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Doubt Israel will exist long-term

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posted on Sep, 7 2007 @ 04:44 PM
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That land rightfully belongs to Israel, and how can Israel coexist with Hamas?




Founded in 1987, Hamas was the Gaza Strip branch of the Islamist Muslim Brotherhood movement founded in Egypt. Hamas is opposed to the existence of Israel, with one Hamas parliamentarian denouncing the 1993 Oslo Accords as "not a peace process" and "a process of deception and cheating and lies which enabled Israel to truncate our homeland with settlements and separation walls and roadblocks and closed military zones."[55] In 2004 Hamas offered a 10-year truce, or hudna, in exchange for several conditions including a complete withdrawal from Israeli-occupied territories (see below).
Wiki


Israel was there first, so why should they give up their land? That is like Russia when they had the USSR, when they fell they gave back everyones countries. Some of those places in the Middle East are not the occupied by the rightful owners.




posted on Sep, 7 2007 @ 05:03 PM
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reply to post by Equinox99
 


Israel was there first?
most the land Israel in on is former palistaine

even after the creation of israel after world war 2
it was much smaller in size, over the last few decades they have stolen more land, built a berlins style wall on palistianin land (one thing to build such thing in ones yeard but another to build it in the yard of another.

also Israel has been descriminating agaist Israeli arabs for decades now to ensure that they dont grow in numbers. for example if you are israeli and married to a palistinain you have a choice leave the country and stay with your partner and kids or stay in israel on your own.

as stated before Israeli arabs have a higher birth rate and make up 1/4 of israels populace.

i will look for the bbc article for that to back it up.

if israel truely wanted peace it would go back to its own boarders
shown by international laws.

[edit on 7-9-2007 by bodrul]



posted on Sep, 7 2007 @ 05:47 PM
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I think Israel brings alot of the hate on themself. They should have either a. took the disputed land and called it theres in the beginning or b. went back to where the UN lines had originally been drawn. To military occupy someones land for decades... what did they expect but to enrage the people? I would be pissed too if I was born onto land that was occupied by a military force that was there in violation of the UN? Israel also pushes too many countries buttons. Just look at them violating Syria's airspace, what business did they have there? They had to know Syria would be pissed about that. They need to cool their jets, but they wont. I wish Israel would not act the way they do, yes they have every right to defend themselfs from mortar and rocket attacks but to keep building housing devlopments on land that is not their own is just asking for trouble. I for one do not want to be drafted into some god forsaken war to defend Israel because they wont do whats right.



posted on Sep, 7 2007 @ 05:56 PM
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As a side note,isnt it odd that though facing superior numbers israel has yet to lose a war?That says something,imo.



Well no, it makes fine sense. Israel has what it has because of the USA. You dont see them using Kalashnikovs, they use m4 style weapons, american. They have american planes...and those nukes, well lets not get into that.

Now russia is taking an interest in Iran and wouldnt it be reminiscent of some cold war play for russia to take an interest in other arab middle eastern states. hmmm.



posted on Sep, 7 2007 @ 06:08 PM
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Originally posted by SmokeyJo
Wow, thats intresting, can you please provide a source, I would be intrested to learn more

Sure. I cannot find on-line versions but here are the newspaper articles.


23 March 2007 - The Independent - Arab Israelis: the facts - by MAGNUS SLINGSBY
In 2006, the number of Arabs in Israel was calculated at around 1.4 million people, or 19.8 per cent of the population.

Following the 1948 Arab-Israeli War, 156,000 Arabs remained within the state of Israel. Much of Israel’s present-day Arab population is descended from these people, and a number have been able to gain Israeli citizenship because of family ties.

Following the Six-Day War in 1967 and the annexation of Eastern Jerusalem and the Golan Heights, Arabs living in these areas were offered Israeli citizenship, but many refused. Despite this, they are classed as Israeli citizens in most demographic analyses.

80 per cent of the Arab population of Israel is Muslim (of which a substantial number are of Bedouin descent), with 9 per cent Christian and 9 per cent Druze. The city of Nazareth has the largest Christian Arab population in the country.

With a birth rate of 4.0, population forecasters predict that Muslim Arabs will make up 25 per cent of Israel’s population within the next 15 years.


and specifically regarding Jerusalem.


