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Mans Science Vs. Nature Wisdom, or something much more deep ?

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posted on Sep, 3 2007 @ 08:52 PM
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Let me explain the problem science has with religion." The atheist professor of philosophy pauses before his class and then asks one of his new students to stand.

"You're a Christian, aren't you, son?"

"Yes sir," the student says.

"So you believe in God?"

"Absolutely."

"Is God good?"

"Sure! God's good."

"Is God all-powerful? Can God do anything?"

"Yes."

"Are you good or evil?"

"The Bible says I'm evil."

The professor grins knowingly. "Aha! The Bible!" He considers for a moment. "Here's one for you. Let's say there's a sick person over here and you can cure him. You can do it. Would you help him? Would you try?"

"Yes sir, I would."

"So you're good...!"

"I wouldn't say that."

"But why not say that? You'd help a sick and maimed person if you could. Most of us would if we could. But God doesn't."

The student does not answer, so the professor continues. "He doesn't, does he? My brother was a Christian who died of cancer, even though he prayed to Jesus to heal him. How is this Jesus good? Hmmm? Can you answer that one?"

The student remains silent.

"No, you can't, can you?" the professor says. He takes a sip of water from a glass on his desk to give the student time to relax.

"Let's start again, young fella. Is God good?"

"Er...yes," the student says.

"Is Satan good?"

The student doesn't hesitate on this one. "No."

"Then where does Satan come from?"

The student falters. "From God"

"That's right. God made Satan, didn't he? Tell me, son. Is there evil in this world?"

"Yes, sir."

"Evil's everywhere, isn't it? And God did make everything, correct?"

"Yes."

"So who created evil?" The professor continued, "If God created everything, then God created evil, since evil exists, and according to the principle that our works define who we are, then God is evil."

Again, the student has no answer. "Is there sickness? Immorality? Hatred? Ugliness? All these terrible things, do they exist in this world?"

The student squirms on his feet. "Yes."

"So who created them?"

The student does not answer again, so the professor repeats his question. "Who created them?" There is still no answer. Suddenly the lecturer breaks away to pace in front of the classroom. The class is mesmerized. "Tell me," he continues onto another student. "Do you believe in Jesus Christ, son?"

The student's voice betrays him and cracks. "Yes, professor, I do."

The old man stops pacing. "Science says you have five senses you use to identify and observe the world around you. Have you ever seen Jesus?"

"No sir. I've never seen Him."

"Then tell us if you've ever heard your Jesus?"

"No, sir, I have not."

"Have you ever felt your Jesus, tasted your Jesus or smelt your Jesus? Have you ever had any sensory perception of Jesus Christ, or God for that matter?"

"No, sir, I'm afraid I haven't."

"Yet you still believe in him?"

"Yes."

"According to the rules of empirical, testable, demonstrable protocol, science says your God doesn't exist. What do you say to that, son?"

"Nothing," the student replies. "I only have my faith."

"Yes, faith," the professor repeats. "And that is the problem science has with God. There is no evidence, only faith."

The student stands quietly for a moment, before asking a question of His own. "Professor, is there such thing as heat?"

"Yes," the professor replies. "There's heat."

"And is there such a thing as cold?"

"Yes, son, there's cold too."

"No sir, there isn't."

The professor turns to face the student, obviously interested. The room suddenly becomes very quiet. The student begins to explain. "You can have lots of heat, even more heat, super-heat, mega-heat, unlimited heat, white heat, a little heat or no heat, but we don't have anything called 'cold'. We can hit up to 458 degrees below zero, which is no heat, but we can't go any further after that. There is no such thing as cold; otherwise we would be able to go colder than the lowest -458 degrees."

"Every body or object is susceptible to study when it has or transmits energy, and heat is what makes a body or matter have or transmit energy. Absolute zero (-458 F) is the total absence of heat. You see, sir, cold is only a word we use to describe the absence of heat. We cannot measure cold. Heat we can measure in thermal units because heat is energy. Cold is not the opposite of heat, sir, just the absence of it."

Silence across the room. A pen drops somewhere in the classroom, sounding like a hammer.

