Palestinian rocket blast wounds 50 Israeli soldiers

reply to post by Subcomandante


Glad that we agree on something, there has been murders committed by both sides.

I just don't buy that you try to justify the terrorist tactics. Murder is murder, this last attacks on Israeli troops as justify as you claim it is, is going to warrant a response from Israel, so you tell me, when the cycle of violence and murder is going to end.

Israel has shown a willingness of sitting down at the table with serious Palestinian leaders, what they get in response, rocket attacks, who is going to step up from the Palestinian or Arab side be a leader and reign in the terrorist, if no one does it, Israel will do it for them and rightly so.

Originally posted by vox2442

Originally posted by Subcomandante
It has been quite a bloody week already in Palestine, as ever, with hundreds of people being restricted movement, check point beatings, and the killing of a 17 year old boy in his home only two days ago, and two days before that a 14 year old was critically wounded, a shepard beaten by settlers, as well as 10 people killed and over 30 arrested.

The war between Palestine and Israel has never ceased its fire.

I`d say that justifies a retaliation against a military base.

I`m pretty skeptical of this whole event - I`ve seen numerous videos and file footage / photos of the rockets they tend to use, and for the most part - if they actually explode - they tend to be powerful enough to make a mess of one`s lawn, and not much else. The only casualties seem to be when they manage a direct hit.

50 soldiers wounded? I doubt it.

That is the first thing I thought of when I read the story. It seemed like an awful lot of casualties for one of the normal Qassam (sp?) rockets that they usually fire. However, I guess it is always possible that they have some inventory of larger and more powerful rockets.

Originally posted by Bunch
reply to post by Subcomandante

 

Glad that we agree on something, there has been murders committed by both sides.

I just don't buy that you try to justify the terrorist tactics. Murder is murder, this last attacks on Israeli troops as justify as you claim it is, is going to warrant a response from Israel, so you tell me, when the cycle of violence and murder is going to end.

Israel has shown a willingness of sitting down at the table with serious Palestinian leaders, what they get in response, rocket attacks, who is going to step up from the Palestinian or Arab side be a leader and reign in the terrorist, if no one does it, Israel will do it for them and rightly so.

Of course there have been murders, it is warfare, and nowhere have I said that any murder is justified. I'm merely say its a war, so it happens.

And with Israel has never been serious about peace processes. When Arafat was the leader of the Palestinian people, there were meetings with the Israelis and Clinton to find peace, and it was the Israelis who were stubborn and unwilling. And there have been no peace talks with Hamas. Hamas were willing to engage in such talks, but the Israelis put undoable conditions that had to be achieved before talks could even begin. Hence why Israel decided it would be easier to just cause a civil war.
Regardless, why does Israel have a place to say what is best for the Palestinians? If it hadn't been for their invasion of the region 60 years ago, there wouldn't be any need for any of this. They have no right to be there, and no right to claim what is best for their neighbours. Especially as it will have little to do with what is actually best for them.

Originally posted by manzoor
well because they choose to join the idf which means you have to kill others there for you are not a civilian and they are combatians.
they chose to join knowing they will have to kill people and maybe be shot back at.

They are civilian though. Israeli police force do the same thing, are they targets as well? What the IDF is a job, no different from a postman.

So, by doing their job, protecting a nation, they deserve to die?

My external source tag is not working so please mods fix this if you feel like it

From CNN:

"The spokesman, who identified himself as "Abu Hamza," pledged that Islamic Jihad would intensify its rocket attacks against Israeli targets -- both civilian and military"

So they have clearly signal and intention not only to escalate the situation but to also and not surprising to target civilians, now someone tell me, why Israel would be in the wrong if they retaliate? when this spokesman for terrorist already have signal that they plan to attack and kill civilians, well not that they care anyways.

Soldiers and Law Enforcement officers are NOT civilians.

A citizen not part of the state through participation in the military or police force.

In a war, soldiers are the ones you are supposed to attack. Soldiers here were attacked. Irregardless if they were recruits in training, they were soldiers in the military, the stated enemy of an occupied peoples, and not civilians.

Of course this is just another one of those tit for tat attacks and as usual, is going to create more problems or both sides.

I am curious however, has anyone even recovered the kidnapped soldier from the rebels thast tunneled into a base last year?

Originally posted by Bunch
My external source tag is not working so please mods fix this if you feel like it

From CNN:

"The spokesman, who identified himself as "Abu Hamza," pledged that Islamic Jihad would intensify its rocket attacks against Israeli targets -- both civilian and military"

So they have clearly signal and intention not only to escalate the situation but to also and not surprising to target civilians, now someone tell me, why Israel would be in the wrong if they retaliate? when this spokesman for terrorist already have signal that they plan to attack and kill civilians, well not that they care anyways.

So you know, Abu Hamza is a radical muslim cleric from Britain. He used to be a nightclub bouncer in Soho, London. I don't think that guy has ever been to Palestine, nor been a spokesperson for Hamas.

