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You actually believe that you know?

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posted on Sep, 8 2007 @ 08:07 AM
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With the ever growing arguments over ToE and Creationism I thought I'd start a thread asking why either of you have any right to think that you actually know anything at all about the existence of the universe/life at all.

We are nothing but a minute speck on another mintue speck in the vastness of the universe with billions among billions of other minute specks and we think that we know why were here? We can give as many excuses and beliefs that we want but the real FACT is that we have no idea at all and most likely what we believe is WRONG. If it makes you feel better and makes your life easier than by all means keep doing what you're doing. BUT don't argue with anybody else that doesn't think the same way as you cause YOU have NO idea at all.




posted on Sep, 8 2007 @ 09:02 AM
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Originally posted by I See You
With the ever growing arguments over ToE and Creationism I thought I'd start a thread asking why either of you have any right to think that you actually know anything at all about the existence of the universe/life at all.


well, i do know something about it, that's quite clear. i'm fairly versed in the natural laws, physics, chemistry, biology, etc.

this isn't an all or nothing proposition here, it's a graded scale. we have plenty left to learn but we still know much.



We are nothing but a minute speck on another mintue speck in the vastness of the universe with billions among billions of other minute specks and we think that we know why were here?


just because we are small specks doesn't mean we don't have any clue...

and you're going to assume that there is a "why"
i'd say that there is no question to "why we are here"



We can give as many excuses and beliefs that we want but the real FACT is that we have no idea at all and most likely what we believe is WRONG.


no... see, evolution has all this stuff that we call EVIDENCE... which is another word for FACTS... to support it. if you're going along with evolution, what you believe is actually most likely RIGHT.



If it makes you feel better and makes your life easier than by all means keep doing what you're doing.


um... ok, now you're going to put religion and reason in the same bag...
so how is it that science is wrong here?



BUT don't argue with anybody else that doesn't think the same way as you cause YOU have NO idea at all.


no, i have quite the idea, it's called science...



posted on Sep, 8 2007 @ 09:11 AM
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I'm not saying that we know nothing at all(I see that I did put that in my original post though). We do know a little something about our solar system and some of our galaxy but that is fractional when it comes to the universe,origin and life as we know it. And I do understand life as we have it here on earth also. Why we have it...NO

We don't have the means to look and study the universe's origins in depth at this time. When you really sit back and think....it's really beyond us at this time. Yes we give our best judgement on what we know right NOW with the tools we have to use.

To say how it started is inconvievable. The big bang for instance. To go from something smaller than the smallest part of an atom to what the universe is now and expanding. By the way I love science, I am not against it.

[edit on 8-9-2007 by I See You]



posted on Sep, 8 2007 @ 10:52 AM
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Hi people,

Had to add my piece.

Have you not heard of quantum mechanics? I suggest you look it up. This alone tells you a lot about the workings of the universe.




no... see, evolution has all this stuff that we call EVIDENCE... which is another word for FACTS... to support it. if you're going along with evolution, what you believe is actually most likely RIGHT.


Actually I need to correct you here. There are fossils but none of them prove the theory of evolution; in fact they tend to disprove it more than prove it.

I think someone need's to do some research.
Good Luck.



posted on Sep, 8 2007 @ 11:42 AM
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Hmmm, actually there's a quote that I think could apply here:

"When you understand why you don't believe in my God, you'll understand why I don't believe in yours."

Now, I am NOT trying to start a religious debate, I just think that this type of reasoning can apply to the people the OP is referring to. The OP is absolutely right in saying that people think and talk like they know. I wonder where mankind would be at right now if we actually did know.



posted on Sep, 8 2007 @ 11:48 AM
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reply to post by WeAreOne
 


How exactly do fossils DISPROVE evolution? I would really like to see this alternative theory, since biologists, paleontologists and other life scientists accept evolution BECAUSE of the fossils.

Please, don't link to Dr. Dino's site. he's a fraud.



posted on Sep, 8 2007 @ 12:09 PM
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reply to post by MajorMalfunction
 

Kent Hovind(Dr. Dino), is a small voice of dissent against the status quo of evolution.
Just because the I.R.S. set upon him in spite of his tax exempt
status as a ministry, doesn't discount any of his studies!



posted on Sep, 8 2007 @ 12:14 PM
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Originally posted by Clearskies
Kent Hovind(Dr. Dino), is a small voice of dissent against the status quo of evolution.
Just because the I.R.S. set upon him in spite of his tax exempt
status as a ministry, doesn't discount any of his studies!


