Death doesn't make sense according to physics

Originally posted by polomontana
1) There's no reasonable doubt that U.F.O.'s and the beings who fly them exist.

2) We send people to jail based on the reason of 12 individuals. Any lawyer worth his/her salt will tell you that eyewitnes testimony (direct evidence) is desired in a case over circumstantial evidence but circumstantial evidence is enough to come to a reasonable conclusion. Scott Peterson was sent to death row based on largely circumstantial evidence.
3) About the psychic there's story after story like the one I posted.

[edit on 18-9-2007 by polomontana]

1) Physical or mathematical evidence of UFOs AND the beings that fly them?

2) Standards of proof in science are much more strict. Remember when hundreds of people were let off of death row due to wrong convictions? The kind of logic in the court system is corrupt and shouldn't be carried over other things.

3) And 99% of them have been proved to be hoaxes. There's a reason no one has one Randi's $1,000,000.

[edit on 9/18/07 by RedDragon]

Originally posted by polomontana
1) The universe is energy and information.

2) It's a quantum computer. You are a quantum computation. When you drink a glass of water, computation is taking place. When you open up a present computation is taking place. When you do these thing bits of information is being converted into its that we observe and that takes energy and information.

3) You can't "die" because because you are energy born into a potential reality within our bubble universe. It's very elegant and simple. The universe is the hardrive, we are the software and the laws of physics are the computer language.


4) Here's another interview with Seth Lloyd in Wired.

www.wired.com...

Also, you can't be destroyed unless the universe is destroyed. That could occur if two bubble universes collide. Some speculate, that's what caused the big bang. Even then your pocket universe may not be destroyed, just another bubble universe will branch of of our universe.

[edit on 18-9-2007 by polomontana]

1) and matter, space, and time.

2) You took a huge, unsubstantiated leap there. No, it's not. It can be described with computations but it is not a computer because it's not representing anything; the universe is the universe. After that, you went into something similar to schizophrenic talk soup. There was no logic to anything you said.

3) The reasoning does not support your conclusion. Your conclusion is wrong. Death is possible.

4) You have no idea what Lloyd or you are talking about. Lloyd is saying that there is nothing spiritual about the universe and thus it can be completely explained with computations. We could build a computer that could represent the Universe- including human "choices" because the human mind is just a machine like a cell phone, operating in the same laws of physics with nothing supernatural about it. He would agree that dieing is the same thing as cutting a wire in a cell phone; a part of you breaks, like your heart or kidney, and the rest of your machine can't operate thus you turn off or "die". Essentially, he's saying the exact opposite of what you're saying and completely agreeing with me.

Lloyd is a scientist, not a crackpot spiritualitist.

[edit on 9/18/07 by RedDragon]

Originally posted by polomontana


You can't "die" because because you are energy born into a potential reality within our bubble universe. It's very elegant and simple. The universe is the hardrive, we are the software and the laws of physics are the computer language.


Also, you can't be destroyed unless the universe is destroyed. That could occur if two bubble universes collide. Some speculate, that's what caused the big bang. Even then your pocket universe may not be destroyed, just another bubble universe will branch of of our universe.

[edit on 18-9-2007 by polomontana]

Been reading this thread for a long while now and it's quite an interesting one. However, i would just like to say that, just because your energy cannot be destroyed (conservation of energy) doesn't mean you cannot die. Of course all your energy in chemical form will be transfered elsewhere while you are alive and after you die. However just because your energy isn't destroyed doesn't mean you are conscious. You're consciousness must come from your physical body, and much of the way our brains work has been tested and proved, although we do not fully understand the intricate circuits as we do in a Computer, as they are biological and much more complex.

Another thing that i would like to add is: Were you conscious before you were born?! I think not. Since even in your arguements - Energy can neither be created or destroyed - then why didn't you have self awareness and such before you were born?

That is unless you believe the universe was instantly created as you were born, which is unlikely.

There may be an existence of a "soul" but even so, how is it created when you are born or if it is created before, why don't you remember? This means, that when your phsyical body dies, then what is the point in having that "soul" since it is not even conscious without the physical body?

Also, i'd like to agree with others : You seem to think the energy or soul you refer to can be interpreted with the Laws of Physics. This is wrong. This energy or soul you believe in cannot be used with the laws of physics, as it isn't the same energy as the one defined by the laws of physics. (Prove me wrong. Please.)

