Alex Jones Arrested In New York

All this orange haze on this thread is repulsive...............

Every fool who wants to take up the street to protest expect that the people of this city will welcome them with open arms ? No way, I'm willing to waste my time circumventing traffic for the retarded interpretations of the few. If they have a problem they can file a lawsuit with a court.

As for that whole commie crap about "the richest economies have the strongest unions" thats a laugh! I'm sure thats why the Soviet Union operating the most powerful trade union couldnt make enough bread to feed their folk ?

Get a clue.

reply to post by StellarX

Stellar,

Sorry for your many misconceptions about the United States and it's form of government and freedoms. Of course you know more than I, I am after all, just a Commisar. Sorry, I've got to get back to beating the proletariat down. You have a good day. Keep fighting the power.

Originally posted by IAF101
All this orange haze on this thread is repulsive...............

I am open to suggestions if you think another color would be more 'attractive'. If you have suggestions as to how i can get my points across faster that would also be helpful.

Every fool who wants to take up the street to protest expect that the people of this city will welcome them with open arms ? No way, I'm willing to waste my time circumventing traffic for the retarded interpretations of the few.

While the criminal system still provides riches they may very well aid in it's defense but as far as i can tell most who defend the actions of such systems are just very badly informed or indoctrinated.

If they have a problem they can file a lawsuit with a court.

So your THAT well off?

As for that whole commie crap about "the richest economies have the strongest unions" thats a laugh! I'm sure thats why the Soviet Union operating the most powerful trade union couldnt make enough bread to feed their folk ?

Get a clue.

The citizens of the USSR lived far better than the vast majority of the people of the world since shortly after the second world war and while i don't see how you can , or why you would try, compare what they called unions with those in the largely democratic western European and Scandinavian countries i suppose that the type of comparisons one needs to make to defend their preconceived notions about the world.

Pavil: All you have done so far is circumvent the issues with denials and misunderstandings as to what constitutes the actual historic record so unless you wish to engage me in particulars please don't try to incite in spite.

Stellar

Originally posted by StellarX
I am open to suggestions if you think another color would be more 'attractive'. If you have suggestions as to how i can get my points across faster that would also be helpful.

Yes, drop this long winded quote /unquote fest. Its like a bad Technicolor hell.

While the criminal system still provides riches they may very well aid in it's defense but as far as i can tell most who defend the actions of such systems are just very badly informed or indoctrinated.

I dont even understand what the hell this statement means but I think you were trying to sound intelligent in there somewhere..

And yes I'm that well off that I can file a lawsuit and so are most Americans, which you would know if you were little more than google educated.

That WW2 assertion that the Soviet citizens lived better is so ridiculous its sad. I'm sure Stalin would give you a medal for that. Probably give you that commie title you like to keep shouting every now and again -"commissar" !
But for the rest of us who are in touch with reality and for the thousands of Soviet citizens who managed to live through Stalins rule would sure tell you different.

As for those unions in Scandinavia and across Europe, these are largely impotent and basically serve as an excuse for liberal socialist state sponsored doctrine. Despite your grand claims of unionism they are still do not have even half the economic might of the USA .But apparently living in a third world country with a history of genocidal oppression gives you first hand knowledge on what it takes to be a proper egalitarian society with a dominant economy.

Originally posted by IAF101
Yes, drop this long winded quote /unquote fest. Its like a bad Technicolor hell.

What method should i use to inform people as to what part of a post i am addressing?

I dont even understand what the hell this statement means but I think you were trying to sound intelligent in there somewhere..

I try but one i kinda dependent on the audience for some things to be understood. If i had to structure my posts so that the most ignorant of people may understand them i could potentially spends hours in response to a five line response.... I apologise for the fact that some of what i say do go over your head and if you have specific questions i will be sure to address them.

And yes I'm that well off that I can file a lawsuit and so are most Americans, which you would know if you were little more than google educated.