Originally posted by infinite
They are civilian though. Israeli police force do the same thing, are they targets as well? What the IDF is a job, no different from a postman.

Sure they are both jobs but comparing a soldier of the IDF to a postman is really stretching it, don't you think?

I think what manzoor is trying to say is that by becoming a soldier, these people have accepted the risks involved. I mean come on, it's Israel, aren't they "surrounded by their enemies"? They took the job, they accept the risks. Their enemies will label them targets. It's a given.

As for the Israeli police force? I have no love for any police force, so I'm even gonna answer that. Read the recent thread about police abuse if you want to know why.

Originally posted by Beachcoma
Sure they are both jobs but comparing a soldier of the IDF to a postman is really stretching it, don't you think?

Ermm...
no, not really. A job's a job. You shouldn't be seen as legitimate target because of your chosen career, which some posters in this thread think.

Innocent men, who were asleep, were targeted. I think to show some sympathy is justified.

[edit on 11-9-2007 by infinite]

My apologies, there was infact a Palestinian leader called Abu Hamza. He was a leader in the Islamic Jihad Movement. They however were not directly linked with Hamas. And he died on May 26th 2006. Not exactly new events.

Originally posted by infinite

Originally posted by Beachcoma
Sure they are both jobs but comparing a soldier of the IDF to a postman is really stretching it, don't you think?

Ermm...
no, not really. A job's a job. You shouldn't be seen as legitimate target because of your chosen career, which some posters in this thread think.

Innocent men, who were asleep, were targeted. I think to show some sympathy is justified.

[edit on 11-9-2007 by infinite]

I have to agree with Beachcoma. Those men weren't forced into the IDF, they chose. The country has been at war for 60 years, if you joined an armed forces, you are going to fight. It would be like joining the US Marines, then being sent to Iraq and getting upset when people shot at you. The risks are clear, regardless of wether or not they just joined for the pension.

Originally posted by infinite

Originally posted by Subcomandante
How do you know the population no longer supports Hamas?

Because I watch Al Jazeera and the local people in Gaza are worried about Hamas and don't want them. The countless investigations by the media, from mainstream to underground have highlighted the disillusionment towards Hamas.

If it weren't for Hamas taking control, there would still be Palestinians killing Palestinians in Gaza.

Now its Hamas killing Palestinians in Gaza.

----------------------------------------------------

I am struggle to understand the thinking in this thread.

You are against civilians being targeted, but not soldiers? They are citizens as well and most importantly, human.

Am I the only person here who feels violence against anyone is wrong? on any level?

As I said, no one is legitimate target.

Firstly, for those anti-Israeli fanatics out there who don't actually understand the region but just follow your own ideologies..

Hamas was elected in for two reasons. One, Hamas has a FAR better social caring network for services, ect.. the Fatah party could negotiate and make deals with Israelis, but did little for their own peoples development, as a result infrastructure crumbled and political leaders often never showed up for their job. So Hamas came in, and all the people where happy... except Hamas conducted the majority of attacks AGAINST CIVILIANS, unlike Hezbolah which for the most part tried to target business leaders and military.. so the West and Israel cut off funding, thus they could not do their job..... which once in power they ended up diverting more attention to war and lost focus of the pacts they made with the civilians..

The other reason was general security, Hamas being a military organization offered better security, however they perform best offensively..

In the end the Palestinians where better off under Fatah, the Israelis where better off with Fatah, and the Hamas government brought civil war, fighting in the streets and audacious acts of violence that brought Israeli tanks back into Palestinian neighborhoods. Whos fault is it? EVERY BODY INVOLVED.

When Palestinians finally get to the point where they can understand that peace will bring victories, not violence they will finally live in peace. The circle of violence, the daily bombing of Israel will only destroy them. But do they care about the people? No, notice the in fighting, its about personal power, they could care less how many die.

Comments like this

50 injured that is a big attack but atleast its on troops not civilians my heart dont go out for those troops.

from an ignorant poster named Manzoor on this thread is the exact mindset most of you people have, the biggest hypocrites I have ever talked to honestly. I don't think its the rooting for the underdog mentality, because looking at most of you peoples posting history it is clear your all of the same caliber.

By the way, all Israeli civilians MUST complete a required term in the army, men AND woman, these trainies where most likely conscripts, but you don't care, and you don't give a damn when Israeli civilians die either, all Israeli civilians are RESERVE fighters, so I suppose in your eyes then all Israelis are legitimate targets?


Some people make me sick, honestly.

Originally posted by Subcomandante
I have to agree with Beachcoma. Those men weren't forced into the IDF, they chose. The country has been at war for 60 years, if you joined an armed forces, you are going to fight.

Not true in some cases,

the British soldiers can have a trade within the forces, some join for that, not to go out and shoot people.

Originally posted by Rockpuck
By the way, all Israeli civilians MUST complete a required term in the army, men AND woman, these trainies where most likely conscripts, but you don't care, and you don't give a damn when Israeli civilians die either, all Israeli civilians are RESERVE fighters, so I suppose in your eyes then all Israelis are legitimate targets?

