What/Who is good/evil

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
i have to disagree with you.

WHAT?! We disagree on something! . It's cool madness, we've know each other long enough to continue to disagree minus the formal politeness.

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
let us postulate for a second that your deity does exist as outlined by the bible...

Hey, I game . Might be a bit of a stretch for me but...

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
i don't think racist, misogynistic, commanders of genocide get to have a say in what's good...

I agree, they shouldn't get a say. I also believe deep down they know the difference.

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
sure they can say "evil? well, that's me!"

Exactly!

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
anyone that's jealous and proud of it.... also, no say.

Sure. What's all this have to do with God?

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
seems like your deity is a bit of a hypocrite,

How so?

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
which is ironic since an aspect of your deity specifically condemned hypocricy.

That He did.

[edit on 12-9-2007 by saint4God]

reply to post by saint4God


all the points i made apply to your god. your god is quite proud of his jealousy, or haven't you heard/read?

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
all the points i made apply to your god.

I knew you believed that & my answers remain unchanged.

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
your god is quite proud of his jealousy, or haven't you heard/read?

Where is it that God is proud of his jealousy?

Does this sound like pride?:

"The LORD saw how great man's wickedness on the earth had become, and that every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil all the time. The LORD was grieved that he had made man on the earth, and his heart was filled with pain. So the LORD said, "I will wipe mankind, whom I have created, from the face of the earth—men and animals, and creatures that move along the ground, and birds of the air—for I am grieved that I have made them." - Genesis 6:5-7

"Never again will I curse the ground because of man, even though every inclination of his heart is evil from childhood. And never again will I destroy all living creatures, as I have done." - Genesis 8:21

I really don't like to discipline my child. But, if my child disobeys, it is what I must do no matter how much it grieves me to do so.

Who is it that is proud?

"then your heart will become proud and you will forget the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery." - Deuteronomy 8:14

"Do not keep talking so proudly or let your mouth speak such arrogance, for the LORD is a God who knows, and by him deeds are weighed." - 1 Samuel 2:3

"Blessed is the man who makes the LORD his trust, who does not look to the proud, to those who turn aside to false gods." - Psalm 40:4

"But he gives us more grace. That is why Scripture says: "God opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble." - James 4:6

"Young men, in the same way be submissive to those who are older. All of you, clothe yourselves with humility toward one another, because, "God opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble." - 1 Peter 5:5

[edit on 12-9-2007 by saint4God]

Originally posted by Isaiah 24:21

And Dragon,

the Lord Jesus Christ is Jehovah God of the Old Testament in the flesh.
The problem with peoples' evil heart is that they want God's love without his justice.
You can't have that. He is equally just and retributive against sin as he is loving toward us.
The only reason you don't feel his wrath now is because when he bore the sins of mankind in his body on the cross, he bought mankind some reprieve. This is the time to repent and believe on the Son of God.
Otherwise there's going to be hellfire to pay. And soon.

This is your view, or your beliefs, it doesn't make it Fact by any stretch of the imagination.

As for the Canaanite's your judging them based on a Jewish religion, as you have already said they were not Jewish but many different cultures and ethnicity's. The things you accuse them of is bad IMHO, but at least Islam gives them the chance to convert before they butcher them. Also as posted in another thread you have condemned them based on the Bible, based on your religious beliefs in this Bible even though you admit the Bible is just a history book.

So fighting evil with evil = good



So we have free will to choose unless we all choose not to believe then we must all die.

Dragon,

in case you didn't notice, the "them" you're referring to are my own people.

So you think adultery, incest, bestiality and sacrificing babies is wrong according to "Jewish religion" only eyh?...

And that from a person who's got kids...

Goes to show you how far a man will go to prove his own righteousness against God's.

it doesnt matter what is good and what is evil, because you ultimately get back what you put out. If I know that I get back what I put out, then I know that full justice occurs all the time and I neednt judge or punish anyone and will think twice about what I put out. thats how simple and efficient life, the universe and everything is.