I started reading and educating myself long before google existed or the Internet become even marginally affordable in South-Africa... Filing a law suit is not the same as having your claims and wishes addressed and unless you understand the difference between democratic forms and democratic outcomes your missing the point.

That WW2 assertion that the Soviet citizens lived better is so ridiculous its sad. I'm sure Stalin would give you a medal for that. Probably give you that commie title you like to keep shouting every now and again -"commissar" !

What i said was that Russian citizens had a better living standard than the vast majority of the worlds population from at least the 1950's onwards. I could make that claim for before that date but i don't really wish to start talking about Stalin, famines and counting bodies. If you wish for copious amounts of quotes as to just how real, or rather not, those famines were feel free to start with your sources.

But for the rest of us who are in touch with reality and for the thousands of Soviet citizens who managed to live through Stalins rule would sure tell you different.

What i said made it almost explicitly clear that i was referring to the post Stalin era...

As for those unions in Scandinavia and across Europe, these are largely impotent and basically serve as an excuse for liberal socialist state sponsored doctrine.

Thanks for sharing your opinions with us. If you wish to do more than just tell us what you wish us to believe please start employing some sources as i am sure there must be think tanks that will have a study 'proving' that that is in fact the case....

Despite your grand claims of unionism they are still do not have even half the economic might of the USA

Right and given their territorial sizes, natural resource wealth, population sizes and the wars their leaders frequently visited on each other most of them are doing far better than the US.

But apparently living in a third world country with a history of genocidal oppression gives you first hand knowledge on what it takes to be a proper egalitarian society with a dominant economy.

So now the Apartheid regime was 'genocidal'? It's just surprising that white South Africans still number only about 5 odd million in a country of 45 million given the 'genocidal' intent of the previous regime! One wonders what the destruction of the indigenous people of North and South America and Australia should then be called. Should we make up a new war for successful genocides?

Stellar

Surely -- by now -- Alex Jones knows that a permit is needed to film in NYC, and have we confirmed that he does not indeed have one? . . . what is the official word on exactly why he was arrested? . . . seems more info is needed.

Dahl, I got a bit of a chuckle out of that one, myself. Maybe AJ is a bit radical in the eyes of some; yet, maybe that's what it takes to get a point across, today. Maybe he's fighting for what he believes in . . a fight for a free republic, governed in the interest of the People who populate a land of prosperity, opportunity and open speech.

Maybe many who treasure Justice and Truth will never be arrested for such a fight.

OTC;

Alex Jones was arrested for one very simple reason. He was being an ass. The official reason however was that he didnt have a permit to operate a sound amplification device. which is true.

Free Speech and all that dancing aside, his people are disrespectful to the dead. Disrespectful of Americans and new yorkers in particular. And in Ny nobody takes anything lying down. No what ever the hell he believes is upto him and if he wants to protest he can do it in Wisconsin but when you come to the place where thousands of families mourn their loved ones to use their death as a political tool and a gimmick for your propaganda, that crosses a line. It may not be written in the constitution but it is in people's consciousness and he cant expect that the police and the respectable newyorkers to accept his rubbish.

As for StellarX's;

What I find amusing is your blatantly incredulous claims. You say post world war Soviet union and then you say post Stalin. Unless you are trying to be blatantly disingenuous you cant possibly hope to fall on such shoddy reasoning because I dont think you expect me to believe that you want to skip past 35 years of post ww2 history for the convenience of your flimsy argument do you ? Now, providing quotes and a few articles that people consider 'proof' would be required only for those willing to educate the ignorant, I have no such intention.

As for your statements being above my head, that would be true if you define babble to be something intelligible, because you see I cant comprehend babble.

In the USA when one feels that they have been denied a constitutional guarantee and files a suit in a court of law to address this grievance, it is definitely addressed. Now that maybe something your legal system in your country doesnt comprehend but in advanced nations with a tradition of democratic rule like mine, we take our constitutional guarantees seriously. Our systems might not conform to your perceptions of democracy but to us your perceptions of democracy are irrelevant.

