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Man Working On The Moon?

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posted on Sep, 6 2007 @ 02:53 PM
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Originally posted by zorgon

Originally posted by Chorlton
BTW do you have any Scientific, Engineering or Geophysics qualifications at all?

Yes... Chemistry, Geology and Electronics...


At what level?


Enough to recognize mining on the moon


Or mistake Geology?


And you?

LLB and LLM from the UK and a CPP from the Sorbonne Paris. None of which is directly relevant to what we are discussing. But I dont need a degree to identify fuzzy geology




posted on Sep, 6 2007 @ 04:50 PM
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"things like this prove dangerous for satellites and future men working on the moon" ?

I'm just thinking here on how it might be a typing/grammar goof up.

To say it proves conclusively that there's half a city (whole lotta bases?) on the moon is a bit over the top though.
I'm not saying there's nothing on the moon but the way you make it sound is reaching to premature and baseless conclusions.
men working on the moon could mean as few as 2, maybe 50. but why reach out to a "a whole lotta bases" right from the get go?

Interesting find though


[edit on 6/9/2007 by David2012]



posted on Sep, 6 2007 @ 11:32 PM
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Originally posted by Chorlton But I dont need a degree to identify fuzzy geology


No just a good pair if eye glasses, then the rocks wouldn't look so fuzzy to you anymore.




posted on Sep, 8 2007 @ 01:27 AM
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Humanity lacks the cohesion it takes to get through this transition period sometimes. This is an example why, most europeans have lots of catching up to do, and now that they are, they are showing signs of it. Instead of bickering about credentials, one should realize that certain people do outrank others here on ATS in terms of points, but even though that is not everything, it should still be taken in consideration. One should realize too that this logical theory about an inhabited moon is logical, therefore we should try to disprove and be skeptical about our media, instead of bringing the hammer down on the people who ask good questions, and give good anwers.

The moon will be inhabited officially and shown to the public in 2015 according to NASA. So I believe that the head start has occurred already and humans are on the moon right now. The dis-colorization on the moon and gravity lock is fishy. Will Steven Spielberg's Dreamworks be involved? Who knows, but remember how Spielberg's logo for dreamworks is a fisherman sitting on the moon. E.T had a famous logo. The remake of the Sistine Chapel's ceiling, the finger of god touching adam, the DNA strands being altered for the first time. Behind that you have the Moon. So the artist for the logo thought that a genome project is conducted on the moon.

[edit on 9/8/2007 by StreetCorner Philosopher]



posted on Sep, 8 2007 @ 11:00 AM
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Originally posted by Zenagain
LOL....From the mouths of babes.... Ya know? The kids got a point. My big problem with the whole "People are on the moon mining" thing is this. Why not let people know? I mean, wouldn't it be a huge feather in our national cap if we had had people continuously on the moon for some 40 odd years?


But what if there were Americans on the Moon in the Sixties but they lost a few battle's in space and on Earth against the Russians? Would you want to know that the Russians are currently occupying the Moon and operating dozens of Particle beam weapons that would turn the US into swiss cheese in the next world war?

I'm not for secrecy but i presume you can see how those who want to keep the American economy going would not like such a 'fact' exposed...


Where are the launchs happening?


Why presume there are launches happening? Have you ever heard of anti gravity craft and who do you think operates the things we see flying around at such tremendous speeds? Do you believe in aliens and that they have nothing better to do than fly around and kidnap Americans? Wouldn't it make more sense for the American government to do that sort of thing?


Do you realize how much infrastructure would have to be boosted into orbit then ferried to the moon to build a base for last Human occupation?


Well interestingly the US government trough NASA could have transported 2.2 + million pounds to the Moon by allocating the shuttle budget and design cost to continued operations of the Saturn V's. With the Pentagon budget missing a few trillion dollars isn't it rather silly to argue that this could not be done for a lack of resources?


It just......doesn't add up.


Well unless you understand the forumula's algebra and math in general makes little sense. The cure for all these ' it doesn't add up' is normally in becoming informed.

Stellar



posted on Sep, 8 2007 @ 12:50 PM
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reply to post by StellarX
 



Where to start? First off. If the Russians had particle beam weaponry mounted on the moon that could tear up the U.S., (And by extension, any other country) we all would be living under a Russian/Soviet hegemony. Instead, Russia is a poor country fairly rapidly grasping again for it's Communist roots because it couldn't make the change to a Democracy.