Originally posted by Isaiah 24:21
Dragon,

in case you didn't notice, the "them" you're referring to are my own people.

So you think adultery, incest, bestiality and sacrificing babies is wrong according to "Jewish religion" only eyh?...

And that from a person who's got kids...

Goes to show you how far a man will go to prove his own righteousness against God's.

Originally posted by LDragonFire:
As for the Canaanite's your judging them based on a Jewish religion, as you have already said they were not Jewish but many different cultures and ethnicity's. The things you accuse them of is bad IMHO, but at least Islam gives them the chance to convert before they butcher them. Also as posted in another thread you have condemned them based on the Bible, based on your religious beliefs in this Bible even though you admit the Bible is just a history book.

What part of this sentence did you not understand?

Again does fighting Evil vs Evil = Good? In your opinion they were beyond redemption??? So they should have all died. Also dehumanizing other humans has been going on, uh well since the Bible to justify murder/war.

Again This is your view, or your beliefs, it doesn't make it Fact by any stretch of the imagination.

Did God kill the Jews when they turned there back on him and stated worshiping idols? Why not?.. a sin is a sin ???

[edit on 13-9-2007 by LDragonFire]

Did God kill the Jews when they turned there back on him and stated worshiping idols? Why not?.. a sin is a sin ???

Two things are obvious here:

1) you never read the Bilbe given that the bulk of the Old Testament deals precisely with this issue.

That makes for dishonest agnosticism, sir.

2) you skimmed through my initial post since I had written the following:

If you had read the Bible, you'd also realize that God warned the Jews they'd suffer hell on earth if they adopted the pagan gods of my ancestors and their practices. Sure enough they did, and sure enough, on the ball with Bible prophecy, they suffered these things.
The God of the Bible, unlike other gods of other religions, is no respecter of persons.

As for your argument that evil+evil=evil, as you're applying it, it is sophomoric, if not pueril.

Punishing evil is not evil.

Limiting freedom is inherently evil.
Is therefore the imprisonment of a child molestor to be considered evil?

Methinks your desire for self-justification is over-riding your objectivity.

reply to post by saint4God

Exodus 20:5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

Exodus 34:14 For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God:

god seems to be quite proud of his jealous, wouldn't you say?

reply to post by Isaiah 24:21



So the Jews were at least warned that there sin would result in hell on Earth. The Canaanite's were just exterminated outright without a warning.

In your opinion the Canaanite's were beyond redemption??? So they should have all been Exterminated because god told them so.

Is adultery a reason for someone to die according to your beliefs??

Evil [God ordering one group of people to exterminate another because they sin] + Evil [the group of sinners] = Good [as in God is Good]

You seem rather confident that you have all the answers, I'm not that confident.

I was not trying to debate whether the listed sins were evil or not...they are, I was generalizing Sin.

God ordered the extermination of a group of people because of there sin....I'm not justifying there sin, I just wonder why this group of people had to be killed for it, when others in the bible sin but are giving the option to redeem themselves.

1) you never read the Bilbe given that the bulk of the Old Testament deals precisely with this issue.

That makes for dishonest agnosticism, sir.

Why because I question your self-righteous zealotry, your unquestioning nature, because I don't believe everything I'm told.

Im here asking questions you think you might get around to Answering them other than calling me dishonest??? You Judgmental ............

Methinks your blind faith is over-riding your objectivity, and reason.













[edit on 14-9-2007 by LDragonFire]

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
god seems to be quite proud of his jealous, wouldn't you say?

Nope. Where's the proud part again? I already quoted the portions of sadness and pain in Him having to enact the punishments.

[edit on 14-9-2007 by saint4God]

reply to post by saint4God


saint, we aren't going to get anywhere on this discussion. we'll have a fair amount of cannon fodder arguments on either side.. but the fact is that the bible is fairly inconsistent on the nature of god... especially after the whole having a kid thing. that really seems to mellow god out... until the end of the world.