Coming to the ridiculous assertion about the Scandinavian unions and the like and about the "limitations" of their nations for their backwardness, I find that to be a shallow defense at best because obviously the Scandinavians have some of the greatest resources under their control for their population size and their relative obscurity in international affairs even gives them an edge as they dont have to commit resources to solving international problems.
Despite all these advantages they havent even been able to come into the top 5 economies of the world no matter how hard they try. Apparently, more union alloted breaks and less work makes Volvo sell out to Ford Motors

Originally posted by IAF101
OTC;

Alex Jones was arrested for one very simple reason. He was being an ass. The official reason however was that he didnt have a permit to operate a sound amplification device. which is true.

That's what they saying yes.

Free Speech and all that dancing aside, his people are disrespectful to the dead. Disrespectful of Americans and new yorkers in particular.

Do you know how many NY's actually believe that the government were at least responsible for the events of 9-11 due to their admitted inaction? Lets get a number from you before you continue defending people that don't even share your opinions.

And in Ny nobody takes anything lying down. No what ever the hell he believes is upto him and if he wants to protest he can do it in Wisconsin but when you come to the place where thousands of families mourn their loved ones to use their death as a political tool and a gimmick for your propaganda, that crosses a line.

What do you know about NY that makes you confident enough to speak for them? Has the events of 9-11 not been used as a political tool by the Bush regime to further their plans for a occupation of the ME? Why do you think Alex Jones is anywhere near as guilty as them?

It may not be written in the constitution but it is in people's consciousness and he cant expect that the police and the respectable new yorkers to accept his rubbish.

But they should at least pretend to follow the laws that do remain, right?

As for StellarX's;

What I find amusing is your blatantly incredulous claims. You say post world war Soviet union and then you say post Stalin. Unless you are trying to be blatantly disingenuous you cant possibly hope to fall on such shoddy reasoning because I don't think you expect me to believe that you want to skip past 35 years of post ww2 history for the convenience of your flimsy argument do you ?

As that was what i fact claimed and stated ( i think i said shortly after the second world war and Stalin died in 53') i do stand on that knowing that conditions in China, India, South America, Africa were worse than those in the USSR.

Now, providing quotes and a few articles that people consider 'proof' would be required only for those willing to educate the ignorant, I have no such intention.

You just wish i would stop actually insisting on the proof you never needed given your belief in the 'consensus' that obviously does not require something as mundane as actual proof.

As for your statements being above my head, that would be true if you define babble to be something intelligible, because you see I cant comprehend babble.

When you start studying REAL history my statements wont be hard to understand but since you are clearly happy in believing what the majority of your fellow elitist do i doubt i will get you reading anything more substantive.

In the USA when one feels that they have been denied a constitutional guarantee and files a suit in a court of law to address this grievance, it is definitely addressed.

In theory that's the case and that must explain why more than half the prison population in the USA is African American when they make up about 11% of the population. So much for their 'constitutionally rights' i suppose? Who can afford to defend their 'rights' in American courts and how many actually experiences the luxury of a jury trail? Do you have actual numbers or have you bought into the propaganda like everyone else?

t maybe something your legal system in your country doesn't comprehend but in advanced nations with a tradition of democratic rule like mine, we take our constitutional guarantees seriously. Our systems might not conform to your perceptions of democracy but to us your perceptions of democracy are irrelevant.

According to our elaborate laws we supposedly have even more rights than you guys do but given our hopelessly overburdened system and at least as horrendous history of oppression all those rights do not amount to all that much when they are not realised in practice.

Coming to the ridiculous assertion about the Scandinavian unions and the like and about the "limitations" of their nations for their backwardness, I find that to be a shallow defense at best because obviously the Scandinavians have some of the greatest resources under their control for their population size and their relative obscurity in international affairs even gives them an edge as they dont have to commit resources to solving international problems.