As for that concept of UFO's as Human made craft, or more to the point secret U.S. craft, I'll point out something to you. When the SR-71 was still a secret craft, did anyone see it making low level flights over massivly populated ares? Did you see B-2's, F-117's or U2's making low level flights over, say, New York? No. When aircraft are "secret", you do everything in your power to "keep" them secret until you have to reveal their presence.

And for the Saturn 5 program? I have no idea why they decided to scrap it and go with the Shuttle program. I suppose I could research it a bit and find out though. Just off the top of my head, I'd guess it had something to do with the need for telecommunications and when it comes right down to it, a Saturn 5 is a bit wasteful to put a satelite in orbit.....



posted on Sep, 8 2007 @ 12:54 PM
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Greetings Stellar X You make such rare appearances but bring so much to the table




Originally posted by StellarX
I'm not for secrecy but i presume you can see how those who want to keep the American economy going would not like such a 'fact' exposed...


As to the secrecy thing... a funny thing happens as you dig through the layers of secrecy... Here is a statement by Neil Armstrong at a speech at the White House...

“…..available to those who can remove one of truths protective layers.”

In the Space Shuttle Thread we have been seeking out the Secret Space Stations (SSS) and found one.. ATSS >someone made a comment about "cloaking Devices" to hide them.. well we have been looking into just that...

Now comes the rub... the minute you do that you are stepping into stealth technology, and questions in that area come with a price, as was "explained" to me a few days ago..

Look at it this way IF they wanted you to know about them, they wouldn't be secret... so when you find them, even if only using public domain sources, you are stepping on some big toes...

As far as the moon mining operation... the biggest gain is the energy from HE3 which I now know would reduce your electric bill to .04 per kilowatt hour

One thing people do overlook... free or cheap energy is all well and good, but think of the consequences to the economy... a sudden change would effect millions of jobs... but it would also break the control of the "Oil Barons"

Now THAT is a pretty good reason to keep secrets... at least until the "Oil Barons" can get the Lunar Mining under control and become the new "Helium Barons" and then watch what happens to that .04 cents

So truth indeed does have many layers as Neil Armstrong said...



Where are the launchs happening?



Why presume there are launches happening? Have you ever heard of anti gravity craft and who do you think operates the things we see flying around at such tremendous speeds? Do you believe in aliens and that they have nothing better to do than fly around and kidnap Americans? Wouldn't it make more sense for the American government to do that sort of thing?


Quite true about the anti-gravity. John's father Bill Lear along with TT Brown was working on that in the late 40's, but there is a funny thing about launches...

First people living near them don't "see" them after awhile... in that I mean they don't pay attention... how many launches from Vandenburg, or other places make the main stream news? Then we have platforms like Sea Launch, a joint Boeing/Energia(Russian) venture that has the only countdown done in both Russian and English..

Then we have places like Russia, Australia (Woomera has had a long standing "contract" with NASA) and there are some "Islands" we found that play a big part in this...

Check out the Space Shuttle thread... how many of you know that ISS can dock MANY vehicles at once? And that the Progress series robotic cargo ships from Russia dock at the same time as the Shuttle? Don't see THAT on the news do you? (Progress 61/Atlanta)


Do you realize how much infrastructure would have to be boosted into orbit then ferried to the moon to build a base for last Human occupation?


I have just one thing to say to that.... ISRU (In Situ Resource Utilization)
Lunar and Martian Fiberglass as a Versatile Family of ISRU Value-Added Products



Well interestingly the US government trough NASA could have transported 2.2 + million pounds to the Moon by allocating the shuttle budget and design cost to continued operations of the Saturn V's. With the Pentagon budget missing a few trillion dollars isn't it rather silly to argue that this could not be done for a lack of resources?


I wonder how much money THESE cost them


Now please read this abstract carefully



Method of Delivering Lunar Generated Fluid
to Earth Orbit Using an External Tank

Publication number: US5092545
Publication date: 1992-03-03
Inventor: BUTTERFIELD ANSEL J (US); GOSLEE JOHN W (US)
Applicant: NASA (US)
ABSTRACT

A method and apparatus are provided for delivering lunar generated fluid to Earth orbit from lunar orbit. Transport takes place in an external tank of a shuttle which has been suitably outfitted in Earth orbit for reusable travel between Earth orbit and a lunar orbit. The outfitting of the external tank includes the adding of an engine, an electrical system, a communication system, a guidance system, an aerobraking device, and a plurality of interconnected fluid storage tanks to the hydrogen and oxygen tanks of the external tank. The external tank is then propelled to lunar orbit the first time using Earth based propellant. In lunar orbit, the storage tanks are filled with the lunar generated fluid with the remainder tank volumes filled with lunar generated liquid oxygen and hydrogen which serve as propellants for returning the tank to Earth orbit where the fluid is off-loaded. The remaining lunar generated oxygen and hydrogen is then sufficient to return the external tank to lunar orbit so that a subsequent cycle of fluid delivery is repeated. A space station in a higher Earth orbit is preferably used to outfit the external tank, and a lunar node in lunar orbit is used to store and transfer the fluid and liquid oxygen and hydrogen to the external tank. The lunar generated fluid is preferably 3He.




