Passing strange how we "know" that this has taken place. While the scenario is frightening and not beyond anyone's capacity to imagine given the Bush/Cheney government, I do not trust the hand pointing and saying, "Look at this! Look at this!" (I do not mean this personally with reference to the OP. I think he deserves a shiny award for putting this information together -- information that is remarkable as it is terrifying.)

Nonetheless, the attention given to one event leads me to want to turn around immediately and look at whatever it may be that is being covered up and papered over by this "disclosed" event. My latest twist on Occam...

[edit on 13/9/07 by Pellevoisin]

I worked for over 6 years in the 2w0x1 career field for the U.S. Air Force. We dealt with conventional munitions, nothing nuclear. But this story is cause for grave concern. I find it highly unlikely that the military chain of command would chose to break international treaties on their own. This is how people lose their entire careers and end up sitting in a chair in front of congress with cameras everywhere. But that isn't happening. Since no commander could ever willingly and independently break such treaties, this stunt must have gone all the way up the chain. That is obvious in how the military is treating this event. You don't see commanders getting fired and people sitting in front of Congress, nor will that happen.

Not to mention that if a commander were to try to get away with such a stunt, it would never work because everyone in the chain of command would know. At least everyone down to the accountability control and nuke specialists who do storage and handling, transport, and the security forces that have to guard these weapons. Such operations involving live nuclear weapons would never be allowed to happen since everyone would know about what was going on. These weapons don't get pulled out of storage, prepared for flight, loaded on the aircraft, and secured by the support of security forces without people knowing about it and without authorization and accountability of these nuclear assets. The Air Force is paranoid about how it deals with such weapons. Nothing involving these weapons takes place without clear authorization and justification from the chain of command higher up. Someone higher up (above the commander level) would have had to authorize the commanders to go forward with this, especially since it involves international treaties and live nuclear weapons being loaded on combat aircraft.

If a nuclear weapon has been pilfered and eventually finds it's way into the hands of a terrorist group like Al-Qaeda, and the device was detonated inside the U.S., the specific type of plutonium used in the weapon would be spread over a wide area and would be detectable. It's just like what happened in the movie with Ben Afflek "The Sum of All Fears". In the movie, they were able to pinpoint the source of the nuclear material used to make the warhead and therefore poinpoint which country made the weapon. But if such a weapon were detonated on American soil, we would be able to tell if it was of U.S. origin or not. Therefore, anyone who thinks this is some type of conspiracy for the U.S. to nuke itself is mistaken. There would be blatant proof of the origin of the device, therefore they would have no room for deniability.

I think we all hope and pray that such a day never comes. At least not those of us whom are sound of mind. I believe that we are not being told the truth involving this event and I believe that the military could never even get away with doing this independently and without authorization from higher up in the chain of command. The only likely explanation would be that this is some kind of political stunt. But it still raises more questions than answers. The U.S. doesn't have to break international treaty to make our enemies aware of the fact that we have an immense nuclear capability. It doesn't take flying live nukes over American soil to get their attention. Everyone knows we have a huge stockpile of mission-ready nuclear weapons. That was never in dispute. Therefore I still don't understand why they would do this to get the attention of the International community. Not to mention it makes us look wreckless in the eyes of what allies we have left.

Not to mention, the Air Force doesn't transport nuclear weapons to be decommissioned on combat-ready aircraft and in combat-ready configuration. It has proven costly before with all the crashes and nuclear accidents. If they lose the aircraft, they lose 6 nukes. It makes absolutely no sense.

-ChriS

[edit on 13-9-2007 by BlasteR]

Originally posted by BlasteR

But if such a weapon were detonated on American soil, we would be able to tell if it was of U.S. origin or not. Therefore, anyone who thinks this is some type of conspiracy for the U.S. to nuke itself is mistaken.

I'm sure there would be some cover-up afterwards...

Originally posted by Vitchilo
Great post! Seriously! From CFR and ``Al-Qaeda`` sources, it would be New York, Washington DC or Chicago in the top 3.

Washington DC, you have the advantage of blowing up the congress which give Bush total power.
New York, for some kind of reason the globalists hate New Yorkers, it's also a big economical center and american symbol. And you can blow up the UN so you can say that terrorists don't want us united, so we will build a more powerful UN...
Chicago, Larry Silverstein owns the Sears Tower. Also, it's in ``middle america`` there would be also contamination of the great lakes which would kill even more people, also Chicago is part of the ``Manufacturing belt`` and it's a big finance center.

Take your pick. There's also LA, but LA is important for some reasons to the elites so I don't see them nuking their ``own city``.

[edit on 11-9-2007 by Vitchilo]

I know I am joining this thread a bit late, so forgive me if someone else has made this point.