So please relate to us their various population sizes, natural wealth, territorial expanses and then compare their average living standards to those of Americans. I know what you will find and i thus know that your not going to bring up numbers in defense of your theories about those 'backward' Scandinavian countries.

Despite all these advantages they havent even been able to come into the top 5 economies of the world no matter how hard they try.

And how are they supposed to do that with so few people?

Apparently, more union alloted breaks and less work makes Volvo sell out to Ford Motors

The parent company , as i understand sold Volvo car corporation, only and i am sure that if we check the price we might find that Volvo made out like bandits and that even the premium brand and massive government subsidy is not saving ford from going under fast. I am not sure what this all have to do with bad unions or anything like that but i suppose you will grasp at any and all straws that present themselves.

Stellar

I'm glad he got arrested! He is one of the world’s most misinformation peddlers next to Michael Moore that the media has ever seen. Practically everything he says is false. It is just too bad that they don't keep him.

reply to post by StellarX


Okay I have to use quotes here because with so much prattle I have to weed out the more ridiculous bits..

Do you know how many NY's actually believe that the government were at least responsible for the events of 9-11 due to their admitted inaction? Lets get a number from you before you continue defending people that don't even share your opinions.

ROFL!!
Get a number from me ? Why should I give you anything? Not that your ridiculous assertion that there is really some "numbers" here to give you here because there arent and I know this for a fact. But I do know however that at least 70% New yorkers dont support the truthers BS. What kind of idiot does it take to watch 2 planes hijacked by terrorists crash into the buildings in front of your eyes and see the buildings come down and then claim that it was the "Government" ! New Yorkers arent that retarded. But obviously sitting in some third world hole gives you better "insight" as to what New Yorkers think right?

What do I know about ny ? I know much more than you could possibly ever know half a world away through some computer screen because I live and breathe here. And no 9/11 was not used to further any "occupation" because we have not occupied any country. Every country which has US troops has their own democratically elected leadership. That WE enabled and that wants us here.

As for why I think Alex Jones is scum, I think I've made myself clear in my last post. Read it again.

As that was what i fact claimed and stated ( i think i said shortly after the second world war and Stalin died in 53') i do stand on that knowing that conditions in China, India, South America, Africa were worse than those in the USSR.

So now its China, India, South America is it?? Such a pathetic cop out!
Your attempt at being disingenuous is pathetic because you know as well as I do that you were talking about the West and America specifically and you stated how unionized economies did so well compared to non-unionized ones.
Even the example you give are ridiculous and besides the point because even in China, India and South America after Stalin died there were many more unions than there were in America. China has the biggest trade union till date, you might have heard of it, its called the Communist party of China ? India also has a communist party that dates back to the 50s and so do many South American countries. So you attempts to say something ridiculous as if it were intelligent might work on the kiddies here but not me.

As for your insistence on proof, I dont really care what you insist on because like I said, I'm not here to educate you. I dont have to prove myself to you, if you dont believe me go read up. Thats upto you not me.

In theory that's the case and that must explain why more than half the prison population in the USA is African American when they make up about 11% of the population. So much for their 'constitutionally rights' i suppose? Who can afford to defend their 'rights' in American courts and how many actually experiences the luxury of a jury trail? Do you have actual numbers or have you bought into the propaganda like everyone else?

I dont know how they say it in Afrikaans but in English we have the saying that "All men are created equal." Now what you consider to be unrealistic that people in the US can actually get legal representation is actually true in this country. We even have a constitutional guarantee, called the Fourteenth Amendment that says nobody can deny a person equal representation under the law. Obviously something you might have missed out during your 'google studies'.

