WTC lease holder admits WTC7 was intentionally demolished !

> it gets a little tiresome trying to instill an understanding of the basic
> principles of science and engineering into those who wish to remain
> willfully ignorant of those principles.

It amazes me how some people rather than providing constructive information jump to the conclusion that someone is willfully ignorant because they come into a forum to detail what they understand of an incident in hopes of getting feedback and a to make more informed decisions, and then somebody jumps on them for being willfully ignorant.

Let's break down the definition of willfully ignorant:

a) Willful - to do so deliberately and obstinately
b) Ignorant - undeducated

Now, if you will excuse me, you don't know me and you cannot judge a person simply because I come in here posting what I THINK. Nowhere in the post you quoted did I state that I had the definitive answers. In fact you will reread "does not seem to suggest" and "it is quite conceivable". And rather than correcting my misunderstanding, you treat this like somebody who is willfully ignorant? And then state that my reply is silly because I took the time to come in here and participate and gain further knowledge.

At least one thing is certain: You would definitely not make a very good instructor of science and engineering with a patronizing attitude like you have. All you even had to do was post the link to the article and say "Here is the evidence you are seeking." But instead you flaunt yourself.

--Randall

> it gets a little tiresome trying to instill an understanding of the basic
> principles of science and engineering into those who wish to remain
> willfully ignorant of those principles.

It amazes me how some people rather than providing constructive information jump to the conclusion that someone is willfully ignorant because they come into a forum to detail what they understand of an incident in hopes of getting feedback and a to make more informed decisions, and then somebody jumps on them for being willfully ignorant.

Let's break down the definition of willfully ignorant:

a) Willful - to do so deliberately and obstinately
b) Ignorant - undeducated

Now, if you will excuse me, you don't know me and you cannot judge a person simply because I come in here posting what I THINK. Nowhere in the post you quoted did I state that I had the definitive answers. In fact you will reread "does not seem to suggest" and "it is quite conceivable". And rather than correcting my misunderstanding, you treat this like somebody who is willfully ignorant? And then state that my reply is silly because I took the time to come in here and participate and gain further knowledge.

At least one thing is certain: You would definitely not make a very good instructor of science and engineering with a patronizing attitude like you have. All you even had to do was post the link to the article and say "Here is the evidence you are seeking." But instead you flaunt yourself.

--Randall

PS. I'm not new to civil and structural engineering. I have been researching tall building design for well over 12 years. I was interviewed by the History channel for a segment on the Sears Tower (that is actually my area of expertise), and I even spent two years creating a concept design for a high rise complex a development for the World Trade Center Site. I have done research projects on earthquake loads on highway bridges and pavement surfaces. So, I am certainly not new in the slightest to the subject of structural dynamics. I admit, I did not know all the intimate details about the World Trade Center catastrophe, but then again I was never claimed to have answers. Perhaps that's why I came here.

But clearly none of that matters, because unless you submit to the notion that the WTC collapse was some type of ridiculous government plot or a last-minute demolition project, then your views to actually gain real world knowledge are blown off as silly and willfully ignorant. Obviously there's more time for people to stroke their egos than to actually share knowledge in a helpful and constructive fashion. Some of of the discussions here are entertaining, but I can't see this as a place for practical participation.

Since I'm new here and already I can see I'm obviously too ignorant and my ideas are too silly to be welcome in this forum with people that are all clearly well ahead of me in intelligence, I will leave you to continue with your government conspiracies.

--Randall

Originally posted by rwsdakota
WTC 1 & 2 weren't controlled demolishes.. this theory has been bunked by several engineers already..

Nice picture. Too bad it understates vastly the size of the inner structural core of the building and exaggerates the floor width.

Why didn't the newspapers just use a real cutaway image of the towers, instead of an artificial cutaway?

Originally posted by rwsdakota
WTC 1 & 2 weren't controlled demolishes.. this theory has been bunked by several engineers already..

That picture is just plain wrong.

No where in the WTC towers were reinforced concrete columns used.

Originally posted by KilluminatiAnd they made that decision to pull and we watched the building collapse

How do you go from that to that they installed demolition explosives into the building??? How does their decision to not send more firefighters in to save the emptied building rate as 'evidence of a conspriacy "?

oh enough of the conspiracies already, sheesh, BUSH is the conspirators in all of this...isnt that what most of you are implying??? GET OVER IT ALREADY, blame the terrorists for what happened!

sorry if I sound heated...I know it's informative to discuss all the possible scenarios but I just am tired of all the conspiracies involving 9/11. If someone can twist and turn something so tragic as 9/11 then you wonder if there's anything they wouldn't contort. The accusatory and condescending tone being used in this discussion is just too much!