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul

saint, we aren't going to get anywhere on this discussion.

you mean get anywhere where you`d like them to go?
I have been following your posts recently with amusement and wonder: Have you EVER achieved in turning someone off religion?

Just like they will probably NEVER convert you to their viewpoint, you will never convert them.

Has anybody stepped up to you and said: "Gee...thanks for enlightening me on what nonsense I have been believing the last years. I am going to burn my bible. Thanks so much"?

Good or Evil

A curse on him who is lax in doing the LORD's work!
A curse on him who keeps his sword from bloodshed!
Jeremiah 48:10

12 They entered into a covenant to seek the LORD, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul. 13 All who would not seek the LORD, the God of Israel, were to be put to death, whether small or great, man or woman.
2 Chronicles 15:12-13

33For God is not a God of disorder but of peace.
As in all the congregations of the saints, 34women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says. 35If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.
1 corinthians 14:33-35

18Slaves, submit yourselves to your masters with all respect, not only to those who are good and considerate, but also to those who are harsh.
1 peter 2:18

21 Prepare a place to slaughter his sons
for the sins of their forefathers;
they are not to rise to inherit the land
and cover the earth with their cities.
isaiah 14:21

11 If two men are fighting and the wife of one of them comes to rescue her husband from his assailant, and she reaches out and seizes him by his private parts, 12 you shall cut off her hand. Show her no pity.
deuteronomy 25:11-12

Originally posted by Skyfloating
you mean get anywhere where you`d like them to go?
I have been following your posts recently with amusement and wonder: Have you EVER achieved in turning someone off religion?

Just like they will probably NEVER convert you to their viewpoint, you will never convert them.

i'm not really here to convert anyone. i don't really care if someone believes in a deity or not... i just tend to have a problem with how some people worship a "little god" as carl sagan put it. instead of realizing their constrained views and abandoning them they embrace them without knowing such.

saint is someone i actually respect... one of the few people i can have a discussion that leads places with. the place i want discussions to lead isn't conversion, but further conversation on complexities. this one would simply become a cannon-fodder fight.

Has anybody stepped up to you and said: "Gee...thanks for enlightening me on what nonsense I have been believing the last years. I am going to burn my bible. Thanks so much"?

you know... i actually wouldn't like people to burn their bibles. if viewed as literature and myth it's an ok book. no reason to burn it.

but aside from that.. yes. my father did.

reply to post by mrmonsoon

Regardless of a belief in a traditional god figure, such as the Judeo-Christian god, good and evil are not relative to culture but absolute

Whenever anyone abuses innocents in some way, it constitutes EVIL.

We develop inner discernment ability from our striving to live by The Golden Rule, a form of which is found in most religions.

People who have corrupted or destroyed their "god spark" from abusing one or more innocents, lose their ability to make accurate moral judgments.

For example, rapists and murderers have a very difficult time determining what constitutes good and what constitutes evil.

Conversely, those who pursue lives of selflessness and spiritual principle, find it much easier to discern between what is good and what is evil.

Near Death Experience research and Past Life Regression research do not indicate that all truth and morality are relative. Quite the opposite. We are held accountable for all our actions and even our intentions. If one is born into a culture that practices a form of perversion, then the soul is responsible for partaking in that - because the soul chose to incarnate into that culture in the first place

The choices we make in life matters deeply.

Life is a golden opportunity to live a spiritual life in a world of darkness.

Life is very important because how we have lived our life largely determines how far we can go into the light.

Near Death Experience Research Conclusions

When we leave our bodies, we not only get to see how our actions affected other people, but we also get to feel how they felt. YIKES

So if are in A-HOLE in life, you get to feel how others were affected by you. Not at all a pleasant prospect. If you reject the lessons of the life review and do not strive to counterbalance karmic debts, then you will never be able to ascend beyond hellish dimensions and, through your own retrogression away from The Light, will be forced to reside with other twisted souls who, like you, are also SPIRITUALLY RETARDED.