Coming to the prison demographic you might not yet comprehend the fact that in this country we treat all people equally under the law, so if 100 black people and 1 white man are found guilty of a crime, we wont let 99 black people walk away free to make things "even". Wrong is wrong, that is the way real jurisprudence works because unlike some we dont have separate courts for white people and separate courts for black people with different yard sticks. All those who are accused are brought to judged in a court of law.
As for affordability, the state provides an attorney free of charge should the accused not have one or the accused can represent himself if he satisfies the prerequisites. I'm sure that a US bar certified attorney here would be far more qualified to represent his client than some third world hack ever could in his country. In the US you dont need to defend your rights in court, because our courts know the rights of its citizens, instead people here exhibit how their rights were violated instead of trying to defend their rights. Also not all cases have jury trials, something you would know if you actually lived here. Most cases do not have jury trial here, only a few are brought to trial and tried in a trial court if they are not settled before. So you see, your fantasy of American jurisprudence that you have developed by sitting in front of your computer does not represent the real world.

Now coming to that Scandinavian nonsense you've been going on about. If you want me to compare territorial extent, population etc then why dont you compare those Scandinavian countries to say Luxembourg or Bermuda ? How do they compare ? Miserably!
You're whole analysis and mode of comparison is flawed, antiquated and foolish in a world of multinational companies and tax free zones. Those Scandinavians have done nothing extraordinary with or without their unions and the numbers you blindly read off some statistics table means nothing since you dont understand what they mean at all. To put it simply, unions havent done a damn thing for them and quality of life has nothing to do with unions, natural wealth, territorial expanse or any of that nonsense you are claiming. Just because one country has a huge territorial boundary and a vast horde for a population doesnt mean they have a better chance or better ability. Those antiquated factors no longer play a role in this century, something anybody who has an understanding of economics will know.

As for Volvo, they were sold at a bargain because your precious Scandinavians could manage a car company and Ford turned it into a profit. Why did I bring that up ? Because the biggest unions in the US are in the auto industry and one of the principle reasons for the financial difficulty faced by them right now. Yet despite their troubles the government does not interfere with private enterprise because this country doesnt subscribe to socialist doctrine like the Euros. A determination that cannot be made by somebody in a third world country behind a computer educating themselves "virtually"

Originally posted by OptionToChoose
Surely -- by now -- Alex Jones knows that a permit is needed to film in NYC, and have we confirmed that he does not indeed have one? . . . what is the official word on exactly why he was arrested? . . . seems more info is needed.

You do not need a permit to film in NY unless your going to do the type of stuff that disrupts traffic and the city in general over long spans of time.

Dahl, I got a bit of a chuckle out of that one, myself. Maybe AJ is a bit radical in the eyes of some; yet, maybe that's what it takes to get a point across, today.

That is what it has ALWAYS taken to get our point across.

Maybe he's fighting for what he believes in . . a fight for a free republic, governed in the interest of the People who populate a land of prosperity, opportunity and open speech.

And that's EXACTLY what he says his doing and i for one have seen little reason to doubt his sincerity or his effectiveness.

Maybe many who treasure Justice and Truth will never be arrested for such a fight.

If enough people took to the streets in support of Alex and all the others who fight in our interest far fewer would get assassinated or thrown into jail.

Stellar

Originally posted by IAF101
Okay I have to use quotes here because with so much prattle I have to weed out the more ridiculous bits..

Whatever pleases...

ROFL!!
Get a number from me ? Why should I give you anything? Not that your ridiculous assertion that there is really some "numbers" here to give you here because there arent and I know this for a fact.

The problem with people like you is not that you do not know but that you absolutely REFUSE to become better informed.

On the eve of a Republican National Convention invoking 9/11 symbols, sound bytes and imagery, half (49.3%) of New York City residents and 41% of New York citizens overall say that some of our leaders "knew in advance that attacks were planned on or around September 11, 2001, and that they consciously failed to act," according to the poll conducted by Zogby International. The poll of New York residents was conducted from Tuesday August 24 through Thursday August 26, 2004. Overall results have a margin of sampling error of +/-3.5.

The poll is the first of its kind conducted in America that surveys attitudes regarding US government complicity in the 9/11 tragedy. Despite the acute legal and political implications of this accusation, nearly 30% of registered Republicans and over 38% of those who described themselves as "very conservative" supported the claim.

www.zogby.com...