About the psychic there's story after story like the one I posted. You have psychics giving names of criminals before police have a suspect, you have them telling the police where they live and where there buried and what their buried in. You have them having sketches drawn of the criminal before the police have a suspect. One case the psychic told the police that the person who killed the girl went to school with her. The police were looking at her boyfriend as the main suspect and they were skeptical because the boyfriend didn't go to school with her. The psychic as for her yearbook, opened it up, went from page to page and stopped and pointed at a guy and said he's the killer. The police checked it out and he was the killer

These sceptics have to be fairly modest folk, as they don't seem to be interested in the million dollars offered by James Randi.

Originally posted by leonee
As others have already pointed out on this thread, there is absolutely no evidence to indicate that our consciousness is anything more than a manifestation of our brain activity. Once our brain cells finally cease to function, it's all over. No afterlife or reincarnations.

Personally I don't find that terrifying or depressing at all. If we just have this one ride, it's up to us to make it as good as possible. Live life, enjoy it and don't worry about death, once you're dead you won't be around to feel sorry about it.

Absolutely no evidence? This is why I go after skeptics so vigorously. To make this statement, you have to be caught up in a belief system because you are suspending reason.

What you and others are saying is opinion absent of any evidence. There's plenty of evidence to support life after death and life after death is something that occurs naturally.

www.victorzammit.com...
www.cfpf.org.uk...
veritas.arizona.edu...
profezie3m.altervista.org...
www.light1998.com...
www.technologyreview.com...

I can go on and on. What the skeptic can say is they don't accept the evidence. This again shows a belief system is at work, because many skeptics fear even acknowledging that evidence exists.

What about spiritualist like Sir Oliver Lodge, Sir William Crookes and Alfred Russel Wallace? Wallace quote is very relevant:

I thus learnt my first great lesson in the inquiry into these obscure fields of knowledge, never to accept the disbelief of great men or their accusations of imposture or of imbecility, as of any weight when opposed to the repeated observation of facts by other men, admittedly sane and honest. The whole history of science shows us that whenever the educated and scientific men of any age have denied the facts of other investigators on a priori grounds of absurdity or impossibility, the deniers have always been wrong.

This is all you hear from the skeptics. That's not the case because that's absurd. Again, their opinion is given more weight to them at least, in light of overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

Originally posted by polomontana

Originally posted by leonee
As others have already pointed out on this thread, there is absolutely no evidence to indicate that our consciousness is anything more than a manifestation of our brain activity. Once our brain cells finally cease to function, it's all over. No afterlife or reincarnations.

Personally I don't find that terrifying or depressing at all. If we just have this one ride, it's up to us to make it as good as possible. Live life, enjoy it and don't worry about death, once you're dead you won't be around to feel sorry about it.

Absolutely no evidence? This is why I go after skeptics so vigorously. To make this statement, you have to be caught up in a belief system because you are suspending reason.

What you and others are saying is opinion absent of any evidence. There's plenty of evidence to support life after death and life after death is something that occurs naturally.

www.victorzammit.com...
www.cfpf.org.uk...
veritas.arizona.edu...
profezie3m.altervista.org...
www.light1998.com...
www.technologyreview.com...

I can go on and on. What the skeptic can say is they don't accept the evidence. This again shows a belief system is at work, because many skeptics fear even acknowledging that evidence exists.

What about spiritualist like Sir Oliver Lodge, Sir William Crookes and Alfred Russel Wallace? Wallace quote is very relevant:

I thus learnt my first great lesson in the inquiry into these obscure fields of knowledge, never to accept the disbelief of great men or their accusations of imposture or of imbecility, as of any weight when opposed to the repeated observation of facts by other men, admittedly sane and honest. The whole history of science shows us that whenever the educated and scientific men of any age have denied the facts of other investigators on a priori grounds of absurdity or impossibility, the deniers have always been wrong.

This is all you hear from the skeptics. That's not the case because that's absurd. Again, their opinion is given more weight to them at least, in light of overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

Quotations don't matter. Experiments do. Show me scientific, double-blind experiments. Actually, they've been done and they show that psychic phenomenan don't exist. You're claims have no basis in reality.

There's a million dollars offered by Victor Zammit. Oh yeah, the skeptic will say Randi's offer is the only one that matters because it supports their pre-existing belief.

