about these things.

Who has first hand experience, possative or negative?

And for those who do know something about these things, let's just sy (for discussion purposes), that these things are in fact real and do work. Ok. So this stuff works. Isn't it those like in Wicca and such that use these things.....what about people who don't need these tools for other things, do they still need the 'stuff'?

Ang

I have seen enough wierd stuff to allow me to put some credence into talismans, incantations and spells....but alot of these things rely on the human mind to give them any strength.

talismans, incantations and spells only work if the recipient is open to such things. I mean they would have to believe in whatever is being told or said.

I do believe in the power of certain "mantras" words, phrases which give my mind power to overcome certain obstacles....but again I don't know if it is magic or just my mind?

I don't know much about the Wicca aspect of these things so I really can't comment on if their stuff works.

What you said, things rely on the human mind to give them strength. I guess that's the real question. Is it all the human mind, energy, spirity, will......or do any of those things they use (crystals, stones, herbs, whatevers, do any of those things, words included, actulay add to the stringth or outcome of the event.

(this - if we consider the person doing these things to be believing that the human mind and strength is the tool, NOT the things they are using.) I think alot of things are only possible with certain maeasure for some just because they need the ritual to center or ground themselves. Those that can center, ground, relax into their needed place don't need the rituals (IMO)

Originally posted by worldwatcher
I have seen enough wierd stuff to allow me to put some credence into talismans, incantations and spells....but alot of these things rely on the human mind to give them any strength.

talismans, incantations and spells only work if the recipient is open to such things. I mean they would have to believe in whatever is being told or said.

I do believe in the power of certain "mantras" words, phrases which give my mind power to overcome certain obstacles....but again I don't know if it is magic or just my mind?

I don't know much about the Wicca aspect of these things so I really can't comment on if their stuff works.

I believe such tools can help a person to achieve his 'magikal' goals, but I think in some context, it's just the symbolism attached to it that makes it work.

In other words, they can be usefull and helpfull, but no, they are not always necessary.

People like chaos magicians beleive that all theses "tools" are symbolic and not really necessary for the magik to work. They think they're "bells & whisltes".

I believe that too, but I don't have any first hand experience, and I also believe that these "tools" can strengthen your faith that it will work, therefore you have more self-confidence and more chances it will work.

The hardest part is always, in any ways, to erase the doubts, even unconscious doubts.

sorry - double post

[Edited on 21-1-2004 by m0rbid]

Originally posted by worldwatcher
I have seen enough wierd stuff to allow me to put some credence into talismans, incantations and spells....but alot of these things rely on the human mind to give them any strength.

talismans, incantations and spells only work if the recipient is open to such things.

That's also similar to what I think. In other words, you could just take about any object, and it would work just as well as a talisman or a rock. If you really have a lot of imagination, strong will and determination.

I believe that herbs are a bit different tho, they don't fit in the same category.

[Edited on 21-1-2004 by m0rbid]

So you feel pretty much as I do then. Some may need them just for the confidence, but it is not the tool that is actualy at work.

Originally posted by m0rbid
I believe such tools can help a person to achieve his 'magikal' goals, but I think in some context, it's just the symbolism attached to it that makes it work.

In other words, they can be usefull and helpfull, but no, they are not always necessary.

People like chaos magicians beleive that all theses "tools" are symbolic and not really necessary for the magik to work. They think they're "bells & whisltes".

I believe that too, but I don't have any first hand experience, and I also believe that these "tools" can strengthen your faith that it will work, therefore you have more self-confidence and more chances it will work.

The hardest part is always, in any ways, to erase the doubts, even unconscious doubts.

I really don't know AngelaladyS, but your question is valid.

I cannot rule out that perhaps certain objects, herbs, etc may in fact enhance the powers of the mind.

I mean marijuana allows me to fall into a meditative state much more easily than without.

so who is to say that certain crystal combined with the power of the mind opens portals to another dimension?

but I have also seen objects considered "sacred" that just sort have its own vibe (you know what I mean?) like you can feel or sense the power or vibe that issues on its own without any human involvement?

or could it be that these "sacred objects" just retain the vibes issued from human handlers????

From a Wiccans point of view....

These "tools" are not really necessary. Most of us (wiccan or not) already know weather we need them or not. However, there are some things such as herbs, incense and some rocks, that contain an energy, or certain "awakening" energy that allows certain strengths to open up greater.

Personally, I have never used crystals or rocks for any "mystical" purpose. However, I am well aware of the power some believe them to hold. This power is none other than a life energy like our own, and this energy can either compliment our own, or be a negative factor against our own (negative meaning to calm, not to harm, certain senses).

Certain fragrences (frankencense, jasmine etc) have properties to awaken certain areas of the subconcious to achieve a certain goal. Frankencense is TOPS for achieving greater levels of meditation. I use it often when I have too much outside influence to achieve good meditation.

