Originally posted by Astyanax
sigh,, I think you missed my point or perhaps I wasn't clear enough. I am apprehensive because I know where this kind of discussion goes.
Back in 1981 I had met two Christians, Bert Mehnert, Rev. Donald Esty and myself started a small mission church in Suncity West AZ. We rented a
lecture hall in the Valley National Bank ( I believe it is Chase now ) We the first year we had about 12 solid members. I was attending South
Western Bible college and living with my folks out there when I met Esty and Mehnert. Esty was Pastor and we were elders and as the Church grew from
twelve to 300 and up, we finally broke ground to build our new Church. I eventually out to Phoenix, changed course and colleges but always kept close
ties with Pastor Esty. As the years went on I had heard my old friend, now Pastor Emeritus, had died. I attended the last memorial in his honor at
the general assembly in Birmingham Al.
I never forgot the many years I attended that church and smile when I see my name at the top of it's charter members
The place sure has changed and most of those I spent my Sunday mornings with were much older then I and have since passed away.
It's kind of ironic that you tell me I need to catch up on my calvinism
hehe It's ironic because you are probably right,, It's been awhile but you don't build the first Covenent
in SunCity West, without knowing John Calvin and his doctrine.
The fact is,, I have read VOLUMES on Calvin.
In here,, It's usually general discussions about GOD or Christians I see in but you getting into the Calvinator lol hehe
Ill also tell you that YOU are wrong.
Of course you are,, which pretty much what I said when you thought I was speaking about Calvin when I was speaking for MOST Christian Americans. If
you care to argue your secular interpretation of the humanists hatchet job on Calvin,, we have got nothing to talk about.
Calvins explantion of predestination is nothing like you think and what you think is a common mistake by those who think they know so much about
Calvinism that they feel quite comfortable suggesting how other calvinists would act, what they would say, even giving well intentioined advice to
others that have undoubtedley have studied his life and work for many many years above and beyond your selective understanding of his teaching. What
I mean by that is, you have what seems to be a predilection to finding the psychotic elements of this which understandably fit in with a secular
lifestyle while offering a somewhat convoluted reason for an excuse to define it in just the way you have.
I would expect nothing less from an atheist, humanist non Christian
It's simple, God has before the foundations of the world, declared those whom he would save via the cross of Christ. This choice is founded
completely on Gods mercy and does not take into consideration the works that man will or will not do. The will of man has no bearings on Gods election
simply because no man wants salvation in the first place unless, of course, the holy Spirit of God enlightens him with this epiphany
Another words the elect are chosen predicated on the basis of God's foreknowledge of the way they will live their lives. So the choice as to
whether a person will be saved or not is no longer in God's will, but it is in that person's choice about God's gift of grace--whether to accept it
or reject it.
The proof of your election is your coming to Christ for salvation
While it is the belief of the Christian that God has ordained all things this way, some will argue that GOD is evil because he willed people to hell.
God isn't setting the destination here either, on the contrary he leaves those to their own just end.
Gods will is one of righteousness while Calvin understood this explaining man's obssesion in trying to scientifically explain the ultimate cause of
all things. That man should resist such endless exercises where there is only more questions then answers only more revision to update errors in old
discoveries once considered truth but now are no longer in light of new data. Calvin asked that we stop seeking what does not exist, but is the best
thing man has come up with. His warning is straight out of the Bible that If we do not resist the temptation to explain all things in existence in
this way we will fail to see what does exist.
part to the objection of predestination I hear so much from those who don't truly understand it is how they use it to describe GOD as a psychopath or
a what Kind of GOD would do this. You have even gone so far as to say I was making a GOD of my own devise. LOL I think thats cute. I also know
where that comes from as much as I know where my description of the GOD of Abraham comes from. making God a tyrant is the idea that God has sentenced
those who never had the chance to offend Gods law.
Calvin doesn't teach this in way shape or form but I sure see many say he does.
Calvin - "Let us…ask them, in turn, what they think God owes to man if he would judge him according to his own nature. All of us are vitiated by
sin, we can only be odious to God…all whom the Lord predestines to death are by condition of nature subject to the judgment of death, of what
injustice towards themselves may they complain"
If you want to find those same arguments here www.reformed.org...
Then perhaps we could entertain the prospects of you selling me on the virtues of atheism (aint gonna happen) or conversely,, my persuading you to
believe in,, um,, how did you say??
Again I just don't see that happening.
So already we are hitting common ground?
"Must be one them thar critical thankers" was my first postulate lol.
No,, Seriously,, I am impressed by your intelligence and I agree with that post where you said science is really about falsifying theories.
The point I was trying to make is simply one of courtesy because the fact is,, you DON'T represent the opinions of MOST Christians and you DO paint
them in a rather ,, well,, lets just say,, one gets the impression we ain't your favorite people.
Just sensitive I guess and asking we keep a modicum of civility when it comes to making sweeping broad generalizations.
Ya know,, Major said something to me in another post about people saying GOD made HIV to punish gays and that it really offended him.
It offends me too,, just in different way. It's the REASONS being different that we could argue, and heh we HAVE. I find if I don't get baited
into a comment or too he makes and he reads this post and ,, I dunno,, says what an idiot etc. As long as I'm not saying ALL Atheists say this or
They aren't here to defend themselves but I am sure he would defend them and I wouldn't blame him.
I do the same thing for my Christian brothers and sisters you claim will tell someone this or that too.
Bottom line is,, YOU HAVE NO IDEA WHAT THEY WOULD SAY OR WHAT YOU THINK MOST WOULD SAY moreover I would bet I have known many more then you have and
even I have not come close to knowing MOST.
let alone knowing what most think or say
Hope that helps in clarifying
[edit on 13-9-2007 by Conspiriology]