Can The Govt Get Their Story Straight? - Location Of Flight Data Recorder

09/16/07 - As many already know, the data supplied by the National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) does not support the government story of American Airlines Flight 77 impact with the Pentagon on September 11, 2001 (see Pandora's Black Box - Chapter Two - Flight Of American 77 for detailed analysis). Some have argued how could the data not support an impact when the FDR was found inside the Pentagon? We feel that is a great question and one we have been trying to get Government agencies to explain. Full Article



[edit on 16-9-2007 by johndoex]

Ok, so here are the facts according to what's on the Pandora's Box website:

One gov't report sez they found 2 black boxes in a cockpit seat/floor combo attached to the floor piece that was found at the entrance of the impact hole.

Yet, the black box or boxes for this type of aircraft were supposed to be in the tail of the plane, not the cockpit.

Yet, another gov't report sez a black box was found at the exit hole somewhere.

Yet, the aircraft itself only had 2 blackboxes.

Yet, they are saying 3 were found.

And why haven't we been shown photographs of that intact cockpit seat and floor combo where the first 2 black boxes were found?

So whatever the case may be, one thing is clear; the intent of each of these gov't investigating entities was to confuse the public as to all matters concerning any information about those boxes.

And the fact that we can't get any more information on all of this beyond what we already have -- stinks to high heavens! It's clear as day that they are hiding something.

If they didn't have anything to hide then they would be releasing all of the information about that crash to the public right?

Yet, it's been a whopping 6 years now since the day of that crash! What in the dan hill is going on here??


[edit on 16-9-2007 by Palasheea]

You pretty much nailed it..

Also keep in mind gentlemen that the Pentagon only had a few frames showing the impact, if you even want to call it a video clip. How come all those tapes from nearby secruity cameras were confiscated?

Originally posted by 5ubc0nsc10u5
Also keep in mind gentlemen that the Pentagon only had a few frames showing the impact, if you even want to call it a video clip. How come all those tapes from nearby secruity cameras were confiscated?

Not only did they confiscate the tapes but they took down some cameras from the gas station.

Here is a statement from an FBI agent stating that a tape from the Doubletree Hotel did not show anything.

www.infowars.net...

This brings up 2 questions.

1. Why did they confiscate the tape when their was nothing on it?

2. Why did they wait so long to come out and say there was nothing on it?




[edit on 16-9-2007 by ULTIMA1]

Some believe that researching the pentagon is a honeypot in that all inconsistencies within the official story will be wiped away "once they release a clear image of a 757".


I say it will only hurt "their" case if they try to release such a video/image so late in the game. It will no doubt gain worldwide exposure, and those who havent been researching 9/11 before will be asking themselves, "They had this clear image all this time and waited so long to release it while so many people have been demanding answers? Something isnt right..."

I know from personal experience due to the fact similar a scenario "woke me up" to start my research last year

typo


[edit on 17-9-2007 by johndoex]

So I guess the significance of this is what, that the boxes weren't found there t all, since there was no impact, and the cover stories they've put out are inconsistent?

I dunno but my best guess is they found the CVR where the cockpit hit (that is in the front, right?) and the FDR by the exit hole as they said. From what I know of the crash dynamics that makes sense. Then the story that said both were found up front was somehow wrong. Reporters make small mistakes all the time.

Big deals made over loose definition of what constitutes "the government's story" make me laugh.

And I don't buy AJ's definition of honeypot here. He's another 16-footer, no parts, etc. guy - just like the police state that's always imminent, just around the corner, it's another trademark alarmist thing like he does. Hell, most of the real clowns out there give serious credence to WTC TV fakery BS implying real-time world-wide multi-network multi-angle CGI inserion of fully rendered 767s impacting synchronized perfectly with the fakery explosions and possibly holograms to fool the eye-witnesses (I'm not up to-date on the current details of this theory).

Anyway, I'm certain no stupid little video will change their minds or yours that whatever happened at the Pentagon is still mysterious.

Originally posted by Caustic Logic
I dunno but my best guess is they found the CVR where the cockpit hit (that is in the front, right?) and the FDR by the exit hole as they said.

"...the two spotted an intact seat from the plane’s cockpit with a chunk of the floor still attached. Then they saw two odd-shaped dark boxes, about 1.5 by 2 feet long.... Pentagon officials said the recorders, also called "black boxes" were found around 3:40 a.m. under mounds of wreckage in the collapsed part of the building.." (MSNBC Sept 28). "Dick Bridges, a spokesman for Arlington County, Va...said the recorders were found 'right where the plane came into the building"

note the word "recorders" as in plural...

So they found two recorders at the entrance hole under the collapsed part of the building and one FDR at the exit hole? That would make 3 "recorders" total. I thought aircraft only have 2 black boxes.

Both recorders are in the tail of every aircraft. It is the most survivable part of the plane.



typo


[edit on 20-9-2007 by johndoex]

This is the paragraph that johndoex has on his site.