The biggest problem with these "tools" however, is the belief in them. If you outright refuse to believe they will help you in any way, they won't. If you think they could, and give them a try many times, they probably will help. And, if you are like myself and KNOW they can, they will help out a lot.

My best advice is to research the different incense aromas and what they do for you. Start with them, then work into talismans and crystals. This is what I was advised to do when turning to wicca, and, since I have had luck with it, I advise the same.

Blessed Be

Whitewolf

Angela

Yeah, I believe that the "real" work is accomplished by the mind of the practicer it-self.

Worldwatcher

Hehehehe...That's partialy why I said I think herbs are a bit different than other innanimate objects.

I haven't personnally feeled a vibe in some special objects, but nor did I ever been in presence of those so-called special objects, so I can't really talk about that.

But if some objects were really to be special, I would believe it is probably because, maybe when it was made or maybe afterall, someone concentrated a high level of energy in this object, and wished that the object would conserve this inner energy so it would carry with it special powers. I think this is totally possible.

I don't know if one with this special ability could 'charge' some energy in any object, or it has to be a special (or 'sacred) objects tho.

Originally posted by m0rbid

Originally posted by worldwatcher

I believe that herbs are a bit different tho, they don't fit in the same category.

[Edited on 21-1-2004 by m0rbid]

Tell me about this please? You feel that the herbs have more cridibility, that they may indeed have bearing where the other tools do not.

Well, some herbs have special caracteristics that are revealed only when consumned in some way or another.

That's what I meant. I think they can alter our mind, and that's what makes 'em (well - some herbs) special, not the symbolism that we give them, but really their inner hidden power. (like marijuana altering the mind state - some herbs procuding drownsing effect, some hallucinogenic, etc etc...)

I'm so glad you joined in this thread.
I know what you mean. I was wondering, but not wanting to get too many closely linked thoughts going on to confuss anyuone.....a charm for instance.
It would begin as a pretty stone basicaly, nothing special about it. Because of the handler, the stone can them become the charm. Now this charm, which does great good for the handler, I wonder if it would benefit a recipient the same way? (Especialy if the recipient had no idea it was a charm). That would give us a good 'test' of sorts. See if these things are mind over matter or if there is actualy a residue of energy that encompasses or stays withing the item.

Originally posted by worldwatcher
I really don't know AngelaladyS, but your question is valid.

I cannot rule out that perhaps certain objects, herbs, etc may in fact enhance the powers of the mind.

I mean marijuana allows me to fall into a meditative state much more easily than without.

so who is to say that certain crystal combined with the power of the mind opens portals to another dimension?

but I have also seen objects considered "sacred" that just sort have its own vibe (you know what I mean?) like you can feel or sense the power or vibe that issues on its own without any human involvement?

or could it be that these "sacred objects" just retain the vibes issued from human handlers????

ImAlreadyPsycho

Hey, it's interesting to get a Wiccan point of view here. I know that lots of Wiccan rituals involve a lot of accessories & symbolism (clothes, candles, etc..) from having read a few wiccan books etc.. But I guess that downside the road, it's the practicer who really have to chose, if he gives importance or not, to all theses accessories. Or chose what works the best for him.

What search word would you use to look up a list of these things?
Oh - and what on earth is a witches arua? I know I'd have been burned at the stake in Salem, but I've never thought of myself a a witch. I though of witches (weatrher it is a real thing or not)...to be those who were not born with gifts, but instead gather together to produce a gifts benefits.

Kind of like some people are born with ability, and a witch is a person not born of ability but who learns ability through other methods. Is this a god idea of the meening?

Originally posted by ImAlreadyPsycho
From a Wiccans point of view....

These "tools" are not really necessary. Most of us (wiccan or not) already know weather we need them or not. However, there are some things such as herbs, incense and some rocks, that contain an energy, or certain "awakening" energy that allows certain strengths to open up greater.

Personally, I have never used crystals or rocks for any "mystical" purpose. However, I am well aware of the power some believe them to hold. This power is none other than a life energy like our own, and this energy can either compliment our own, or be a negative factor against our own (negative meaning to calm, not to harm, certain senses).

Certain fragrences (frankencense, jasmine etc) have properties to awaken certain areas of the subconcious to achieve a certain goal. Frankencense is TOPS for achieving greater levels of meditation. I use it often when I have too much outside influence to achieve good meditation.

The biggest problem with these "tools" however, is the belief in them. If you outright refuse to believe they will help you in any way, they won't. If you think they could, and give them a try many times, they probably will help. And, if you are like myself and KNOW they can, they will help out a lot.

My best advice is to research the different incense aromas and what they do for you. Start with them, then work into talismans and crystals. This is what I was advised to do when turning to wicca, and, since I have had luck with it, I advise the same.

Blessed Be

Whitewolf

Originally posted by AngelaLadyS
Now this charm, which does great good for the handler, I wonder if it would benefit a recipient the same way? (Especialy if the recipient had no idea it was a charm). That would give us a good 'test' of sorts. See if these things are mind over matter or if there is actualy a residue of energy that encompasses or stays withing the item.