Can't remember what movie it was but I recall a CIA operative who planted bombs in elevator shafts with these sticky things that had wires attached to them in order to frame a certain individual.
the not so obvious can be easily overlooked, this is all so fishy, i'm not sure what to think, i know i have no conclusion drawn up, lot's of questions, and i'm not sure we'll ever know the whole story.


Didn't the fbi try to plant explosives in 93? And that was documented i believe... why would they want those buildings down anyway...

Originally posted by TrueLies
Can't remember what movie it was . . . .

If life was like a movie, I’d look like Robert Redford, drive a brand new car, live in a fancy house, etc. . . .


(oh, well two out of three aint bad )

Those towers came down dou to those jets, didn't they?!

[edit on 10-4-2005 by Bombardier]

Originally posted by Bombardier
Those towers came down dou to those jets, didn't they?!

[edit on 10-4-2005 by Bombardier]

Yes, It was a combination of the impact damage and the resulting fires.

Under ideal circumstances, neither one of which would have been enough to cause the collapses, but together, the buildngs were doomed.

Every time I see the vids of the WTC7 collapse, I cannot believe that a huge building like this came down due to a fire lasting for few hours.

We have news references of several spectecular fires concerning steel skyscrapers over the world. The last incident lasted for days, and only portions of the building fell away. The building did not collapse.

So how the hell did WTC7 fall in a fire that could be prevented? Also, the great precision of the collapse is also annoying.

Originally posted by Vertu
Every time I see the vids of the WTC7 collapse, I cannot believe that a huge building like this came down due to a fire lasting for few hours.

We have news references of several spectecular fires concerning steel skyscrapers over the world. The last incident lasted for days, and only portions of the building fell away. The building did not collapse.

So how the hell did WTC7 fall in a fire that could be prevented? Also, the great precision of the collapse is also annoying.

i agree! 100%!

say, howard, ever heard of phase cancellation?

Originally posted by Vertu
.........
So how the hell did WTC7 fall in a fire that could be prevented? Also, the great precision of the collapse is also annoying.

WTC7 did not just fall from a fire.....perhaps you remember there were powerful explosions from the other two towers which rocked the foundations of WTC7, that together with probably a good portion of the burning fuel, and burnig debris which flew into WTC7 from the explosion provoked the fires which subsequently made the building collapse.

I might as well post this in this thread as well:


This is what the firemen who were on site that day have to say about WTC 7.

Firehouse: Other people tell me that there were a lot of firefighters in the street who were visible, and they put out traffic cones to mark them off?

Hayden: Yeah. There was enough there and we were marking off. There were a lot of damaged apparatus there that were covered. We tried to get searches in those areas. By now, this is going on into the afternoon, and we were concerned about additional collapse, not only of the Marriott, because there was a good portion of the Marriott still standing, but also we were pretty sure that 7 World Trade Center would collapse. Early on, we saw a bulge in the southwest corner between floors 10 and 13, and we had put a transit on that and we were pretty sure she was going to collapse. You actually could see there was a visible bulge, it ran up about three floors. It came down about 5 o’clock in the afternoon, but by about 2 o’clock in the afternoon we realized this thing was going to collapse.

Firehouse:Was there heavy fire in there right away?

Hayden: No, not right away, and that’s probably why it stood for so long because it took a while for that fire to develop. It was a heavy body of fire in there and then we didn’t make any attempt to fight it. That was just one of those wars we were just going to lose. We were concerned about the collapse of a 47-story building there. We were worried about additional collapse there of what was remaining standing of the towers and the Marriott, so we started pulling the people back after a couple of hours of surface removal and searches along the surface of the debris. We started to pull guys back because we were concerned for their safety.

www.firehouse.com...

- - -

Boyle: A little north of Vesey I said, we’ll go down, let’s see what’s going on. A couple of the other officers and I were going to see what was going on. We were told to go to Greenwich and Vesey and see what’s going on. So we go there and on the north and east side of 7 it didn’t look like there was any damage at all, but then you looked on the south side of 7 there had to be a hole 20 stories tall in the building, with fire on several floors. Debris was falling down on the building and it didn’t look good.