One million dollars is offered to any closed minded skeptic who can rebut the existing evidence for life after death. It's a challenge that has been going on for 8 years.

www.victorzammit.com...

Go get rich!

Originally posted by Shakeyjc
Also, i'd like to agree with others : You seem to think the energy or soul you refer to can be interpreted with the Laws of Physics. This is wrong. This energy or soul you believe in cannot be used with the laws of physics, as it isn't the same energy as the one defined by the laws of physics. (Prove me wrong. Please.)

We just don't know what it is. Actually, as far as we know, it doesn't exist at all. There's no reason to think that it does, scientifically. We should be looking less at the soul and more at the nature of consciousness.

Originally posted by polomontana

Absolutely no evidence? This is why I go after skeptics so vigorously. To make this statement, you have to be caught up in a belief system because you are suspending reason.

What you and others are saying is opinion absent of any evidence. There's plenty of evidence to support life after death and life after death is something that occurs naturally.

You may have "evidence," but you do not give us any. You give us links to websites, which is pointless. I can tell you pigs fly and give you a link to google. It doesn't help. I'd like to see some legitimate evidence in life after death.

And, we do indeed have evidence for our skeptic opinions. You may believe that NDEs prove souls, but can be simply explained by brain activity.
Our lack in evidence to do with "life after death" probably comes due to the non exitsence of such a reality.

Why should life after death occur naturally. I don't see where you are coming from.

When you can measure my soul in Joules, i will give you credit for using conservation of energy as an arguement. But the fact is that it doesn't work like that.

If you have ANY proof of life after death, then the world is waiting to see it. You'd be a rich man.

Originally posted by Johnmike

Originally posted by Shakeyjc
Also, i'd like to agree with others : You seem to think the energy or soul you refer to can be interpreted with the Laws of Physics. This is wrong. This energy or soul you believe in cannot be used with the laws of physics, as it isn't the same energy as the one defined by the laws of physics. (Prove me wrong. Please.)

We just don't know what it is. Actually, as far as we know, it doesn't exist at all. There's no reason to think that it does, scientifically. We should be looking less at the soul and more at the nature of consciousness.

Agreed. It is my belief that consciousness comes from our brain, and our physical body, obviously, it's quite hard to figure out how it works as we are still explaining how the brain works. I'm quite sure however it would be possible to build a computer that thinks the way we do and believes that it exists. It'd be a lot of code. If you pulled the plug it would no longer be aware. Just the same as if people pull the plug on us (cut of blood supply for example).

Shakey,

Your not making any sense. You asked why don't we remember things inbetween our conscious experience. It's like saying why do we dream because we can't remember all of our dreams? If we can't remember our dreams, what's the point in having them? It just doesn't make sense.

Now, i have shown that energy survives death. Now I will show a specific action that you carry out survives death.

From Seth Lloyd interview.

You can think of atoms as carrying bits of information, or you can think of bits of information as carrying atoms. You can't separate the two.

So when you drink a glass of water it's a bit of information being processed. Your memory of drinking the glass of water is a bit of information being processed.

My question is, when you die is this information erased? Of course not.




Your specific action and memory of that action is a process of energy and information that doesn't disappear when you die. This would be hocus pocus physics. The universe is the CPU so to speak, the hardrive exists unless it is destroyed. The universe exists after you experience death.

It's like Plato said, the shadows actually think they are something "other" than shadows. This is the ego having the grand delusion of self as all that there is. This doesn't make sense.

Even if we build thinking robots, this would mean that thinking robots exists now. The universe already allows for the computation of these thinking robots if they will exist in what we call the future.

This is why Einstein called reality a persistent illusion. He talked about the simulataneous nature of time and how distinctions between the past, present and future were persistent illusions.

Originally posted by wigit
I don't know about physics but it doesn't make sense to me. Okay, I expect a body to die and rot, but not ME that's inside THIS body. I don't think this is all that I am. There are millions of folk on this planet, animals too, and plants if you want to call them conscious beings. But there's only one of me who sees it all from my perspective. Maybe I'm the only one? My body/container will die but I can't die. There would be no purpose to me being here in the first place. The universe will cease to exist if I die. That surely means I'm taking you all with me? If I die you all go? No?

[edit on 15-9-2007 by wigit]

I agree with you.

"A) That energy can die. "
Spiritual energy is something higher, not explained by science and cannot die!