8 May 2007 Agence France Presse - Jerusalem's Arab population rising twice as fast as its Jewish
Over the past 40 years the Arab population has grown by 257 percent from 68,000 to its current level of 245,000, while the number of Jews living in the city has risen by 140 percent -- from 200,000 to 475,000.

The Arab birth rate for the past decade has been between three percent and four percent, more than double that of Jews. If this trend continues Arabs will make up 50 percent of the population by 2035, the report said.

If Israel remains a democracy, it will cease to be "the Jewish state" in the long term. Representing another 5% of Israel's total population in the 15 years is incredibly fast growth.



posted on Sep, 7 2007 @ 06:09 PM
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Originally posted by Equinox99
That land rightfully belongs to Israel, and how can Israel coexist with Hamas?

Uhm, read the Bible. The Israelites conquered the land of Israel from the Canaanites. If they can claim an eternal right to live on land they conquered then so can the Muslims who conquered the land after them.



posted on Sep, 7 2007 @ 08:32 PM
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Originally posted by subz

Originally posted by Equinox99
That land rightfully belongs to Israel, and how can Israel coexist with Hamas?

Uhm, read the Bible. The Israelites conquered the land of Israel from the Canaanites. If they can claim an eternal right to live on land they conquered then so can the Muslims who conquered the land after them.

That is why there is no side solution, only a middle one, where the 2 of them can coexist on the same pice of land, since the 2 sides have roots there the only way everyone would be happy would be sharing everything.
If one of the sides is in control of everying then the other becomes upset...and so on, the only way peace would dominate that region is by creating a palestinian- israelian state.
There is no other solution.



posted on Sep, 7 2007 @ 10:56 PM
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The thing that I like about them is that they are a liberal threshold in the middle east, surrounded by backwards conservative theocracies.

In all honesty, being the extremist liberal I am, I wouldn't mind them to say, invade Saudi Arabia due to their treating women like dirt, killing of homosexuals, and general human rights violations, for instance.

Well, I wouldn't mind it if it wouldn't cause every Muslim on earth to become terrorists.

Sharia law needs to be obliterated. I've said it before and I'll say it again, and I will not change my mind on this.

Mind you I am not attacking Islam per say, there are Muslim majority countries that have freedom of speech and religion, such as Turkey for instance.



posted on Sep, 7 2007 @ 11:00 PM
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May I suggest this as a student of history...?

The Jews never laid claim to the land now called "Israel" prior to WWII.

They en-masse left the holy land over the centuries and basically became more of a "religion" than an ethnic heritage.

Most of the current Israeli Jews do NOT look like *indigenous* people's of the Arabian peninsula. Why is this? Because most came from Russia and Europe and can claim European ancestry.

The backing of the creation of Israel was one of the United States worst mistakes following WWII.



posted on Sep, 8 2007 @ 12:31 AM
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The Israeli AF is 2nd to none in the world. Organized, great leadership, and truly dedicated AND highly skilled warriors. Not some children holding AK or have bombs strapped on their chest.

These though people will survive, even after the chinese, the americans, the arabs are gone.

Bet my money on them vs. any country in the mideast.



posted on Sep, 8 2007 @ 01:11 AM
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Israel will stay forever, well at least for another thousand years or so. The Bible guarantees it, and the Bible is never wrong. It predicted the return of Israel, which itself is an unbelievable miracle if you think about it.

Amos 9:14,15



I will bring back my exiled [g] people Israel;
they will rebuild the ruined cities and live in them.
They will plant vineyards and drink their wine;
they will make gardens and eat their fruit.

15 I will plant Israel in their own land,
never again to be uprooted
from the land I have given them,"
says the LORD your God.