But they had a hoseline operating. Like I said, it was hitting the sidewalk across the street, but eventually they pulled back too. Then we received an order from Fellini, we’re going to make a move on 7. That was the first time really my stomach tightened up because the building didn’t look good. I was figuring probably the standpipe systems were shot. There was no hydrant pressure. I wasn’t really keen on the idea. Then this other officer I’m standing next to said, that building doesn’t look straight. So I’m standing there. I’m looking at the building. It didn’t look right, but, well, we’ll go in, we’ll see.

So we gathered up rollups and most of us had masks at that time. We headed toward 7. And just around we were about a hundred yards away and Butch Brandies came running up. He said forget it, nobody’s going into 7, there’s creaking, there are noises coming out of there, so we just stopped. And probably about 10 minutes after that, Visconti, he was on West Street, and I guess he had another report of further damage either in some basements and things like that, so Visconti said nobody goes into 7, so that was the final thing and that was abandoned.

Firehouse:When you looked at the south side, how close were you to the base of that side?

Boyle: I was standing right next to the building, probably right next to it.

Firehouse:When you had fire on the 20 floors, was it in one window or many?

Boyle: There was a huge gaping hole and it was scattered throughout there. It was a huge hole. I would say it was probably about a third of it, right in the middle of it. And so after Visconti came down and said nobody goes in 7, we said all right, we’ll head back to the command post. We lost touch with him. I never saw him again that day.

We ended up getting back to the command post at Broadway and Vesey. By that time, there were probably 50 officers standing in a row. And I was like, I’m not going to stand on another line like that. So we came down with Fox. I knew Fox was somewhere. So we found out that Fox was over at Cortlandt and Church. They were putting a tower ladder into operation, so we made our way over to there. We ended up helping.

They had no pressure at all off of any of the hydrants from Broadway. He was asking if there was any way that we could do anything at Broadway or West. From Broadway to West westward toward Church Street there was no pressure at all. We spotted one of the squads up on Cortlandt over by Broadway and he was hooked up to a hydrant, and it was running. There was nobody there. I don’t know which squad it was, but you know they were in there. We were just sitting there, so we stretched the line off of him. We relayed it to 274, who relayed it to another engine down the street and eventually we got more pressure. I think it was 22 Truck on Church and Cortlandt and they were operating to number 5.

We did that for a little while. It took a while to get the hose there because there was a White Plains company helping us and they had some different fittings. So we got water to 22, but then that’s when they said all right, number 7 is coming down, shut everything down. I don’t know what time that was. It was all just a blur.

Firehouse: Did they shut the tower lines and remove them from there?

Boyle: No, just left them. Everything was left where it was. Just shut everything down, moved everybody back.

Firehouse: Could you see building 7 again from there?

Boyle: Seven, no. You got a half block away, you couldn’t see it, couldn’t see a damn thing. All we heard was they were worried about it coming down, everybody back away. We ran into the people running around for water for the eyes because everybody’s eyes were burned and I don’t know who they were. I think it was the doctor and some other people. They were just running around, washing people’s eyes out.

We were there about an hour or so until number 7 came down and everything was black again.

www.firehouse.com...



[edit on 19-6-2005 by HowardRoark]

[edit on 19-6-2005 by HowardRoark]

Some more:

www.firehouse.com...

Visconti: So now I was in contact with Jay. I found out what kind of shape he was in and I kept getting reports back from people that we’re not there yet, we’re working our way, there’s a collapsed area in 6. I’m standing not too far from Frank Fellini. He says, Nick, I’m really worried about this building. We were all worried because there was a lot of fire in it and we were concerned about the building collapsing. We weren’t sure that it was stable enough that it wasn’t going to collapse.

Firehouse: Which building was that?

Visconti: Building 6. So I had put a battalion chief with each of the groups that went into 6. I kept trying to talk to him, walking over there, walking down a little bit into the ramp they went down, the door they went down into and how are you doing? You know we’re trying, we can’t find it.

I don’t know how long this was going on, but I remember standing there looking over at building 7 and realizing that a big chunk of the lower floors had been taken out on the Vesey Street side. I looked up at the building and I saw smoke in it, but I really didn’t see any fire at that time.

. . .

Visconti: Now, World Trade Center 7 was burning and I was thinking to myself, how come they’re not trying to put this fire out? I didn’t realize how much they had because my view was obstructed. All I could see was the upper floor. At some point, Frank Fellini said, now we’ve got hundreds of guys out there, hundreds and hundreds, and that’s on the West Street side alone. He said to me, Nick, you’ve got to get those people out of there. I thought to myself, out of where? Frank, what do you want, Chief? He answered, 7 World Trade Center, imminent collapse, we’ve got to get those people out of there.