All of his "studies" were busted a long time before he had legal problems. He doesn't even have a degree, how do you expect him to do studies?



posted on Sep, 8 2007 @ 12:22 PM
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Originally posted by DarkSide

Originally posted by Clearskies
Kent Hovind(Dr. Dino), is a small voice of dissent against the status quo of evolution.
Just because the I.R.S. set upon him in spite of his tax exempt
status as a ministry, doesn't discount any of his studies!



All of his "studies" were busted a long time before he had legal problems. He doesn't even have a degree, how do you expect him to do studies?


Not "busted" at all!
Because many follow the dictates of popular evolutionary theology!
They can't see the forest for the trees.
His degree comes from Patriot University, which, being a christian institution, is persecuted and ignored by the bigger state Universities who teach pornography classes.



posted on Sep, 8 2007 @ 12:27 PM
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Originally posted by Clearskies
Not "busted" at all!
Because many follow the dictates of popular evolutionary theology!
They can't see the forest for the trees.


Erm no, Hovind has no understanding at all of basic biology or even high school science. He has no credibility and I doubt anyone takes him seriously apart from fundies.


His degree comes from Patriot University, which, being a christian institution, is persecuted and ignored by the bigger state Universities who teach pornography classes.


And rightly so. His so called degree concerns religion, and doesn't give him any credibility as a critic of evolution. Face it, he doesn't understand evolution. He has said things you'd expect from a 6 year old.



posted on Sep, 8 2007 @ 12:33 PM
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Have you ever seen Patriot 'university'. It's just a shack in the middle of nowhere.

It's a degree mill. Hovind's thesis has been checked by others with PhDs and it's a joke thesis. Full of typos and sellotaped diagrams, heh. PhD theses should be made available in a university library for all to assess, but his is only made available on permision of Hovind.

To even think that place give decent degrees takes the p!ss out of the real hard work and scholarship required for a PhD.

[edit on 8-9-2007 by melatonin]



posted on Sep, 8 2007 @ 12:43 PM
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I have actually thought about this very topic for years now.

Theories are theories. No one single person has THE answer to everything we can perceive. We can use science as a tool to "understand" bits and pieces, but actual "facts" that "prove" anything are hard to come by.

Evidence, is evidence of theory. Without evidence, science would just be random guesswork. Evidence leads to discovery, discovery leads to enlightenment. However, how can one become enlightened when there are so many clashing theories with so-called evidence to support them?

How we came to be and why we are here are profound spiritual questions that defy any earthy science. The OP is 100% right when saying that humans know absolutly nothing compared to the infinite expanse of the multiverse.

Think about it this way....If as others have said in previous threads that we are living in a simulated universe, EVERYTHING we know of would be a computer generated simulation and NOTHING would be real.

Who is to say that we are or are not?
Ego is a killer, my advice would be to absorb information as to comes and sift it with an open mind.

Good thread



[edit on 8-9-2007 by IMAdamnALIEN]



posted on Sep, 8 2007 @ 01:01 PM
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Originally posted by melatonin
Have you ever seen Patriot 'university'. It's just a shack in the middle of nowhere.


What do you expect from a University without grants, subsidies,etc...like the State Universities have?


It's a degree mill. Hovind's thesis has been checked by others with PhDs and it's a joke thesis. Full of typos and sellotaped diagrams, heh. PhD theses should be made available in a university library for all to assess, but his is only made available on permision of Hovind.


Who are these 'others' that inspected his degree/and were they unbiased?
Typos are common with scholars many times, that doesn't mean anything.
"sellotaped" diagrams???



[edit on 8-9-2007 by melatonin]



posted on Sep, 8 2007 @ 01:21 PM
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Originally posted by Clearskies
What do you expect from a University without grants, subsidies,etc...like the State Universities have?


I would expect them to act like a true university with proper standards. As for the building, that is not so important, but still worth a chuckle.