In fact all the nations will fight against Israel to try to destroy her and fail! If that isn't a sign that God's hand is on Israel then I don't know what is. This is why most people hate Israel for no reason. The evil one can't stand having such an obvious proof of the sovereignty of God.



posted on Sep, 8 2007 @ 01:36 AM
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reply to post by pepsi78
 


Israel has probably thought of co-existing, but if Hamas has influence on some of the Palestinian people, the rule is to I believe:



Hamas was created in 1987 by Sheikh Ahmed Yassin of the Gaza wing of the Muslim Brotherhood at the beginning of the First Intifada. Best known in Israel and the West for its suicide bombings and other attacks[5] directed against civilians and Israeli military and security forces targets, Hamas' charter (written in 1988 and still in effect) calls for the destruction of the State of Israel and its replacement with a Palestinian Islamic state in the
area that is now Israel, the West Bank, and the Gaza Strip.
Wiki





In a January 2006 election, Hamas won a majority of seats in the Palestinian legislature.
HAMAS (Islamic Resistance Movement)


All I am saying is that if Israel lets them in, there is a big possibility that there will be a very big terrorist activity.



posted on Sep, 8 2007 @ 05:44 AM
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Originally posted by subz

Sure. I cannot find on-line versions but here are the newspaper articles.


Thats truely amazing. Thanks Subz! After you alerted me to this I did a bit of my own research..

This article goes into depth about the population change.

Already, population statistics have sent shockwaves through Israel’s conservative Likud leadership – to the point that some Jewish leaders who once espoused a “greater Israel” that included the West Bank, are seeking to disengage themselves from the land of their Biblical promise

archive.newsmax.com...



posted on Sep, 8 2007 @ 06:16 AM
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The way I see it, the land should be rightfully Palestinian, but what action that has been done is done, I believe that forcing the Israelis to give back all of the lands now would be unfair, later generations are born in the newly created nation, who have no recollection of their parent's past. What they see, is what they know, and they only know is that Israel is their nation. If the Arab nations were to claim back these lands, they're no better then the Israelis uprooting and relocating the Palestinians back in 1948, and thus cycle of hate/revenge will never end, ultimately prolonging the war.

I believe the only right thing Israel can do is give back some of the recent land they took, and work out some agreement..but thats easier said then done, and probably have failed numerous times..


[edit on 8-9-2007 by skyblueff0]



posted on Sep, 8 2007 @ 09:43 AM
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Fascinating poll, I would have never thought along those lines. I also believe there are some very strong truths from other answers. Israel will exist as long as the USA AND western Europe can fight.

With this being said, a very good argument can be made over why Israel has these problems to begin with. I'm not going back to Biblical times, which a couple of posters need to read to get a true historical sense of why things happen in the region today.

After WW1, many artificial boundaries were made based on who from Europe occupied the territories. Look at a map of the middle east. See the nice straight lines across the deserts. All artificial and based on diplomats from Europe with no thought of who really lives in the areas. Whom helped who during the war really paid off. Iraq is a perfect example of this with the Kurds and different Muslim groups (all of which hate each other) lumped together as one nation called Iraq.

Israel was an after thought at the end of WW2. If politicians had the foresight to include a homeland for Jews when the middle east was divided up, you would not have the problems of today. It's hard to take away land and give it to someone else after you have already been promised it. This is the Palestinian problem that was caused by European diplomats.

In true historical terms, Israel is were Israel belong.

As for Israel in modern times, they have been able to fight wars with just their own manpower. The USA and NATO helped out in 1973 with logistical supplies being flow in, but no manpower was needed. The Arabs surrounding Israel have taken the position of accepting Israel. It's just a couple of rogue states and Islamic murderers who still think Israel can be beaten in war.

Anything nuclear in the middle east is just bad news. This is a tragedy waiting to happen and millions will die for no real winners but many losers.

This is were I can see people saying there would be no long term Israel as the entire middle east is a radioactive graveyard.



posted on Sep, 8 2007 @ 03:57 PM
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All I am saying is that if Israel lets them in, there is a big possibility that there will be a very big terrorist activity.

Not really, things would setle down if the state responsabilities were ran by the 2 sides on equal terms.
Imagine a jewish president and an arabic prime minister or vice versa, or police units, one israelian one palestinan, law and order would have to be comming form isarelis and also from palestinans.
Peace can only be built by buiding briges betwen the 2 sides not by check points and well defined borders, peace will never dominate in that region by this standards simply because all the sides implicated do have rights there.

The only way things would get better is if they learn to live toghether, but I have a feeling this is not going to happen due to out side intrest, due to the people that pull the strings.