Rockpuck has made an extremely valid point.
I am interested to see what the replies are now to his/her comments.

As I said at the start, no one is a legitimate target.

Originally posted by infinite
A job's a job. You shouldn't be seen as legitimate target because of your chosen career, which some posters in this thread think.

Innocent men, who were asleep, were targeted. I think to show some sympathy is justified.

Whether they were innocent or not is irrelevant. Occupational hazards are what they are. If you choose to be a miner, you choose to accept the risk that the mine will collapse or a gas explosion will happen. If you choose to be a postman, you accept the risk that dogs will chase and/or bite you. If you choose to be a soldier in a country that's at war or surrounded by enemies, you accept the risk of being shot at by your enemies.

Signing up to be a combatant and expecting not to be exposed to the dangers of battle is wishful thinking.

reply to post by Beachcoma


ER, No one has said the Israeli soldiers did not EXPECT a risk when being enlisted into the army. All that is being pointed out is that when an Israeli soldier DIES people on this board tend to think that its a GOOD THING. Which is sick. Absolutely NO compassion what so ever, where as a "freedom fighter" .. dies its "those sick Israeli war mongers killing innocent people!!" .. regardless if it was an offensive or retaliatory strike.

Well done Boys...Great shot.

Originally posted by Rockpuck
reply to post by Beachcoma

 

All that is being pointed out is that when an Israeli soldier DIES people on this board tend to think that its a GOOD THING.

I didn't say anything of that sort, nor did I imply it. In fact I wasn't even arguing that.

As for freedom fighters, look what I've written above:

Originally posted by Beachcoma
Signing up to be a combatant and expecting not to be exposed to the dangers of battle is wishful thinking.

reply to post by DYepes


To answer you question about the missing soldier, if you are refering to Cpl. Gilad Shalit, Nick Robertson the reporter for CNN interviewed Hezbollah leader Sayyed Hassan Nasrallah, a very interesting piece that shows how nuts this people are.

Robertson ask Nasrallah about the faith of Shalit and he said that they have him but they have fall short of providing any convincing proof to verify that.

Originally posted by Rockpuck
Firstly, for those anti-Israeli fanatics out there who don't actually understand the region but just follow your own ideologies..

Hamas was elected in for two reasons. One, Hamas has a FAR better social caring network for services, ect.. the Fatah party could negotiate and make deals with Israelis, but did little for their own peoples development, as a result infrastructure crumbled and political leaders often never showed up for their job. So Hamas came in, and all the people where happy... except Hamas conducted the majority of attacks AGAINST CIVILIANS, unlike Hezbolah which for the most part tried to target business leaders and military.. so the West and Israel cut off funding, thus they could not do their job..... which once in power they ended up diverting more attention to war and lost focus of the pacts they made with the civilians..

The other reason was general security, Hamas being a military organization offered better security, however they perform best offensively..

In the end the Palestinians where better off under Fatah, the Israelis where better off with Fatah, and the Hamas government brought civil war, fighting in the streets and audacious acts of violence that brought Israeli tanks back into Palestinian neighborhoods. Whos fault is it? EVERY BODY INVOLVED.

When Palestinians finally get to the point where they can understand that peace will bring victories, not violence they will finally live in peace. The circle of violence, the daily bombing of Israel will only destroy them. But do they care about the people? No, notice the in fighting, its about personal power, they could care less how many die.

Comments like this

50 injured that is a big attack but atleast its on troops not civilians my heart dont go out for those troops.

from an ignorant poster named Manzoor on this thread is the exact mindset most of you people have, the biggest hypocrites I have ever talked to honestly. I don't think its the rooting for the underdog mentality, because looking at most of you peoples posting history it is clear your all of the same caliber.

By the way, all Israeli civilians MUST complete a required term in the army, men AND woman, these trainies where most likely conscripts, but you don't care, and you don't give a damn when Israeli civilians die either, all Israeli civilians are RESERVE fighters, so I suppose in your eyes then all Israelis are legitimate targets?


Some people make me sick, honestly.

An interesting post, with many valid points. To clarify, I didn't come on this thread to lambast Israel, though I don't support the state, I merely came to give another side to the argument, thats of Hamas and the Palestinian people. Don't confuse this with an undying support of either. Everyone has flaws. And as much as there is a minority of anti-Israel speakers on here, who are not always correct, the pro-Israel group are no more intelligent.

I don't think Hamas brought civil war with them neither, not to the degree we saw. If it were not were for Fatahs Israeli connections, there would have not been such trouble, and they would have worked with Hamas or subsided. The Palestinian people voted in Hamas, for better or worse, and that should be respected by all involved.

And in relation to the sickness of character, is it not sick that Israel can force its people to fight its wars? I know that the majority of Israeli people don't want to kill all Palestinians, Syrians, Iranians or anybody else, but elements of the government I believe hold different views. So to force people to be soldiers is just as sick as believing them to be such.