I was looking at the mass of people out there. There was no unit identification. I felt that I was losing control over this thing to begin with and now he was telling me to get them out of there. I was thinking, how the hell am I going to do this? There were a couple of chiefs out there who I knew and I called them individually. I said to them, listen, start backing those people out, we need them back up to the command post. While this was going on, I saw individual company officers. I was whistling, Captain, bring your guys this way.

I was getting some resistance. The common thing was, hey, we’ve still got people here, we don’t want to leave. I explained to them that we were worried about 7, that it was going to come down and we didn’t want to get anybody trapped in the collapse. One comment was, oh, that building is never coming down, that didn’t get hit by a plane, why isn’t somebody in there putting the fire out? A lot of comments, a bit of resistance, understandable resistance.

Now, it got to the point where I had some people moving, but there was still a tremendous number of people who were not moving. Here’s what I decided to do – there was a company there and I grabbed the officer. I said, I need you and your guys. There was a guy, Danny Messina from the 14th Division, with me the whole day and I sent him out as a runner. I said OK, go out, see that group over there, grab them, get somebody’s whose in charge, get one of the bosses, tell them we’re backing out of here. I sent him to these different places and I don’t know how long it took, 40 minutes, half an hour, an hour, I don’t know, but we started to get them out.

As I was getting them out, they were asking, where do you want us to go? Then somebody tipped me off, tell them to go to the North Cove Marina, that’s where the water was, tell them that go out that way. I said there’s a North Cove Marina and I think they had already started setting up water and triage and stuff, so we sent them out that way and it took a while. There were individual stragglers and everybody was walking this way and then some guy would walk in, we’d have to get to him.

I got a chief. I said, stand here, if you see anybody out there, get them back. I had to get the guys away from the north pedestrian walkway. There were a lot of people out there.

I walked out and I got to Vesey and West, where I reported to Frank. He said, we’re moving the command post over this way, that building’s coming down. At this point, the fire was going virtually on every floor, heavy fire and smoke that really wasn’t bothering us when we were searching because it was being pushed southeast and we were a little bit west of that. I remember standing just where West and Vesey start to rise toward the entrance we were using in the World Financial Center. There were a couple of guys standing with me and a couple of guys right at the intersection, and we were trying to back them up – and here goes 7. It started to come down and now people were starting to run. (Note, that he doesn't mention any sounds of the so-called "demolition squibs." - H.R.)

I said, that building is not coming this way, you could see where it was going, but I was concerned about debris. I got over near a vehicle, I don’t know what kind of vehicle. I sheltered in there a little bit and this dust cloud of debris came up and next thing you know, silence. Guys were all right. Nobody was running, hurt or anything like that. I heard later on that somebody got trapped in the debris of 7, but I don’t know.

Firehouse: I was going to ask you about that.

Visconti: I heard this from more than a couple of people that the guy got trapped. Now I don’t know that it was on the Vesey street side or if it was on the Church Street side, but I heard that repeatedly. I walk back to Frank Fellini. I said, Frank, I said this is an excellent opportunity for us to get this organized, to regroup. He said OK, tell those people on the North Cove Marina that we’re relieving them, we want them to take a blow. I’m pretty sure he assigned somebody back there or he told me to send somebody back there, so I sent somebody back there. I told them just tell them to relax, to take a blow.

Firehouse: Five o’clock is when Tower 7 came down.

Visconti: Five or 5:30. I was saying it’s good to know who’s here, but there’s no imminent collapse, there’s nothing hanging over us. It’s more stable. I said OK, pick out six or seven guys and walk over this way, we’ll pick up some, we’ll get over there.

Firehouse: Were you watching 7 World Trade Center?
Pfiefer: Yes, I watched 7. At one point, we were standing on the west side of West Street and Vesey. And I remember Chief Nigro coming back at that point saying I don’t want anybody else killed and to take everybody two blocks up virtually to North End and Vesey, which is a good ways up. And we stood there and we watched 7 collapse.

I also remember at one point trying to contact my brother on the radio and not being able to do that and I figure he’ll find me, I’m the guy in the white hat. It’s a lot easier to find me than for me to find him. When that didn’t occur, I wound up walking the site, looking for anybody from 33. The rig was intact on the corner, but I couldn’t find him or anybody else from 33.