I'm not talking about wwII , way back if a bunch o people coexisted there long ago, then they can do it again for sure.
I don't think any one has bad intention against the jewish people , they have bad intentions against the state of israel it's self as a state.

If the largest comunity of jewish people in the middle east is in iran , iran being a top enemy of israel then I think this is not about people at all, it's about states and borders.
Let's face it , some just don't want peace there.






[edit on 8-9-2007 by pepsi78]



posted on Sep, 8 2007 @ 04:08 PM
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reply to post by pepsi78
 


You still fail to see my point, as long as Palestine is under the Hamas influence Israel does not want them in. Would you want a nation side by side with you if they had created such an organization?



posted on Sep, 8 2007 @ 05:13 PM
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You still fail to see my point, as long as Palestine is under the Hamas influence Israel does not want them in. Would you want a nation side by side with you if they had created such an organization?


No, if they would be given rights I think violence would stop.
You speak of such thing, but you forgot that the palestinians were given some land and then conditioned , like the issue with the water pipes, you know you can have your own house but you can't have water, while the houses right near the ones with out pluming (jewish ones) had nice little swiming pools filled with water.
Violence only exist for one reason and one reason only, it;s because the state of israel , you can't as what ever you are, go there and instaurate your own law with your own set of rules and just brush every one aside.


Hey I would get pissed of too if you came and declared that you are king of the hill on the pice of land which my relatives lived long ago along with your relatives, I would say why does he get to make the rules? screw that I'll start a war and fight back with anything I have.

The only reason violece persists in that region is because there is no equality.


Here I'll ask you a question, and answer it please, it's a very simple question.

Why are there only jews in control of israel?
It's a simple question, can you answer that?



posted on Sep, 8 2007 @ 06:11 PM
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the historic kingdom called 'Israel' was not exclusively the Jews...
the ancient 'Israel' was taken into captivity by the Assyrians---
(which led to the current meme known as te 'Lost 10 Tribes"
...which was a long time before the Jews of Judea were carted of to the 'Babylonian' captivity era, (some hundreds of years later)

they(the Jews) had a (southern) kingdom called Judea (or something similar)
so the present day "Israelis" have no heritage claim to the area we know in this era of time as Israel....the ancient 'Israel' was north around Lebanon & the Golan Heights areas.


my guess is that the Zionists back in the late 1800's chose the name of 'Israel' for lot of reasons, but the opportunity to create a 'State'
finally came with the UN in 1948....and they played the sympathy card to the hilt!.....and decided to name the new jewish 'homeland' Israel

and we're still being 'played'



posted on Sep, 8 2007 @ 07:43 PM
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One central question of this conflict is the degree to which Palestinians are willing and able to accept the right of Israel to exist, and are willing to uphold acceptance of this principle. Similarly, another central question is the degree to which Israel feels conditions exist in which it is possible to allow Palestinians to achieve sovereignty.[8][7]

Israel asserts that one major condition of Palestinian sovereignty must be acceptance of mutual co-existence and elimination of terrorism. Some Palestinian groups, notably Fatah, a political party founded by PLO leaders, claim they are willing to foster co-existence if Palestinians are steadily given more political rights and autonomy. However, Hamas, which is currently the majority ruling party in the Palestinian Legislative Council, openly states that it completely opposes Israel's right to exist.[9]
en.wikipedia.org...


So this states Israel and Palestine have negotiated to co-exist, Fatah is willing to co-exist, but HAMAS "openly states that it completely opposes Israel's right to exist." This means they do not want to co-exist side by side but they want Israel gone!
You state there will be no fighting if Palestine had their rights as well, Palestine owned all those areas and here is what happened:




The Oslo peace process was based upon Israel ceding authority to the Palestinians to run their own political and economic affairs. In return, it was agreed that Palestinians would promote peaceful co-existence, renounce violence and promote recognition of Israel among their own people.[36] Despite Yasser Arafat's official renouncement of terrorism and recognition of Israel, many Palestinians today continue to practice and advocate violence against civilians and do not recognize Israel as a legitimate political entity.
Wiki


So please do not tell me Israel does not want to co-exist or any such thing, because it clearly states they want to co-exist but if Palestine is harboring Hamas terrorists then why should Israel let them in to destroy their economy and people?



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