Remember, we are dealing with the Bush family here. Being an ally of that family has not historically been a very safe long-term career goal. The names bin Laden, Hussein, and Noriega come to mind as examples. The mainstream media, whose heart and brain reside in Los Angeles, allied with the Bush regime-elect in 2000, spinning all election news in his favor, and acting instrumentally in the events that handed him the presidency. They did this in return for the mass "deregulation" of the media industry by the new chief of the FCC, Michael Powell (son of the famous general) and a blind eye turned to monopolistic (illegal) mergers and acquisitions by the SEC. They have continued to honor this loyalty with very few exceptions ever since.

It would be perfectly in character for Bush and those who control him to double-cross these allies and drop this rogue nuke there. The benefits would be enormous: everyone in America would be affected because most of the new movies and new TV shows would be cancelled, the Christian right (who have long villified the "Jewish," "homosexual" "purveyors of sin" based in LA) would perhaps redouble their considerable financial support of the Bush regime, the resulting earthquakes would rock the entire state of California (whose support of the Bush administration has been faltering, at best), and not only would the move cripple the most entrenched and the most independent media factories, all surviving studios nationwide would take notice and quickly move to conform even more completely to the letter and the tone that Bush would require to take full military control of the U.S., suspend elections, institute a police state, and become full-fledged dictator over the North American Union.

Look at what was said to the CFR: "We assess with high confidence that al-Qaida is focusing on targets that would produce mass casualties, dramatic destruction and significant aftershocks." Am I making too much of the words "dramatic" and "aftershocks" here?

Originally posted by BlasteR
...But if such a weapon were detonated on American soil, we would be able to tell if it was of U.S. origin or not. Therefore, anyone who thinks this is some type of conspiracy for the U.S. to nuke itself is mistaken. There would be blatant proof of the origin of the device, therefore they would have no room for deniability...

But you see, it doesn't matter that the nuke is of U.S. origin for several reasons:

1. Bush could use the fact that Us Armed Forces were involved to attack and/or disband departments or branches within the gov't by claiming they had something to do with the heist of the ordnance;
   
2. Bush could claim the fact as evidence that Al-Quaida has so inundated the American political system that he is justified in taking dictatorial control;
   
3. Bush could just blame the theft on Al Qaida without further elaboration; or,
   
4. as in the 9-11 attacks, significant parts of the investigation could just be left undone, and the fact of its origin might not ever be determined or it might be considered to be inconsequential in light of the enormity of the tragedy.
   

The fact that the weapon was of U.S. origin is therefore not enough of a deterrent to prevent its use on U.S. soil.


[edit on 9/13/07 by without_prejudice]

I guess I'm showing my age.
I noticed a few of my fellow bluesuiters here. It's nice to see!

I also noticed one individual posted his AFSC (google it) if I remember my codes right he's got a job code to know a little. And with all due respect all AFSC's beginning with "2" are maintainers.

I can't remember because I had an old one, and never bothered to learn my new one. I think it started with a "2" . These came around in 1992 ish with the dissolving of SAC, TAC and MAC. And the formation of Air Combat Command and Military Airlift Command. My code was 454X0A (google it it's the old one).

So based on the Airman's use his AFSC (a new one) I can surmise that the Airman never experienced the fun and light hearted joy of SAC. I recommend watching Dr. Strangelove and reading up in his PFE AF Pamphlet 50-34 on Air Force history. Unless, like me, you used it for a great beer coaster and 35-10 reference

Remember General Curtis Lemay? The granddaddy of SAC? The man who designed Allied bombing tactics in Europe in WWII with the "bloody 8th", firebombed Japan killing over 200,000 in one raid over Tokyo, the man who coined the phrase "bomb them into the stone age" & "there are no innocent civilians" & "these gd Kenneys are going to ruin this country!" because he wanted to turn the bombers loose on Cuba in 1962.

The unspoken SAC motto of "Peace is our profession, war is our hobby" speaks volumes to it's culture. I know better ones but they're not suitable for posting

Coincidentally and off topic I went to Boot Camp and Tech School with Gen. Paul Tibbets grandson "Paul" (i think all the males are named Paul in that family). The Air Force is a smaller community than most think.

If you don't know who Paul Tibbets is, you should feel like a dumb American and hang your head in shame!

And thanks to men like Lemay and Tibbets the "the cold war wasn't fought, it was WON".

I could go on and on. What is important, is to note is Air Force culture has changed exponentially. But we still have nukes and ABSOLUTELY no need to sneak around with nukes.

Give us the codes and we'll still turn the keys with a smile.
Get some "evil doer!".

Not to mention the Navy's missile subs which can hit in minutes. They pack 24 Trident missles usually carrying the Mark 82 warhead (I think) which has a variable yield from "X" to 475Kt. Bear in mind Hiroshima was about 8 - 10 with less than 5% of the U235 fissioning, inefficient at best. The Trident is MIRV`d so EACH sub can put 96 warheads on target without warning. I wonder how many subs are "in theater"?

So in keeping with the SAC tradition of screwing with civvies, the Air Force is having it's 60th Birthday Sept 17th. Maybe that's the date people are guessing at? Nukes would be great fireworks for the party!