"What about darkness, professor. Is there such a thing as darkness?"

"Yes," the professor replies without hesitation. "What is night if it isn't darkness?"

"You're wrong again, sir. Darkness is not something; it is the absence of something. You can have low light, normal light, bright light, flashing light, but if you have no light constantly you have nothing and it's called darkness, isn't it? That's the meaning we use to define the word."

"In reality, darkness isn't. If it were, you would be able to make darkness darker, wouldn't you?"

The professor begins to smile at the student in front of him. This will be a good semester. "So what point are you making, young man?"

"Yes, professor. My point is, your philosophical premise is flawed to start with, and so your conclusion must also be flawed."

The professor's face cannot hide his surprise this time. "Flawed? Can you explain how?"

"You are working on the premise of duality," the student explains. "You argue that there is life and then there's death; a good God and a bad God. You are viewing the concept of God as something finite, something we can measure. Sir, science can't even explain a thought."

"It uses electricity and magnetism, but has never seen, much less fully understood either one. To view death as the opposite of life is to be ignorant of the fact that death cannot exist as a substantive thing. Death is not the opposite of life, just the absence of it."

"Now tell me, professor. Do you teach your students that they evolved from a monkey?"

"If you are referring to the natural evolutionary process, young man, yes, of course I do."

"Have you ever observed evolution with your own eyes, sir?"

The professor begins to shake his ., still smiling, as he realizes where the argument is going. A very good semester, indeed.

"Since no one has ever observed the process of evolution at work and cannot even prove that this process is an on-going endeavor, are you not teaching your opinion, sir? Are you now not a scientist, but a preacher?"

The class is in uproar. The student remains silent until the commotion has subsided.

"To continue the point you were making earlier to the other student, let me give you an example of what I mean."

The student looks around the room. "Is there anyone in the class who has ever seen the professor's brain?" The class breaks out into laughter.

"Is there anyone here who has ever heard the professor's brain, felt the professor's brain, touched or smelt the professor's brain? No one appears to have done so. So, according to the established rules of empirical, stable, demonstrable protocol, science says that you have no brain, with all due respect, sir."

"So if science says you have no brain, how can we trust your lectures, sir?"

Now the room is silent. The professor just stares at the student, his face unreadable.

Finally, after what seems an eternity, the old man answers. "I guess you'll have to take them on faith."

"Now, you accept that there is faith, and, in fact, faith exists with life," the student continues. "Now, sir, is there such a thing as evil?"

Now uncertain, the professor responds, "Of course, there is. We see it everyday. It is in the daily example of man's inhumanity to man. It is in the multitude of crime and violence everywhere in the world. These manifestations are nothing else but evil."

To this the student replied, "Evil do




posted on Sep, 3 2007 @ 08:52 PM
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To this the student replied, "Evil does not exist sir, or at least it does not exist unto itself. Evil is simply the absence of God. It is just like darkness and cold, a word that man has created to describe the absence of God. God did not create evil. Evil is the result of what happens when man does not have God's love present in his heart. It's like the cold that comes when there is no heat or the darkness that comes when there is no light."

The professor sat down.

This students statements are true, can you or can you not make night darker?

Is it possible for it to get colder after absolute zero -458 degree's F.

Can you feel,taste,see,hear,or smell your brain,

If you support this students statements than repost.

God in heaven won't mind if you do or don't.

No you won't go to hell



posted on Sep, 3 2007 @ 10:12 PM
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Good post. I don't know if you wrote the entire thing or not, but it presents a lot of fundamental arguments between science and religion in a very readable way.

It also seems to touch on the whole problem with quantum science these days, the fact that we can't confirm that anything exists if we aren't observing it.

I think the notion of good and evil is a human concept. If there were no humans on earth, do you think the animals and plants would have any concept of good or bad? Nature simply exists as it is so therefore there can be no good or evil. Humans must simply awaken to this reality, for humans are ultimately part of nature. And when I say nature I essentially mean God.



posted on Sep, 3 2007 @ 10:45 PM
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posted on Sep, 3 2007 @ 10:50 PM
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This reminds me of an email I got. I have a friend who loves those inspirational stories like the one above. She absolutely adores them. I tolerate them very patiently and read them but never, I mean NEVER, forward them to everyone like she asks at the bottom of them.