The Flight Data Recorder (FDR) was found early in the morning of September 14, 2001. Government reports indicate the FDR was found at the entrance hole of the collapsed E ring. "...the two spotted an intact seat from the plane’s cockpit with a chunk of the floor still attached. Then they saw two odd-shaped dark boxes, about 1.5 by 2 feet long.... Pentagon officials said the recorders, also called "black boxes" were found around 3:40 a.m. under mounds of wreckage in the collapsed part of the building.." (MSNBC Sept 28). "Dick Bridges, a spokesman for Arlington County, Va...said the recorders were found 'right where the plane came into the building.'" (PBS - Sept 14).

Early Friday morning, shortly before 4 a.m., Burkhammer and another firefighter, Brian Moravitz, were combing through debris near the impact site. Peering at the wreckage with their helmet lights, the two spotted an intact seat from the plane’s cockpit with a chunk of the floor still attached. Then they saw two odd-shaped dark boxes, about 1.5 by 2 feet long. They’d been told the plane’s “black boxes” would in fact be bright orange, but these were charred black. The boxes had handles on one end and one was torn open. They cordoned off the area and called for an FBI agent, who in turn called for someone from the National Transportation Safety Board who confirmed the find: the black boxes from American Airlines Flight 77. “We wanted to find live victims,” says Burkhammer. But this was a consolation prize. “Finding the black box gave us a little boost,” he says.

Here's the MSNBC link.

Bridges said the recorders were found "right where the plane came into the building."

From the PBS link.

Three things to note:
1. The first source does not state where the black boxes were found.
2. The first source does not state that the black boxes were attached to the section of the floor with the seat from the cockpit.
3. The second source states that the black boxes were found right where the plane came into the building.

However, The ASCE Building Performance Report and a new book published by the Dept Of Defense claims the FDR was found at the exit hole in the C-Ring. "[FDR] found in the building near the hole in the inner C Ring wall leading to A-E Drive." (Undertow quoting new DoD Book).

The above external source is from pilotsfor9/11truth. It links to a forum post that says,The caption for the photo in the book says
"[FDR] found in the building near the hole in the inner C Ring wall leading to A-E Drive." Link.
I could not find the source for the caption underneath the photo.

This is what we have so far.

1. One source that says the black boxes were found near where the aircraft went into the building.
2. There is no source that says the black boxes were attached to the floor that was attached to the cockpit seat.
3. There is one unsourcable link that says a caption underneath a photograph states that the black boxes were found near the C-Ring exit hole.

What's my point? I guess it would be that maybe the government does have their story straight after all and maybe we shouldn't jump to conclusions on sketchy ''evidence''.

Source ASCE stating FDR was found at exit hole -



www.fire.nist.gov...

Source Dept Of Defense Stating FDR was found at Exit Hole...


(You'll have to buy the DoD book to confirm above picture available here)


The other sources stating both recorders were found near cockpit seat and floor "where the plane came into the building" under the "collapsed portion of the building" can be found in the original article and above links.

They conflict.


typo

[edit on 21-9-2007 by johndoex]

deleted, double post

[edit on 21-9-2007 by johndoex]

As they trudged through the smoky darkness in the Pentagon's C Ring shortly before 4 a.m. Friday, Fairfax County firefighters Carlton Burkhammer and Brian Moravitz scanned the debris with their helmet lights, still hopeful of finding someone alive. Moments after spotting a chair from the cockpit of American Airlines Flight 77, their beams flashed on two charred black boxes.

Washington Post.com

Maybe it was just Dick Bridges, a spokesman for Arlington County, Va. authorities, who couldn't get his story straight.


[edit on 21-9-2007 by Boone 870]

Maybe it was Dick Bridges, spokesman for Arlington, VA and MSNBC who couldnt get their story straight days after the event... maybe it was the boogieman..

You are certainly entitled to make any excuse you want. I prefer to stick to facts. The fact remains, there are conflicts within the story.

One has to decide for themself at what point to stop making excuses and start to raise their BS flag. For me, it was last year...

patriotsquestion911.com...

eta: by the way. .nice link you provided Boone. The site looks very professional.. (rolleyes).. not to mention completely misleading. Next time please provide a link to the Wash Post when you state as such.




[edit on 21-9-2007 by johndoex]

reply to post by johndoex


Here's theGoogle search page that I found the link on.

If you will notice, the third link down says Washington Post.com. That is a link to a PDF and if you click it you will notice that it goes to an error page. Now go down one line and you will see view as an HTML. That is the link that I posted.

Originally posted by Caustic Logic
and the FDR by the exit hole as they said. From what I know of the crash dynamics that makes sense.

Problem is the tail of the plane could not have been found at the exit point, as it clearly goes over the top of the building...



But people keep ignoring this...

Also as mentioned where are the pictures of the seat, the tail section? If they were really there as they claim, then I see no reason for them to not release these pics. Anyone can make up a cover story/lie (and yes the gov does that all the time) but with nothing to back it up then it's just empty words.

They could so easily put this to rest and prove a 757 did in fact hit the pentagoon, but they either choose not to (kinda odd) or they're lying and covering up. It's pretty obvious to me which it is...