I have my issues with polls but given that Zogby polls are supposed to be quite useful and reliable maybe this poll does in fact indicate that New Yorkers are very suspicious of the events surrounding 9-11 and that they do not need you putting words in their mouths.

But I do know however that at least 70% New yorkers dont support the truthers BS. What kind of idiot does it take to watch 2 planes hijacked by terrorists crash into the buildings in front of your eyes and see the buildings come down and then claim that it was the "Government" ! New Yorkers arent that retarded.

Why should they be retarded for happening to disagree with your opinion? Are the other 30% of NY your not so sure of suddenly not important or 'retarded'?

But obviously sitting in some third world hole gives you better "insight" as to what New Yorkers think right?

I can read but maybe you have not caught on the Internet revolution and the fact that overseas magazines are in fact available in Africa?

What do I know about ny ? I know much more than you could possibly ever know half a world away through some computer screen because I live and breathe here.

Don't you think i know what type of barriers there are to me having anything like first hand knowledge? Don't you think that to be the reason why i employ so many sources?

And no 9/11 was not used to further any "occupation" because we have not occupied any country. Every country which has US troops has their own democratically elected leadership. That WE enabled and that wants us here.

Afghanistan and Iraq are occupied countries and which remotely objective countries and or party's believes that those countries have democratically elected rulers? Do you even know who drew up the lists that told Afghans and Iraqi's who could be voted for? Lets see you try....

As for why I think Alex Jones is scum, I think I've made myself clear in my last post. Read it again.

Yes you have but you have not often ( i can't even think of a instance) supplied evidence , that remotely held up, as to why you actually believe that.

So now its China, India, South America is it?? Such a pathetic cop out!

I made it clear that the citizens of the USSR were far better off than the majority of the worlds population who actually live in those places. Where did you think the majority of the worlds people lived in 1960 or even now? Why can't you seem to address my claims and instead attack claims i never made?

Your attempt at being disingenuous is pathetic because you know as well as I do that you were talking about the West and America specifically and you stated how unionized economies did so well compared to non-unionized ones.

The citizens of the USSR lived far better than the vast majority of the people of the world since shortly after the second world war

www.abovetopsecret.com...

So that's what i in fact said and why you have chosen to so blatantly misrepresent that is quite beyond me.
As to the Union issue i think it's once again indicative of your agenda when you presume that i intended the state run Unions of the USSR with the private one's in the countries i actually referred to.

Even the example you give are ridiculous and besides the point because even in China, India and South America after Stalin died there were many more unions than there were in America.

What does India's, South America and China's Unions have to do with Stalin? How are many fractured unions that are under governmental siege more effective than those well organised private one's in Scandinavia that actually enjoys legal protections? What do you have against unions and why have you bought into the corporate propaganda that they are 'bad' for you?

China has the biggest trade union till date, you might have heard of it, its called the Communist party of China ?

Right and we all know that that 'union' are being run by people that were NOT elected. Why did you forget to mention the fact that most of the unions you mentioned are entirely undemocratic? My reference to Western European and Scandinavian prosperity makes it rather self evident that ALL unions are not equal and that those who do anything for the people clearly have to be controlled and run BY the people in democratic societies.

India also has a communist party that dates back to the 50s and so do many South American countries.

So what?

So you attempts to say something ridiculous as if it were intelligent might work on the kiddies here but not me.

I will let the readers decide who is saying and presuming the ridiculous in defense of their earlier misinformation and misrepresentations.

As for your insistence on proof, I dont really care what you insist on because like I said, I'm not here to educate you. I dont have to prove myself to you, if you dont believe me go read up. Thats upto you not me.

Well if you don't think you need proof to defend your convictions you don't as it's clearly not beliefs that are intended to adhere to reality and observation but entirely self serving dogma's that can not be inspected for accuracy.