This is one of those emails, right? Is there a huge story book from which people gather these inspirational tales?

You have just taken the "Forward to everyone in your list" thing a step farther! Good one mate!

And again, I say, I love these emails and tolerate them and read them with delight knowing that my friend has sent me this with only my best interest (salvation) at heart. So thank you.



posted on Sep, 3 2007 @ 11:15 PM
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These logic loops have been around for a long time, and most people who use them use their own idea what is good, evil, all knowing, freewill etc. to loop it as the professor did.

I would need to ask the professor if dying was good, evil or neither. The act of dying is neither, but the actions that caused you to die could be good, evil or once again neither.

Also I do not think the bible suggests we are all are born evil, but our actions through life will determine what we are, and for man to have freewill there needs to be good and evil so man can choose. I would also suggest that not everything we view as evil is evil. Take sickness, or dying by an accident and millions of other ways are not inherently evil or good.

I would also suggest that any scientist that is trying to discover something new starts with faith first otherwise they would never try in the first place.



posted on Sep, 4 2007 @ 12:51 AM
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Originally posted by Deus_Brandon
Evil is simply the absence of God. It is just like darkness and cold, a word that man has created to describe the absence of God. God did not create evil. Evil is the result of what happens when man does not have God's love present in his heart. It's like the cold that comes when there is no heat or the darkness that comes when there is no light


Wrong...
It is you guys that sad god created everything. If god did exist and there was a absence of god, how do you know that doesn't bring upon happyness? The fact is, if god existed he had to put it there, create evil. You say the absence of god is evil, but it could be anything, so god did create evil...



posted on Sep, 4 2007 @ 07:36 AM
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Great thread!!
It is wrong for science professors to turn things like that around on religious kids, it is not right to start teaching religion in science class, nor is it right to start teaching science at churches.



[edit on 4-9-2007 by Equinox99]



posted on Sep, 4 2007 @ 09:00 AM
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HaHaHa .... This is the people hat honestly do not know how to think for themseleves they are so indulged into other media outlets that true basic common sense has lost it's meaning for them.



Originally posted by uplander
This reminds me of an email I got. I have a friend who loves those inspirational stories like the one above. She absolutely adores them. I tolerate them very patiently and read them but never, I mean NEVER, forward them to everyone like she asks at the bottom of them.

This is one of those emails, right? Is there a huge story book from which people gather these inspirational tales?

You have just taken the "Forward to everyone in your list" thing a step farther! Good one mate!

And again, I say, I love these emails and tolerate them and read them with delight knowing that my friend has sent me this with only my best interest (salvation) at heart. So thank you.



posted on Sep, 4 2007 @ 09:05 AM
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I think the Faith you are talking about is getting you confused ... It sounds to me more like an Hypothesis whereas faith is something that I know ... No matter what science tells me.

Romans 3 something .... For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of god. ... I think earth is somewhere short of god.



Originally posted by Xtrozero
These logic loops have been around for a long time, and most people who use them use their own idea what is good, evil, all knowing, freewill etc. to loop it as the professor did.

I would need to ask the professor if dying was good, evil or neither. The act of dying is neither, but the actions that caused you to die could be good, evil or once again neither.

Also I do not think the bible suggests we are all are born evil, but our actions through life will determine what we are, and for man to have freewill there needs to be good and evil so man can choose. I would also suggest that not everything we view as evil is evil. Take sickness, or dying by an accident and millions of other ways are not inherently evil or good.

I would also suggest that any scientist that is trying to discover something new starts with faith first otherwise they would never try in the first place.



posted on Sep, 4 2007 @ 09:09 AM
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God did create evil ... Although he did not create it intentionally .. He let it come to nature as he knew humans so called "FREE-WILL" would always lead to death and destruction .... Just look around ..


