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The Multiple Scale Evolution of Self Aware Universe and the Human Species Involvement

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posted on Sep, 5 2007 @ 09:52 PM
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(The train of thought has now begun...)


How can there be nothing, before there is something to have nothing of?

The other option is that God (creator, not specific religion) is infinite to our perception or notion of time. Using the same line of reasoning, if God is the first something to exist then we literally are God, perceiving itself in some manner. I was thinking about numbers and how 0 needed 1 to exist. Then further every other number is a variation of 1. We create higher level systems like adding, multiplying, calc, etc. to explain different combinations of the number 1, an abstract concept of place or mass. It allows us to quantify and share information about various relationships within the world.

So now I'm assuming that God = Universe. What happens when parts of an organism become self aware? What if my organs or cells figured out part of their place in life and viewed themselves as an individual that could make choices, not just do the same routine? What if they are already self aware? Is a star or the Earth self aware in some way? Let's assume first that they are not, and life like ours is the only self aware combinations of atoms in the Universe. What happens when more and more of the atoms, currently part of non-organic/conscious matter, become part of self aware matter? I know that seems crazy due to the overall mass of the universe but I'm thinking gigantic enormous mega picture here.

We think of cosmological objects as these programmed, running physics equations, with no room for choice or will. It would seem that an animal on earth makes more choices or a larger impact on it's relative environment, and it has some form of consciousness. But if the concept of self awareness or consciousness is not tied to specific brain matter are the animals as lifeless as the clockwork stars? Are we? Or are 'they' more like us?

How would a force like evolution act upon the lives of stars and cosmological bodies? Were their previous less efficient versions of stars, matter, or physical law? Was the first black hole in the universe (i know the whole first/time thing is odd but just go with me) an evolution of sorts? Or can you say that the existence a certain size/energy of a star will inevitably lead to a black hole, so that the hole existed as a potential-inevitability at the stars creation? What about a planets process? Are humans a defense mechanism of sorts that will grow and acquire the same desire to protect Earth, yet with the technological means to do so at some point? I know an Earth ending disaster would be enormous, and most events would be more likely to wipe us out but perhaps we are a larger benefit than we perceive. Then we learn to move from planet to planet, like seeds in the wind.

Did the laws of physics or the universe evolve? What if some quantum states simulated or tested various physical models, strength of forces, that type of thing, which eventually lead to the creation and balance of the universe. As soon as a workable 'living', i would assume, self sustaining universe had the potential to be created, through the quantum or non corporeal force, did the universe begin? Like the moment your mind 'magically' remembers the name of the guy you just saw in a tv show. You thought about solving the problem and your subconscious spat an answer back at you.

Perhaps, a conscious God wished to form a physical universe, and His own subconscious gave him the codes/commands/what-have-you to create what we perceive today.

I know I probably contradict where some of my theories ideas go but with this type of stuff I just keep writing and writing. I'd be interested to hear what ideas or concepts had merit or interest. I wrote seven pages of through this line of questioning today but I haven't gone over it yet, this is just what I could remember. I'm sure I'll add more thoughts soon.

[edit on 5-9-2007 by Parabol]




posted on Sep, 5 2007 @ 11:11 PM
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Interesting ideas. However, I think that consciousness arises as a result of some sort of quantum effect, since in newtonian physics nothing is random or indeterminate, however in quantum physics everything is indeterminate to one degree or another. So I think that it would be either extremely rare or impossible for consciousness to arise out of a large scale system since the indeterminate nature of it is so small, but since cells work on a molecular and atomic level, there is a large degree of indetermination in the specific location of the subatomic particles they operate with, which can lead to a random element that allows consciousness to arise.



posted on Sep, 6 2007 @ 08:58 AM
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Originally posted by Parabol
How can there be nothing, before there is something to have nothing of?


Well, something simply cannot arise out of nothing. In the history of human existence, that has never been observed. Not here on earth, not in a mathematical equation, and not anywhere in the universe. So, there never was nothing. Before the big bang, there was still a universe. It simply spanned an area smaller than an atom. It contained pure energy, bound by a unified law that has since split into four (strong force, weak force, electro magnetism and gravity). The seperation of this unified law allowed a reaction to take place, and billions of years later, we get to discuss it via message board.