Yes, the ASCE unequivocally placed the FDR at the exit hole. Maybe someone just tossed it in there from the A-E drive. So how could two boxes be found at the entry hole? I think we all agree there are two recorders only and they didn't start walking around. So... someone is mixed up. My "error" flag has gone up. My BS flag is up too, but that's just from JDX being around.

Rob;
None of us can prove the FDR did or didn't come from the Pentagon. Least of all with some confused media or official reports when so much of what they've done, especially over the Pentagon, is shoddy enough it seems designed to create confusion like this. So yeah, maybe the two boxes were found up front and a third one planted, if that's your gist. Maybe not. We're left with the data itself, which you guys feel came from the planted one, and while they could plant this they couldn't get the right data on it so they could mail it straight to you guys to discover the holes. Brilliant plan!

I'm done with placement questions for now. Nice attempt to prop up your non-theories.

BTW, Rob, check my working copy blog post at my blog regarding the non-rotated map. You can imagine how much fun this'll be when I get the text all filled in.



[edit on 21-9-2007 by Caustic Logic]

reply to post by ANOK


Anok, that is an interesting bit of debris, but I can't ID it. It looks too small to be the 40-foot-high tail section. Maybe one bent horiz. stabilizer? Or something.

And again with the easy to put to rest thing. Again, it's obvious they WANT mystery here. It's a symbiotic relationship since so many "truthers" also want endless mystery. Myself I want answers and look for coherent, logical synthesis. Call me crazy. Others prefer questions that never get answered, which is why they cultivate their FBI/NTSB contact tree to offer up batches of fruitless fruit every eason to prove how 'mysterious' it all remains and provide a base from which their silly analysis seems to make sense.

Originally posted by Caustic Logic
Yes, the ASCE unequivocally placed the FDR at the exit hole. Maybe someone just tossed it in there from the A-E drive.

speculation

So how could two boxes be found at the entry hole?

Great question.. have you considered to ask the source? We have...

I think we all agree there are two recorders only and they didn't start walking around. So... someone is mixed up. My "error" flag has gone up. My BS flag is up too, but that's just from JDX being around.

Im glad i was able to get you to think more critically...

Rob;
None of us can prove the FDR did or didn't come from the Pentagon.

No.. really? Perhaps that would change if the NTSB/FBI started to answer questions for those with proper credentials? Ya think?

Least of all with some confused media or official reports when so much of what they've done, especially over the Pentagon, is shoddy enough it seems designed to create confusion like this.

Create confusion? Was that intentional or on purpose. You can make excuses.. i'll try to look for facts.

So yeah, maybe the two boxes were found up front and a third one planted,

speculation

if that's your gist.

Strawman

Maybe not.

speculation

We're left with the data itself

Now you're getting the point...

which you guys feel came from the planted one

Strawman, please quote with source.

and while they could plant this they couldn't get the right data on it so they could mail it straight to you guys to discover the holes. Brilliant plan!

Speculation.

When have you contacted the NTSB/FBI putting your name on your claims? Any certificates issued by the FAA that might be in jeopardy if you do question such agencies? Do you think anyone who questions a govt agenciy might not be putting their name/accomplishments on the line?

I'm done with placement questions for now. Nice attempt to prop up your non-theories.

Im not surprised since theory and speculation is all you have offered.

BTW, Rob, check my working copy blog post at my blog regarding the non-rotated map. You can imagine how much fun this'll be when I get the text all filled in.

No thanks.. i think i have already put your foot in your mouth more than enough.. no need to read your blog tonight...

By the way. .have you corrected the Fetzer blog you misinterpreted? (to be polite). I havent bothered to check.

Bottom line.. im almost convinced that the NIST can come out with a report saying they found explosive residue in the WTC debris as some will no doubt make excuses.

The Perps will laugh as we all argue.

The people who put their names and professional reputations on the line holding NIST feet to the fire will no doubt attempted to be discredited/neutralized by anonymous individuals on the net such as we have seen.

Now.. lets replace "NIST" with "NTSB/FBI"

The data provided by the NTSB/FBI does not support an impact. The NTSB/FBI refuses to comment to those who place their name/experience/credentials on this work.

Some feel the need to make excuses behind their screens in the apparent attempt to stall progress.

Bottom line.

Yeah, I updated that piece. All I did was cross out the errored sentence and add the note:
"update 9/15: As Rob has pointed out to me, the crossed-out statement above is wrong - based on a misreading. Aplogies to have miseld with this sloppiness. They worked together on the corrections, as is obvious when I look back. In pennance, a gratis link to his unfiltered words." (link to the debunking piece).

Too bad you don't want to see how the map is rotated. Thought you might want a heads up, but I guess you're used enough to being debunked that it's no crisis.

So the FBI and NTSB still ain't answering questions? Great for you. Again, it seems they're covering something up, and it's of course probably what you have found, so hey, free advertising. I don't feel like wasting my time with the agencies and waiting for their answers (plus it makes me nervous). Luckily I have no credentials or reputation to risk but the NTSB anyway has my name on file. So I figure out what I can on my own and based on the work of others.

I appreciate that you guys do the same. If only you'd be right more often instead of just "truthy"... As for stalling progress, just keep on truckin'. I don't mean to stand in your way, I'm just on a different path.