Originally posted by AncientVoid

Originally posted by Deus_Brandon
Evil is simply the absence of God. It is just like darkness and cold, a word that man has created to describe the absence of God. God did not create evil. Evil is the result of what happens when man does not have God's love present in his heart. It's like the cold that comes when there is no heat or the darkness that comes when there is no light


Wrong...
It is you guys that sad god created everything. If god did exist and there was a absence of god, how do you know that doesn't bring upon happyness? The fact is, if god existed he had to put it there, create evil. You say the absence of god is evil, but it could be anything, so god did create evil...



posted on Sep, 4 2007 @ 10:37 AM
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reply to post by Deus_Brandon
 

Your 'story' relies on flawed logic. We know that evolution is fact (its just the mechanism that is debated), it can be observed all the time through mutations, heredity etc. Speciation however takes longer than is humanly observable.

"Evil does not exist sir, or at least it does not exist unto itself. Evil is simply the absence of God.
I thought God was omnipresent so why would he be absent? - unless he's not omnipresent or doesn't exist.


G



posted on Sep, 4 2007 @ 12:33 PM
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Originally posted by shihulud

Your 'story' relies on flawed logic. G


Very flawed logic indeed.

We've never seen your brain, therefore science says you have no brain. Errm, OK. If you say-so.

I could open up the professor's brain and validate the claim. Maybe we'll wait till after death or until he requires his skull to be opened up. Alternatively, we could just stick him in the various neuroimagers, place some EEG electrodes and compare the response to someone we know has a brain. Further, we know the various behaviours associated with people who have a working functional brain, and those that don't. Sheesh, we can predict the behaviours of those with damage to very specific regions of the brain.

So, faith? Not in the way you want it to be. You seem to be equivocating between faith as in a belief without any evidential basis, and a claim that relies on the reliability of evidence. We have evidence that brain's are inside the skull of normal functional humans, we have evidence of evolution. So, we can be quite sure that a functional and lucid professor has a brain, that bacteria will undergo evolution.



posted on Sep, 4 2007 @ 01:13 PM
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VERY WELL PUT !!! I Don't think you could put it any better !!!!


Originally posted by Equinox99
Great thread!!
It is wrong for science professors to turn things like that around on religious kids, it is not right to start teaching religion in science class, nor is it right to start teaching science at churches.



[edit on 4-9-2007 by Equinox99]



posted on Sep, 4 2007 @ 01:30 PM
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The post was great and I really really appreciate the story!

I learned some things from the story and I'm grateful for it.

It really hit home with me. This is what I got from it: (and it's probably not the intention of the story but I thought I'd add some of my thoughts)

What you make of God and what you make of your brain... or your hand or anything. It's all the same process. You are attaching a belief to an object or idea (a noun, lol). Even though your hand is obviously there, there is always some measure of doubt with anything. So Faith, even if it's .0001% faith, is always present in any thought (thought equation)! And that's not giving faith enough credit, but I just wanted to make the point and see.



posted on Sep, 6 2007 @ 01:07 AM
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Some of the best circular logic out there, so I have been drinking beer with the absence of heat all this time. Maybe they should put that up instead of "cold beer" and I would not get such a kick out of the church goers dodging each other at the liquor store.

Very well put indeed, but let me ask you this is it an amputee or an absence of arm? I know this has been asked on the web many times but I have never got an answer that was acceptable to me, and apparently a lot of other people out there. Well, lets break this down...

Do you believe in god, question 1. The student clearly stated that he did but in the same token which one? There are a lot of gods out there some have came and went but if thats what he believes then let it be so long as he does not frown upon people that believe in cows being their almighty, a guy who found enlightenment under a fig tree, elephants, whatever they have equal proof as his god. Everyone has that right and I wish not to infringe.

Is god good question 2, I seem to think that this was phrased in reference to the Christian god. If that is a unreasonable assumption let me know. Well, I have read a good many versions of the bible and I feel it perfectly reasonable to question that. I was raised very religiously and through the years of my life have read a lot of different bibles. I still have the first one my mother gave me and still read it now with different eyes. My mother and I have discussions much like the ones on this forum with her and she feels no malicious intent from me nor do I from her. But she does even as a Christian relate to a good deal of my arguments about how good god is. Her response is that we can't comprehend god... coming from my mother I leave it at that due to my love for her. Sometimes I just back off because there are some things that you can say as a person without faith that immediately makes people of faith very angry, even if they are direct quotes from the bible. I could carry on in this department but don't feel it necessary in this aspect. The bible can be contradicting at best sometimes, just like people can write them off as not understanding what the "true" meaning is. I find it funny how the "true" meaning changes with the argument.