Lets approach this from the stand point of life energy.

Reiki is used in many cases to heal through energy transfer. The energy is tranfered from human to human or human to animal. In this case, we are speaking of an inanimate object. The energy can definitely be transfered, however, it depends on the purpose. It can be transfered from me to the rock easily. Then, if the rock is given to someone, two things could happen to "alter" the other person. THe energy from me can transfer from that rock to them, or, the rock could absorb their energy that is causing the problem.

The thing with this is, the rock will have to be "programmed" in a way, so that the energy transfer is done as intended. Another issue is, how much energy CAN transfer. If you can't transfer enough, there will likely be absolutely no effect.

Thoughts?

morbid has more insight on the herbs than I do, but my theory is herbs should definitely have some sort of effect on a person just not "magical"
I mean every herb ingested, inhaled, whatever, will cause some sort chemical/physical reaction in your body.
like weed makes me high and meditative, chamomile (is that how you spell it) when brewed in a tea, makes me sleepy.
those herbs have no "magical properties" just the combination of the herbs and the human physiology
causes various effects.

now I am not sure about the objects. personally I have a black onyx necklace, that I refuse to remove on any occasion. WHY? because I don't feel balanced or right without it. It's not a talisman in the traditional sense, no one blessed it, chanted over it or anything like that. It was gift, I loved it and when I put it on, I felt good...now when I take it off, something is missing...so in a way I guess it became a talisman for me.

now on the other hand, I know people who have talismans to protect them from something. Children in my culture wear "black and white bead" on their wrist to protect them from the evil eye, that kind of thing, these people put alot of credence into this, unfortunately, I have no proof if it does or does not work.

Originally posted by m0rbid
If you really have a lot of imagination, strong will and determination.

I agree with this 100%. It's called intent. All religions use these charms and spells in one form or another. Even christianity, although they'll call it by different names.

In this thread I have links to two sites, which show what is needed to perform any kind of magic.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Exactly. Wicca is a spirituality path of comfortability. If one is uncomfortable with using a certain "tool", don't.

Funny this is brought up actually. I was having this exact conversation with a person searching for themselves and questioning my faith. They were interested. They were worried about alters and tools etc.

My wife is Lutheran. No way would I have an alter in my home, as I would feel as though I was alienating her and her faith. I am one that feels everyone needs to believe in something, and what they believe is not important. But believe. Therefore, my wiccan alter is within my heart, not an exterior alter. This is for comfort.

All tools in the wiccan way are the same. Not everyone is comfortable pointing an athame (black handled double edged knife for the layman) in the air and chanting. I would, but don't due to the discomfort I pick up from others.

Originally posted by m0rbid
ImAlreadyPsycho

Hey, it's interesting to get a Wiccan point of view here. I know that lots of Wiccan rituals involve a lot of accessories & symbolism (clothes, candles, etc..) from having read a few wiccan books etc.. But I guess that downside the road, it's the practicer who really have to chose, if he gives importance or not, to all theses accessories. Or chose what works the best for him.

This is the thought going through my head as well.
A few months ago I was wondering by a rack of items and something caught my eye as I passed. Out of 100's of stones on a regular old black string was one that I had to have. It wasn't the prettiest, didn't match my clothing or any outfit I had, nothing about it looked especialy great. But that was the one I felt I needed to buy. I've not taken it off since.
So, in reguards to reiki/charms/visualising and distance energy transfer....here I am with the energiezed stone.

It was after an especialy eventful grounding yesterday morning that I stumbled across the text about energy and charms ect. So I tried and I'll be darned if I didn't notice a difference in yesterday. I wonder if I could do the same for another person without telling them what I was giving them.

(after the attunement this person seems very capable of picking up on my energy, even when I try to still it!)

Originally posted by ImAlreadyPsycho

Originally posted by AngelaLadyS
Now this charm, which does great good for the handler, I wonder if it would benefit a recipient the same way? (Especialy if the recipient had no idea it was a charm). That would give us a good 'test' of sorts. See if these things are mind over matter or if there is actualy a residue of energy that encompasses or stays withing the item.

Lets approach this from the stand point of life energy.

Reiki is used in many cases to heal through energy transfer. The energy is tranfered from human to human or human to animal. In this case, we are speaking of an inanimate object. The energy can definitely be transfered, however, it depends on the purpose. It can be transfered from me to the rock easily. Then, if the rock is given to someone, two things could happen to "alter" the other person. THe energy from me can transfer from that rock to them, or, the rock could absorb their energy that is causing the problem.

The thing with this is, the rock will have to be "programmed" in a way, so that the energy transfer is done as intended. Another issue is, how much energy CAN transfer. If you can't transfer enough, there will likely be absolutely no effect.

Thoughts?