I dont know how they say it in Afrikaans but in English we have the saying that "All men are created equal." Now what you consider to be unrealistic that people in the US can actually get legal representation is actually true in this country.

For SOME it is and they can and do get away with murder.

We even have a constitutional guarantee, called the Fourteenth Amendment that says nobody can deny a person equal representation under the law. Obviously something you might have missed out during your 'google studies'.

That's the theory and maybe you should check why one US Governor halted all executions in his state because so many people on death row were being released due to new evidence being found. The US constitution certainly contain great rights that the American citizens have gained by struggle over the years but those rights can normally only be defended when you have very deep pockets or happen to be on the right side of current political agenda.

Coming to the prison demographic you might not yet comprehend the fact that in this country we treat all people equally under the law, so if 100 black people and 1 white man are found guilty of a crime, we wont let 99 black people walk away free to make things "even".

But they are not in fact guilty of violence in instances too numerous to mention not guilty of anything at all! Being African American makes you guilty by color association and that's reflected in the fact that as large a percent of whites are using drugs but are escaping prosecutiion, and certainly the stiff sentencing, due to being presented to opportunity to plead out on very lenient charges or sentences.

Wrong is wrong, that is the way real jurisprudence works because unlike some we dont have separate courts for white people and separate courts for black people with different yard sticks. All those who are accused are brought to judged in a court of law.

Wrong is wrong and that is why the US should for instance drop the racist death penalty that most civilized countries everywhere have long ago done away with.

As for affordability, the state provides an attorney free of charge should the accused not have one or the accused can represent himself if he satisfies the prerequisites. I'm sure that a US bar certified attorney here would be far more qualified to represent his client than some third world hack ever could in his country.

So this all comes down to the US being 'better' than anywhere else even if that is not true to start with? Would you want a court appointed attorney and shall i present you with the numerous horror stories of them sleeping during trail or asking the judge for stiffer sentences for their 'clients'? Stop watching all those nonsensical cop and lawyer shows and do some actual reading.

Continued

In the US you dont need to defend your rights in court, because our courts know the rights of its citizens, instead people here exhibit how their rights were violated instead of trying to defend their rights. Also not all cases have jury trials, something you would know if you actually lived here.

I told YOU that as you were apparently under the illusion that many trails went to jury as the founders apparently intended.. What do you mean by claiming that you do not have to defend your rights in Us courts when they are trying to do away with jury trials altogether thus leaving it up to behind the scenes machinations that few are privy to?

Most cases do not have jury trial here, only a few are brought to trial and tried in a trial court if they are not settled before.

Because only so much funds is allocated for jury trails leading to a very small percentage being afford such a luxury.

We oppose the government’s plans to limit the right to a trial by jury because we believe they run the risk of creating “executive justice”. What lies behind the government’s thinking in this is that ordinary people are not bright enough to try fraud cases. We completely reject this. It is patronising. The Serious Fraud Office, which is responsible for conducting fraud prosecutions, has an 86 per cent conviction rate. That shows, clearly, in our view, that ordinary people are well able to understand the issues in these cases.

The proposals are also anti-democratic. The Bar wants to keep ordinary citizens at the heart of the democratic process. Having trial by jury is the most democratic way in which the criminal justice system can operate. Ordinary people decide, not judges.

America has the right to jury trial as a constitutional right as does neighbouring countries such as Ireland. Spain wants to introduce trial by jury to its system. Our government wants to erode the right.

www.pcs.org.uk...

Whether the shrinking number of jury trials is good or bad news depends on whom you ask, but one thing is certain: Fewer trials mean fewer trial-ready lawyers.

By some estimates, jury trials have declined to less than 2 percent of all cases filed. The decrease is so pronounced that it sparked a confab of judges, scholars and practitioners at the American Bar Association's recent annual conference in Atlanta. There, 5th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals Judge Patrick E. Higginbotham blamed the falling numbers on clogged dockets, where cases flow through the courts "like a rat through a python."