Originally posted by polomontana
Shakey,

Your not making any sense. You asked why don't we remember things inbetween our conscious experience. It's like saying why do we dream because we can't remember all of our dreams? If we can't remember our dreams, what's the point in having them? It just doesn't make sense.

So what are the bits "in between" conscious experience. Is this not death? I mean if one where not to have another conscious experience (ie after leaving our human body) then this would be death, and you're conscious does not survive it.

I will admit that my presence leaves and effect upon the world. Of course it does. My consciousness may "decide" what happens, however just because i had an effect on something, doesn't mean i know it after i die.

For example. I leave this post to you, I eat and process chemicals every day, i talk to people, i use the internet and power which consumes fuel.

Just because i consumed that fuel and i had my effect on the world doesn't mean that i get life after death. This is absolute nonsense.

The simple fact that my brain will not be in the configuration as it is at the moment, when i die means that I (me and my body) will no longer be conscious.

Yes sure, i have changed parts of the world, but I won't know it when i die. It's not as if my faeces will have self awerness simply because i "processed" them.

The universe exists after i experience death? So what? This doesn't mean I can be conscious again. All it means is that i have rearranged a TINY fraction of energy in the universe. That is all!

Shadows don't think. My shadow is my effect. It has no brain. Thats daft!

Obviously , thinking robots are possible, since WE exist. We can think. MAking something that does think isn't too hard. Have a baby!

Yes, einstein said reality is an illusion, which it is. It's the way we percieve things, that is all. The reason it's persistent is because we cannot think outside the box, we just aren't made to ( try and imagine 4 spatial dimensions. You can't).


We can't remember many of our dreams. What does this have to do with anything? Some neurons in my brain fire while i'm asleep making me believe i have seen or done something. I might forget my dream i might not. It's just a side effect of having a brain. It's Biology, and Biology is determined by Chemistry and Physics, and Chemistry itself if determined by Physics, and so life and consciousness is Physics. Basically when the universe began, cause and effect occured, and happened to produce us. Everything happens as a reaction to something that happened before it. Our consciosness is Chemical reactions. We see something because light cause pigments in our rod and cone cells to decompose and sets up action potentials which sends an impulse to our brain which processes the information and we see it!

Pretty much all reality can be explained by Physics. Yes we cannot explain some stuff YET, however this is no reason to go jumping at theories like "Souls." Self awareness and consciousness could be a simple result of our brain, and random decision could be due to ranom events that occur on the quantum level!

Find me proof, and i mean solid proof of a soul that cannot be explained EVER by Physics and the rest of Science.

*sorry for any spelling errors - my new laptop keyboard is hard to get used to.

[edit on 18/9/07 by Shakeyjc]

[

My question is, when you die is this information erased? Of course not.


Yes, it is. Information stored on a RAM drive is erased when the electricity is cut. Information stored in your brain is 100% erased upon rotting of neural circuits (rotting of the brain)- this usually takes like a day after you die. Permanent brain damage- the point at which about 99% of your memories are destroyed, takes place about 5 minutes after you die. Your brain stops working immediately upon death because there is no oxygen flow to the brain to allow it to process the neural circuits.

Originally posted by dreamingawake

Originally posted by wigit
I don't know about physics but it doesn't make sense to me. Okay, I expect a body to die and rot, but not ME that's inside THIS body. I don't think this is all that I am. There are millions of folk on this planet, animals too, and plants if you want to call them conscious beings. But there's only one of me who sees it all from my perspective. Maybe I'm the only one? My body/container will die but I can't die. There would be no purpose to me being here in the first place. The universe will cease to exist if I die. That surely means I'm taking you all with me? If I die you all go? No?

[edit on 15-9-2007 by wigit]

I agree with you.

"A) That energy can die. "
Spiritual energy is something higher, not explained by science and cannot die!

Proof of said "spiritual energy"?

There is none. It doesn't exist. It's equivalent to making claims about the tooth fairy and Santa Claus- it's insanity.

Originally posted by polomontana
Again, I'm not trying to conflate anything. It's very simple. The 1st law of Thermodynamics states, energy can't be created nor destroyed.

So when you born energy is not magically created and when you die energy is not destroyed. The laws of physics only supports the experience of death. Your energy doesn't die. We exist in a potential reality that's formed from a quantum fluctuation. We are energy in a state of decoherence and our energy doesn't magically disappear when we die. That's hocus pocus physics.