Originally posted by Parabol
Using the same line of reasoning, if God is the first something to exist then we literally are God, perceiving itself in some manner. I was thinking about numbers and how 0 needed 1 to exist. Then further every other number is a variation of 1. We create higher level systems like adding, multiplying, calc, etc. to explain different combinations of the number 1, an abstract concept of place or mass. It allows us to quantify and share information about various relationships within the world.


Religion contends that God was the first to exist, the only to exist until we were created. Before the big bang, the only thing to exist in this universe was pure energy contained in that tiny mass, smaller than an atom. So, it's logical then to say that God is pure energy, or consciousness. But maybe God can be 0 and 1 at the same time (energy and consciousness). All the variations of 1 are all the different levels of consciousness God experiences through humanity and whatever other life exists.


Originally posted by Parabol
What if my organs or cells figured out part of their place in life and viewed themselves as an individual that could make choices, not just do the same routine? What if they are already self aware?


Everything seems to answer to a higher power. Take the cosmos for example. Earth and the planets in this solar system MUST follow their orbit as dictated by the Sun's mass. The solar system MUST follow their orbit of the milky way center as dictated by the mass there, and so on and so forth. Cells may be aware, but they may have no choice but to act in accordance with the consensus because they could survive no other way.


Originally posted by Parabol
What happens when more and more of the atoms, currently part of non-organic/conscious matter, become part of self aware matter? I know that seems crazy due to the overall mass of the universe but I'm thinking gigantic enormous mega picture here.


Well researchers in zero gravity have found that dust particles in plasma form "spontaneously" organize themselves into double-helix type structures. Right off the bat they are capable of storing information, memory, reproduction... If evolution were allowed to take place in this inorganic matter that mimics our definition of life, then who knows what form it would take if given enough time.


Originally posted by Parabol
How would a force like evolution act upon the lives of stars and cosmological bodies? Were their previous less efficient versions of stars, matter, or physical law? Was the first black hole in the universe (i know the whole first/time thing is odd but just go with me) an evolution of sorts? Or can you say that the existence a certain size/energy of a star will inevitably lead to a black hole, so that the hole existed as a potential-inevitability at the stars creation?


Just look at the evolution of our universe. We've gone from a point of singularity where all of the energy that makes up the universe exists, to star formation, to galaxies and more. In the beginning, things were very basic. Today, things are very complex in the cosmos. That's evolution if i've ever seen it.


Originally posted by Parabol
Perhaps, a conscious God wished to form a physical universe, and His own subconscious gave him the codes/commands/what-have-you to create what we perceive today.


I would say that an unconscious God wished to experience itself, and that's when the reaction took place.



posted on Sep, 6 2007 @ 11:47 AM
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lonemaverick

I agree about the quantum effect and mind. I wrote a lot about that in the original paper that spawned some of these ideas. I see the difference or association between the quantum world and the Newtonian world just as we see it in our minds. My consciousness (quantum) does all it's strange calculations and then that result is transferred or realized in my behavior upon Newtonian reality. Or maybe our consciousness is a bridge between the worlds but not necessarily part, or wholly part, of either. It's just difficult to imagine the quantum effects working their way up through each part of the system like you mentioned. You wonder how large of an effect could it have, I almost wouldn't be surprised either way.

The Cyfre

Part of our disagreement, for lack of a better term, is with the big bang. I don't believe that's how our universe began. I'm still researching that because I was a big bang proponent for awhile. I like Halton Arp's concept of a non expanding plasma universe. I feel that certain inconsistencies with the cosmic background radiation, quasars, and other phenomena need to be assessed more clearly. Part of my train of thought was focused on how does the universe behave if there was no immediate expansion or similar bang. Although I don't think I put a lot of that on here, I'll try to post more of that once I edit it.

You mentioned religion which for the most part I would like to keep out of my thoughts. I think it has too much influence on man's logic in that we have misplaced or tainted our view of a true creator God with man's need for power or stories. Any religious context other than a God who created or is 'in charge of' this universe I choose to dismiss for the purpose of my thoughts.

Edit: When I reference my thoughts I mean when I sit down and do these thought experiments, I try to take all of my personal bias or beliefs out and just continue to ask question after question to see where it takes me.

[edit on 6-9-2007 by Parabol]



posted on Nov, 18 2007 @ 05:04 PM
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Shameless bump, posted this awhile ago but didn't receive much response, might as well toss it back and see what bites



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