Are you good or evil question 3? Well, I guess that depends on your judgment. Are there people that believe they are good because they follow guideline put forth in a book, sure. Are there people that believe they are good because they hijack airplanes and kill infidels? sure (in their mind). Because I don't subscribe to any book and do the best I can (making mistakes and learning from them every day) make me devoid of morals? I don't think so, and more over if there is a omnipotent being that I stand before and have to explain the situation, being omnipotent it would understand my lack of belief... unless it was jealous.

So back to a part of question 3 I would help a man when god would not??? I can not say that god would not but I can say that if man created a microchip that could be used to operate a bionic arm, and made that bionic arm to help a man/woman that was in need.... the obvious answer from the religious side would be god knew that scientist since he was in the womb... but will still go to hell because he did not believe. So this omnipotent being that has not presented itself in our lifetime made this scientist who might well have been an atheist do what he did. Because I can't prove your god exists I can't say this statement is wrong. Or even better the other %67 of my faith have it wrong and god was in his heart and he did not know it. This is the equivalent to playing twenty questions and answering "I don't know" to every one the answer must be god. If you answer I don't know to every question the answer could be anything! If you want to give it a spin 20 questions I tried to do Jesus and it came up with dick clark..... go figure. Apparently Jesus is not easy to figure out.

The 4th question, is satan good? That one is a doosey! I don't know satan any better than god but if god made satan then I guess satan must be good as well??? I mean god is so all knowing and great he surely had a plan with the devil. I won't go into the story of Job but if an great being did that, how great could he be? I don't personally subscribe to satan as I think man does a better job than he ever could. (this is the part where religious folks jump in and talk about how satan has a hold of some men) prove his existence as you would gods.

This argument goes on to talk about how the "professors argument is "flawed" O.K. I am sure it could be flawed but as far as tangible evidence goes I can say a comet is not a comet but the absence of a human race. (which by the way I think would fix a lot of long term problems, I'm not asking for a big one just one that kills off 2/3 of the human race, perhaps comets and asteroids are the only thing that keep us around.) We love to fight and kill so much I think we could really go for a "smaller one" just enough to put us in check. When, not if it does come I am sure that all the preying in the world will make a difference, pray that comet out of trajectory! When scientist figure out a way to avoid it, it will be gods will even if the vast majority of the scientist are atheist and going to hell for saving the world.

Moreover if an atheist scientist creates life is all the life he created obligated to follow his desires, will he be as jealous as the omnipotent one so many humans follow. Give it time, I know religious folks don't want man to "play god" but what happens when he does it? Is he a god or just playing because god knew him from the womb and wanted him to do it?

I would also like to point out the track record of snopes.com on religious myths here they must have a staff chock full of athiests. Do I think they are %100 accurate no, but they seem to do a fair job of sorting out the B.S. And most importantly.. why won't god heal amputees, a popular atheist web site I know but a meaningful question. I guess it could be because his followers won't let it happen, and if it does it was gods will. There is a bunch of stuff written off as gods will you know. BTW if you answer every question "unknown" in old testament 20Q guess what you get? unknown imagine that! But not impossible.





posted on Sep, 6 2007 @ 05:29 AM
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The brain can be proven there and then, if the professor was willing to go for brain surgery to verify it for himself or others.

The absence of God is evil? Poor Dinosaurs, maybe thats why they got wiped out and their existenced removed from the holy teachings of God.

Does that mean that all the other living organisms on this planet and others are evil if they don't have faith? I don't see plants, animals, bacteria, virsues worshipping a deity or anything.

________________________________________

Ever seen the video clip where someone tried to preach a religion to a bear in enclosure in a zoo and got mauled by it?