All that happened long before any prophet walked on this planet, and it continues to occur constantly.

No God judges us. We judge ourselves and we are judged by the nonliving and infinite Light that many NDE-ers report seeing "at the end of the tunnel."

So if one believes in a God or not is actually irrelevant. The Light is indifferent to religions, groups, theology, and persons. All it cares about is our CHARACTER, our SELFLESSNESS, and our MORALITY.

These things dictate how far we can go into The Light after death.

How far we can go into The Light determines how much long-term contentment in the Power of God we will experience.



[edit on 15-9-2007 by Paul_Richard]

Dragon,

your mind is already made up. That much is clear. I could point to an umptieth assumption of yours (like the thought that God never gave the Canaanites space to repent) but it would be useless.

You're no agnostic that's for sure. You have a bent on attacking and ridiculing the God of the Bible. You just like to give those attacks more credibility by claiming you're an agnostic. That much is clear too.

I have constantly given you Bible answers, never mine own.
You think if it was up to me I'd write a book like the Bible (if I could)?
Not in a million years man. But that's why I believe it so much:
It rubs self-righteous sinners like you the wrong way.
It rubs me too, because I have the same nature as you. I just turn the other way when it rubs me against the grain.

Don't worry, if you do not repent and believe on the Son of God, you will one day show up before the Great White Throne for judgment, and you will get to air out all your indignation right to the face of the Lord of Glory.

Originally posted by Isaiah 24:21
Dragon,

your mind is already made up. That much is clear. I could point to an umptieth assumption of yours (like the thought that God never gave the Canaanites space to repent) but it would be useless.

And you have provided information where God allowed them the opportunity to repent.

You're no agnostic that's for sure. You have a bent on attacking and ridiculing the God of the Bible. You just like to give those attacks more credibility by claiming you're an agnostic. That much is clear too.

I'm very much agnostic, thanks anyway. If my questions seem harsh to you, this is your problem.

I have constantly given you Bible answers, never mine own.
You think if it was up to me I'd write a book like the Bible (if I could)?
Not in a million years man. But that's why I believe it so much:
It rubs self-righteous sinners like you the wrong way.
It rubs me too, because I have the same nature as you. I just turn the other way when it rubs me against the grain.

Your answers and the answers in the bible frankly are not good enough for me. And you sell yourself short, you could Easily write one of the books of the bible. When it rubs you against the grain what do you do? Do you study and pray, and surround yourself with other believer? Do you let the questions in you heart go unasked?

Don't worry, if you do not repent and believe on the Son of God, you will one day show up before the Great White Throne for judgment, and you will get to air out all your indignation right to the face of the Lord of Glory.

According to your beliefs, this statement is fact. Is this why you believe based on the fear of this judgment? or based on the love thats spread all over his alleged book?

reply to post by mrmonsoon


Conpet of good and evil is just sooo last decade. Nowadays, everything can be negotiated, just talk to Nancy Pelosi, she managed to charm Syria out of destroying Israel. I'm sure next she will visit Crapsama bin Laden to give him a hearthy hug and talk him out of the harsh remarks and I'm sure it's all just a misunderstanding.

Let's destroy all jails and dissolve police enforcement too. Spend our entire military budget to train negotiators and appeasers. The world will be a better place...

"It was because your hearts were hard that Moses wrote you this law," Jesus replied." - Mark 10:5

I always find it interesting that when someone needs "God fodder" they reach into the old law. Let me ask you this. If the Old Testament was the best way to do things, would we have needed a Christ to come along and show us the right way? If we were sinless, for what purpose would Jesus have to come here and die to pay the debt?

"But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code." - Romans 7:6

[edit on 16-9-2007 by saint4God]