Dennis Tardio was coming down the C stairs in building 7. At about the 9th or 10th floor, he met my brother Kevin, who told Dennis, you can’t get down these stairs, there was all sorts of debris. He directed him to the B stairs and, according to Captain Tardio, they got out of the building and 30 seconds later it started collapsing. If they would have continued in the same stairs, there was no way they would have been out. I’m not too sure if my brother stayed there a little longer and directed more companies along with his guys or he was doing what firemen do, make sure all the brothers get out.

Firehouse:Did they all get killed?
Pfiefer: Yes.

Firehouse: You couldn’t find anybody from 33?
Pfiefer: Right.

Norman:
All I could see was 5 World Trade Center on fire. That was a building that I had worked in. I had done a lot of the sprinkler work there when it was going up and I’m looking at this building. You know, it’s not supposed to be like this. There were some companies stretching lines on Vesey Street, so I went over there to see if they needed a hand. They were saying no, no, the guys around on the West Street side really need the help. I started to go down Vesey toward West, but there was a lot of debris blocking the way and they were telling me no, you don’t want to go down there – they’re worried about that building collapsing. I looked at 7 World Trade Center. There was smoke showing, but not a lot and I’m saying that isn’t going to fall. So I went up Church Street two more blocks and went across to West and went right down behind 7 and got a good look at three sides. Again, there were a lot of fires on the ground, some crushed mail trucks, some burned-up engines. It was a scene out of a war zone. I continued around to West and Vesey and reported into the command post. They were very concerned about fire extending into the telephone company building. They gave me a couple of companies and said get into the telephone company building and check on extension there. We had extension on the first and second floors, so we took some standpipe lines, put them in operation and knocked that down. From there, we looked out at 7 World Trade Center again. You could see smoke, but no visible fire, and some damage to the south face. You couldn’t really see from where we were on the west face of the building, but at the edge of the south face you could see that it was very heavily damaged.

. . .

Once I got out onto West and Liberty and see that there’s nothing left, the whole steel of that building is out covering the block, it’s just incredible. Now we’re still worried about 7. We have guys trying to make their way up into the pile, and they’re telling us that 7 is going to fall down – and that was one of the directions from the command post, to make sure we clear the collapse zone from 7 and this is a 600-foot-tall building, so we had to clear a 600-foot radius from that building. Guys are looking at me when I’m telling them to move away, we’re over by the north tower and we got to get out of here. They said what building you talking about? I said that building and they thought the phone company because through the smoke you couldn’t see what I’m talking about. They said that building isn’t going anywhere. I said no, not that building, the one next to it, the big one. It was tough getting them to understand what we’re talking about because until you had done either a couple of 360s around this whole site or if you got an aerial view somehow, you really couldn’t appreciate the scope of the damage.

ModicaSome stuff was burning. Buildings were burning, 7 World Trade was burning from the ground to the ceiling fully involved. It was unbelievable.

Claes:
We were kept away from building 7 because of the potential of collapse.

[edit on 19-6-2005 by HowardRoark]

From all of those stories a couple of things are abundantly clear.

One, the building was heavily damaged by the collapse of the North Tower,

Two, due to the smoke, dust, and general confusion, it wasn't immediately clear to everyone in the area the extent of the damage, but to those that got a good look at the south side of the building, it was obvious that the building was unsafe.

Originally posted by HowardRoark
Let?s look at the claims so far, shall we?

Claim: The owner of the building supposedly admitted that WTC7 was deliberateley demolished.

Status: Debunked. The term ?pull? as used meant to pull the firefighters out of the building.

Where? Where is it debunked? Because you say so. Yeah right.

I so far have 83 firefighters from the New York area recorded telling me that they have never used the term "pull it"

Some have said that they use the words "pull out" when exiting the firehouse in their engines.

Originally posted by Lanotom

Originally posted by HowardRoark
Let?s look at the claims so far, shall we?

Claim: The owner of the building supposedly admitted that WTC7 was deliberateley demolished.

Status: Debunked. The term ?pull? as used meant to pull the firefighters out of the building.

Where? Where is it debunked? Because you say so. Yeah right.

I so far have 83 firefighters from the New York area recorded telling me that they have never used the term "pull it"

Some have said that they use the words "pull out" when exiting the firehouse in their engines.

So do all 83 of these firefighters also beleive that WTC 7 was deliberately demolished?

How many of these are supervisors, chiefs, or such?

How many of these Firefighters talked to Silverstein on 9/11?