Most people I know just thought that the bear was hungry, in a bad mood or just irritated by that person for disturbing his rest or space.

And one here sees the bear as being evil??



posted on Sep, 8 2007 @ 08:59 AM
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The God, is a jealous god. For centuries, millenia even ... Rulers, kings, prophets(false); have all trying to twist aroudn the situation of god. I can't imagine what the slave trade and some of the allegiances in the early 1700's did to religion ... You know if you are going to war with someone most of the time ... YOu want there to be differences between you and them .. What if in the beg. there was really not that many differences untill we started making them ....

If you were the one true god ... *WHICH YOU CAN'T POSSIBLY FATHOM .... with your human made mind. Yet, I am still going to ask the question what if .... could you possibly see letting other idols and false god be wroshipped ?? What if you had already promised the people that you had made the whole earth for forget that .. the whole universe for ... that you would give them "FREEWILL" ... doesn't that entail them to worship whatever they wanted to worship ... //???

How hurt would you be as that god ... I guess not that hurt just realize that some of your creation that you haev decided to give freewill to .. just don't understand what Life is all about ... Now they think it is about how cool you look ... Or your appearances instead of what is on the inside ... If that is not shown in our everyday societies then you are blind ...



posted on Sep, 8 2007 @ 10:52 AM
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The little sermon has a few problems with it -- the first being that it's a rewrite of a Jack Chick tract called "Big Daddy." Chick has rewritten it recently to include gluons, but the first version of this was pretty much the same little sermonette that you posted and it's been around since the 1960's. Chick is not known for his stunning insights on religion, faith, or his understanding of scientists, teachers, and teenagers (among others).

Not only that, but his publications are full of errors.



Originally posted by Deus_Brandon
"So who created evil?" The professor continued, "If God created everything, then God created evil, since evil exists, and according to the principle that our works define who we are, then God is evil."

Now even an ol' soccer mom like me can do a little googling and find out that there are verses where God says he created evil (Isaiah 45:7, Amos 3:6, Lamentations 3:38). Chick-oid thinking isn't going to talk about real stuff, though.

Reposting stuff from Chick means you get a lot of lies like this:

"Now tell me, professor. Do you teach your students that they evolved from a monkey?"

"If you are referring to the natural evolutionary process, young man, yes, of course I do."

"Have you ever observed evolution with your own eyes, sir?"


NO professor of biology has EVER taught "humans evolved from monkeys", because we didn't. And yes, we've observed evolution -- you have, too in the recent rise in pennicillin resistant microbes in hospitals.

The conspiracy here is "how far will Chick and his followers go to keep people stupid?" For them, curiosity and exploration are an evil because it threatens God somehow. If the answer isn't in the Bible then you shouldn't go poking for it -- and by his logic, since the Bible doesn't tell you how to set a broken bone or operate then you should quit having doctors treat you and just pray over things.

That doesn't work.

But Chick Tractoid Thinking (CTT) wants you to not question it and to be scared away from learning anything about the world that isn't in the Bible. It doesn't offer a middle ground; it holds up a cartoonized Scary Version of reality and invites you back to a nice safe Biblical Thinking (don't question; just pray.)

So to answer your question, this isn't "Mans Science Vs. Nature Wisdom, or something much more deep ?" It's a shallow cheap shot by someone (Chick, originally) whose faith gets tested by these questions and who isn't willing to look at anything but stereotypes. I saw in my googling that this tract and others are now being used by Moslems to convert people to Islam.



posted on Sep, 8 2007 @ 10:57 AM
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Originally posted by ixiy
The absence of God is evil? Poor Dinosaurs, maybe thats why they got wiped out and their existenced removed from the holy teachings of God.

Have you seen the latest Jack Chick tract on this? He says the dinos died out because the air was thinner after the ark landed and that the dinosaurs all ran to the tops of the mountains to hide in the clouds and cavemen knew this so they killed them all off because they were easy prey.

No, I'm not kidding:
www.chick.com...

Notice that the Evil Cavemen are dressed like Harpo Marx or pseudo-Arab terrorists. Ah, there's "truth" at its "finest."



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