Why are people trying to figure it out? You hurt national security if you get it right. Like those morons on CNN who reported we were tracking Bin Laden via signals from his Sat phone. Now he doesn't use one, thanks CNN! I hope you can be his next victim.

This is why the Air Force has a written and clearly defined policy of "total information warfare" which they teach at the academy and the war colleges.

Simply put if you're not involved with the mission you're a justified target for disinformation. This means me, people reading this and target #1 all media outlets.

Sun Tzu said 4,000 years ago in China "All warfare is based deception".

Please don't risk our guys by guessing correctly. You might give the bad guys the missing puzzle piece to get somebody killed. I ask that as a personal favor.

On that note I'll end with an old SAC joke, "I tried to take her back to my place ... but I guess I didn't have the right badge number"

P.S. I meant no disrespect or dressing down of the Airman I mentioned in this post. But at risk of sounding like an NCO, have you read your PFE lately?

[edit on 13-9-2007 by Skeptical0ne]

[edit on 13-9-2007 by Skeptical0ne]

[edit on 13-9-2007 by Skeptical0ne]

Originally posted by Skeptical0ne
I
I can't remember because I had an old one, and never bothered to learn my new one. I think it started with a "2" .

Is that the career group or qualification level? (the 2)

Originally posted by neil wilkes

Originally posted by Skeptical0ne
I
I can't remember because I had an old one, and never bothered to learn my new one. I think it started with a "2" .

Is that the career group or qualification level? (the 2)

Group. Of course I never worked at CBPO

In my case 454X0A - the X is the skill (3,5,7,9) and A means I'm not in turboprop. Beyond that I don't really know the coding.

Wikipedia probably explains the new scheme.

Originally posted by BlasteR

But if such a weapon were detonated on American soil, we would be able to tell if it was of U.S. origin or not. Therefore, anyone who thinks this is some type of conspiracy for the U.S. to nuke itself is mistaken. There would be blatant proof of the origin of the device, therefore they would have no room for deniability.

Thanks for the post BlastR and I see your point. I just hope that if it ever happens we can get as well qualified and thorough Investigating Committee as we had on 911 to investigate the origin of the device.

My 2 cents:

NJMooch could be right - that would explain the amazingly unbelievable breakdown of weapon handling procedure.

That it happened is amazingly surprising. I would not have suspected that could just occur. Weird stuff does happen, and you do sometimes have unusual events on the flightline with the loaded weapons. I recall in particular one Colonel's daughter made it to the flightline in Warner Robins and was playing knick-knack on a weapon with a set of tools trying to damage it physically when they dragged her off. I wouldn't have expected that either. But the loading takes so many people screwing up that it's tough to fathom.

Given that something went really badly wrong somehow up front, maybe thought they were loading dud missiles, and having done it too many times were just lazy and didn't do the checks as they should have. That might also account for the weird discrepancy in the count. That and maybe the reporters didn't get it quite right, or didn't get their story details from someone who actually knew. Given the possibility that the initial screwup that caused the loading might also screw up the count, and the number of people in the info-trail at that point, I'm less immediately worried about the count than the fact that they could be loaded in the first place.

Larger picture: the real issue is that they were in a delivery system when transported. They move weapons around a LOT in C130's.

I'll have to reduce the details on this story, but I know some guys that got their CIB's "for free" escorting a weapon somewhere (let's say it's a current combat zone that's eligible for the CIB). They landed at this place with a couple of devices, and the base commander had no idea why. After a fast flurry of communications, it was eventually untangled and "straightened out", and they loaded back up and flew home with them. So, if you just wanted to get a weapon from point a to point b, it's not out of sop to just have one delivered. I'm not sure why you'd need to do it in such a way that you'd be causing a stink.

The weapon, should it get into someone's hands, won't be useable without the code as has been beaten to death already. If you put in the wrong one, the PAL will destroy itself and the electronics package. Can you replace it, maybe, but it isn't that straight forward. There's more to it than meets the eye. You'd basically have to have the W80 design specs for a block 1, and do a from-scratch electronics package design. You could do it with enough info and the time, maybe, if you were really good. It might be easier to start with a virgin electronics package that hadn't got its production programming yet but that would be hard to come by.

How else could you use it - nuclear weapons are not really very good for dirty bombs, because they aren't very radioactive. Plutonium's pretty poisonous chemically, less so than ricin but more than, say, cyanide. It's hard to deliver though, because it's heavy and doesn't tend to stay airborne for long.

You could get the plutonium and make something else out of it, I suppose, but you might not end up with enough to do much of a job with a crude design. There's only one crappy design you can use with Pu that's not technologically advanced, and it's low yield and takes a wad of material.

So, on one side I'm sort of thinking it's all been generated from some initial bookkeeping sort of error at the starting point. It's hard to fathom how it could happen, or if it did, how it could go so far, though.

If you have it, it's no good without the code, or without an insider in the design team with sticky fingers and amazing luck at getting out the door with very well tracked electronics. Or you have to assume you have someone that's a good designer and has the specs for the warhead at a very detailed level.