Between 1962 and 2002, the number of federal civil cases resolved by trial plunged from 11 percent to 1.8 percent, according to a January ABA report, "The Vanishing Trial." And the number of trials per year showed a net drop of more than 20 percent over the same period, starting at 5,802, peaking to 12,529 in 1985 and falling to 4,569, the report concluded. The decline occurred despite a fivefold increase in cases resolved, from about 50,000 to almost 260,000. Federal criminal trials fell from 15 percent to 4.7 percent.

www.law.com...

So you see, your fantasy of American jurisprudence that you have developed by sitting in front of your computer does not represent the real world.

In the 'real' world only a tiny percentage of Americans can defend themselves in front of their peers and obviously those are those who have standing in the community or could not be beaten or otherwise forced to 'reach' a 'settlement'.

Now coming to that Scandinavian nonsense you've been going on about. If you want me to compare territorial extent, population etc then why dont you compare those Scandinavian countries to say Luxembourg or Bermuda ? How do they compare ? Miserably!

And you must have presumable forgotten about the fact that those countries are known as financial hubs with only a small volume of the money every finding a place there with Luxembourg again providing that no funds would stay if the citizens did not demand proper unionized protections for themselves and their banks. Bermuda may have a relatively large GNP but how are the people doing? Right....

You're whole analysis and mode of comparison is flawed, antiquated and foolish in a world of multinational companies and tax free zones.

Which are all things that are BAD for people, their local economy and even the world at large.

Those Scandinavians have done nothing extraordinary with or without their unions and the numbers you blindly read off some statistics table means nothing since you dont understand what they mean at all.

Now we know what you believe but what can you present that validates your opinions? What numbers are wrong and why are those countries rated so highly by both their citizens and the citizens of other countries?

To put it simply, unions havent done a damn thing for them and quality of life has nothing to do with unions, natural wealth, territorial expanse or any of that nonsense you are claiming.

That is a fantastical claim and since you are so utter inept at sourcing your claims i will others who know the details judge for themselves or take up the argument with actual sources.

Just because one country has a huge territorial boundary and a vast horde for a population doesnt mean they have a better chance or better ability.

So why were India and China the largest economies for most of the past thousand years? Have you studied any history?

Those antiquated factors no longer play a role in this century, something anybody who has an understanding of economics will know.

What do you know about economics that have led you to believe that unions do no matter and that more people are not on the face of it a better thing for any given country? Who does the work that makes wealthy possible but the people? You must be one of those people that believe that wealth is 'generated' from moving large sums of money from computer to computer day in and day out!

As for Volvo, they were sold at a bargain because your precious Scandinavians could manage a car company and Ford turned it into a profit.

Ford lost about 13 billion USD the last year and that's even with the addition of prime acquisitions like Volvo. If you wish to argue that a ford is better than a volvo lets get the debate moving as that should be VERY interesting indeed!

Why did I bring that up ? Because the biggest unions in the US are in the auto industry and one of the principle reasons for the financial difficulty faced by them right now.

So Unions are powerful enough to be blamed for all the ills of industry but according to you they play no role in wealth creation for the citizens of the US? It's just fascinating how you can skirt the open contradictions and move right on to telling us all about your 'opinions' and how your not going to defend them to anyone!

Yet despite their troubles the government does not interfere with private enterprise because this country doesnt subscribe to socialist doctrine like the Euros.

Which is once again a blatant lie or misrepresentation as there is no country in the world that gives larger tax breaks and subsidies to keep it's corporations in operation! Should i compile a list of how many of the Top 100 US corporations would still exist without government bailouts and various financial devices to make them competitive?

A determination that cannot be made by somebody in a third world country behind a computer educating themselves "virtually"

So basically i am 'wrong' because i am in the third world country? This strikes me as a interesting type of racism but i don't suppose i should be surprised given your more general beliefs!

Stellar

[edit on 29-10-2007 by StellarX]