Who are these 'others' that inspected his degree/and were they unbiased?
Typos are common with scholars many times, that doesn't mean anything.
"sellotaped" diagrams???


Heh, these are like very basic spelling mistakes that a 10 year old would overlook. All proper PhD theses go through multiple editing, and undergo serious examination from a series of committee members with PhDs, given no-one expects people to catch every typo, but apparently Hovind's is riddled with them.

Hovind's thesis apparently has a diagram that has been cut out of a book and is glued/sellotaped in place, heh.

I know you've likely never seen a proper PhD thesis before, but apparently Hovind's is like a child-like effort. No title, no page numbers, no references, etc etc. Essentially, a PhD thesis should be of a high scholarly standard, not a child's play thing. It should also contain a substantive element of original research.

These are Hovind's words when challenged about the discrepncy in that he said his thesis was 250 pages long (about norm for a 'big-book' thesis)...


My dissertation was originally about 100 pages. I continued adding material and it grew to 250 pages. Over the last 10 years I have constantly been adding material. It is now many hundreds of pages and will be put into book form as time permits

chem.tufts.edu...

This is bullcrap, once done (i.e. passed by committee), a thesis is done. You don't go adding to it over a decade.

[edit on 8-9-2007 by melatonin]



posted on Sep, 8 2007 @ 01:54 PM
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clearskies, once a fraud always a fraud. He lied to the IRS. He's lied to you and other fundies too.

Just because a whack job has a diploma from a diploma mill doesn't make him a paleontologist, it just makes him a liar.

And there is an interesting trend among people who believe in these crazy, unverified, un-provable theories with no empirical evidence -- they are willing to lie about them despite the commandment instructing them that to bear false witness is one of the worst sins.

If you believe Hovind, you've been led astray -- what does the bible say about false prophets? I think that passage can cover false scientists as well.



posted on Sep, 9 2007 @ 04:56 AM
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Originally posted by I See You
I'm not saying that we know nothing at all(I see that I did put that in my original post though). We do know a little something about our solar system and some of our galaxy but that is fractional when it comes to the universe,origin and life as we know it. And I do understand life as we have it here on earth also. Why we have it...NO


i'm sure that i brought this up before... but you're actually implying that there has to be a why. the why could simply be a superfluous question. life probably simply is.



We don't have the means to look and study the universe's origins in depth at this time. When you really sit back and think....it's really beyond us at this time.


no, we actually can do quite a bit on that part with regards to examining the color shift in light, background radiation, etc.



Yes we give our best judgement on what we know right NOW with the tools we have to use.


and you're severely underestimating those tools.



To say how it started is inconvievable. The big bang for instance. To go from something smaller than the smallest part of an atom to what the universe is now and expanding. By the way I love science, I am not against it.


yes... it may SEEM inconceivable... but it's fairly well supported. it also makes a bit more sense when you realize that the infinitely small thing contained the whole of the universe's matter and energy.

edit to add:
with regards to "dr" kent hovind...
here's a website that you might want to look over: www.kent-hovind.com...

note: his phd is in "christian education"
under florida state law he should always mention that his phd is in such a religious field... however, he repeatedly misrepresents himself by stating he has a phd in "education"

[edit on 9/9/07 by madnessinmysoul]



posted on Sep, 9 2007 @ 05:35 AM
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Originally posted by I See You
With the ever growing arguments over ToE and Creationism I thought I'd start a thread asking why either of you have any right to think that you actually know anything at all about the existence of the universe/life at all.

We are nothing but a minute speck on another mintue speck in the vastness of the universe with billions among billions of other minute specks and we think that we know why were here? We can give as many excuses and beliefs that we want but the real FACT is that we have no idea at all and most likely what we believe is WRONG. If it makes you feel better and makes your life easier than by all means keep doing what you're doing. BUT don't argue with anybody else that doesn't think the same way as you cause YOU have NO idea at all.





Good post, I guess a lot of people are arguing about what the evidence we have suggests in terms of the origins of the universe. Without debate and study we would never get an answer.

Personally I believe the scientific evidence for evolution but spiritualism has it's place in this discussion as well although I am not sure where as yet.

In the end it doesn't really make all that much difference, we are here and should be focusing on how to move forward before worrying about such irrelevant arguments.



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