I think that you misunderstand the concept of energy. Energy takes many physical forms - kinetic, chemical/gravitational potential, etc... Energy is the potential to do work. There is absolutely nothing "mystical" about energy. It is a fairly well understood concept.

Your consciousness is the result of a chemical neural network. That is, the chemical interactions that take place in your brain form a network that describes your consciousness. This network uses chemical energy to run. Nothing mystical about it.

When you are developing/born/living the energy for forming this consciousness comes from the intake of nutrients (chemical energy). When you reach a point where your body is too disorganized to continue to perform these chemical reactions (consciousness and other bodily functions), you are dead.

The chemical energy that was stored and being used in your body and by your brain is either released as body heat, or is stored in your body's tissue, where it will be further released as more heat, or chemical energy in escaping gases. Remaining chemical energy that was stored in your body will be released into the ground, or however you wish to be disposed of after death.

I think your question may have been more along the lines of, "Where does the potential energy that is stored in the organized network of my brain that forms consciousness escape to?" The answer to this is the same as above. It is released as heat and chemical energy to your surrounding environment after you die.

Perhaps you should take a high-school or college level physics or thermodynamics course. I'm sure there are some good purely conceptual courses out there that would help you understand the subject manner.

As for your comment about how physics can't explain everything- well it can't. But it can describe the process of death. You need to read other people's posts before making such statements. Tom Bedlam and MajorMalfunction already answered your question.

You cannot just come charging in here babbling non-sequiturs about quantum mechanics (a very advanced topic), when it is very clear that you do not understand basic physics very well (no offense intended- most people do not). May pseudoscience/mystical "researchers" hijack technical jargon to make their arguments sound more believable. It often becomes very clear that they don't understand it.

[edit on 18-9-2007 by erkokite]

Shakey and others are really stepping in it. They keep briniging up the soul when I have not mentioned it. This shows they are so blinded by their objection to religion that they can't think straight about physics.

Also, when we dream, what are we seeing? Does your brain "see" without your eyes? How do you "hear" in your dreams without your ears? How do you "touch" something in your dreams without your hands? I'm sure some of you will answer in absolutes like a Sith but physics does not answer these questions absolutely.

Also, Red you act as if the computation that makes up consciousness is independent of the universe. This is the huge mistake of the ego. When we die the universe doesn't get turned off and neither do you.

When is the electricity "cut" on the universe? Does it get "cut" when you die? When your material body experiences death, the information that you have stored still exists because the atoms that stored this information still exists after you die. Yes, it may be a suprise to you but information and energy keeps processing information even after you die.

As for your comment about dreams and such - you're much better of researching neurology and psychology. It has nothing to do with physics. Your perception of reality is filtered through your sensory organs, your nervous system, and your brains various low level "subsystems," until it finally reaches the conscious part of your brain. Anything could be piped into the conscious part of your brain, and you would perceive it. This is how you see/touch/smell things that aren't really there. Nothing mystical about it.

It's very simple. When you "consciously" drink a glass of orange juice a quantum computation is occuring. This is information being processed by the universe. This information doesn't cease when you die because the universe still exists. You are trying to speak as if your conscious action is something that's seperate from the universe.

I quote that line from The 300,"This is madness."

It's really quite simple and elegant.

Originally posted by polomontana
Shakey and others are really stepping in it. They keep briniging up the soul when I have not mentioned it. This shows they are so blinded by their objection to religion that they can't think straight about physics.

Also, when we dream, what are we seeing? Does your brain "see" without your eyes? How do you "hear" in your dreams without your ears? How do you "touch" something in your dreams without your hands? I'm sure some of you will answer in absolutes like a Sith but physics does not answer these questions absolutely.

Also, Red you act as if the computation that makes up consciousness is independent of the universe. This is the huge mistake of the ego. When we die the universe doesn't get turned off and neither do you.

When is the electricity "cut" on the universe? Does it get "cut" when you die? When your material body experiences death, the information that you have stored still exists because the atoms that stored this information still exists after you die. Yes, it may be a suprise to you but information and energy keeps processing information even after you die.

It is not the atoms and energy that perform the machinations of consciousness. It is the structure in which they are organized. By your logic, I could smash a computer into pieces, and it would continue to function. It wouldn't, because the necessary structure to process information no longer exists. Same way with the brain.

[edit on 18-9-2007 by erkokite]