BTW that is NOT the ISS in the drawing, but the ATSS


The H and O are delivered to the Langranian points to fuel return trips. The rest of the stuff ISRU STAYS on the moon for construction... people always assume that we need to haul everything back and forth WE DON'T

Here is the specially outfitted Shuttle to ferry the cargo container back and forth... NEVER NEEDING NEW LAUNCHES FROM EARTH



Now this is not some wild theory this is a NASA Patent issues by the US Patent office in 1992!!! Fifteen years ago

PATENT US5092545 PDF FORMAT


So to the question of the OP

Was this a slip or a misinterpretation? Maybe

Is man working on the Moon?

Youbetcha!!!


And Mars too... I have it on really good authority


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[edit on 9/9/2007 by Mirthful Me]



posted on Sep, 8 2007 @ 01:03 PM
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Originally posted by Zenagain
And for the Saturn 5 program? I have no idea why they decided to scrap it and go with the Shuttle program. I suppose I could research it a bit and find out though. Just off the top of my head, I'd guess it had something to do with the need for telecommunications and when it comes right down to it, a Saturn 5 is a bit wasteful to put a satelite in orbit.....


As to the Saturn 5 Yes by all means do that research that is...

Start with Project Lunex A 1961 Air Force document that says this about the Saturn 5


# 1.6 CAPABILITIES DEVELOPED

The development of large boosters, rendezvous techniques and manoeuvrable space vehicles, all required for the Lunar Expedition, will also provide a capability for many new and advanced space achievements. For example, the Space Launching System which will boost 134,000 pounds to escape velocity will boost approximately 350,000 pounds into a 300 nm orbit, or will launch a manned vehicle on a pass around either Mars or Venus.


The summary is here I have the original declassified file which I will put online soon...

Project Lunex

And then take your research to the present and look up HH Schmitt... and see what he plans to do with the Saturn 5


(Sorry no links... I am working on that angle right now and not ready to present it)



posted on Sep, 8 2007 @ 01:27 PM
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Originally posted by ZenagainInstead, Russia is a poor country fairly rapidly grasping again for it's Communist roots because it couldn't make the change to a Democracy.


Don't be so quick to count the Russians out... And don't worry about those beam weapons... they are on our side... always have been... the cold war was a front to gain control and money...

They have a really cool shuttle that most Americans STILL do not know exists... yeah yeah I know "it never flew..."





In this video you will see two of the launches with a BLACK vehicle on the rocket... this is one of the Progress Cargo ships... They just launched Progress 61


Progress M-61 Docks at Space Station

August 6, 2007 7:59AM

The Progress M-61 ship delivered oxygen, water, food and scientific equipment to the station's crew -- Russian cosmonauts Fyodor Yurchikhin and Oleg Kotov, and U.S. astronaut Clayton Anderson. The cargo ship also brought two spare computers to back up those that failed in June, briefly disabling oxygen production on the space station.


Space Shuttle Endeavour. STS-118 successfully lifted off on August 8, 2007

BOTH went to ISS... BOTH docked at the same time..



Progress-M 60...

...is a Russian automatic cargo carrier that was launched by a Soyuz-U rocket from Baikonur at 03:25 UT on 12 May 2007.

It carried 45 kg of air, 419 kg of water, and 1.4 tons of dry cargo, 241 kg of fresh fruits and vegetables, 136 kg of medical equipment.

It docked automatically with the Zvezda module of the ISS at 05:10 UT on 15 May 2007.(docked on the fourth day) Four days to reach the ISS? There is no explanation for this behavior. - Jack Arneson - Pegasus


Thats over 500 pounds of Fresh Fruit and Vegetables for 5 people?


In the video you will see several landings as the airstrip is different in each one..

Never flew huh?

It carries 5 more tons than ours and DOESN'T need a pilot


Energia/Boeing Joint venture - Sea Launch

Read a book "The Two Sides of the Moon" by a US and Russian astronaut... tells all about the "cold war"




As I said Don't count the Russian out...



I really like this little film too....

Shuttle Buran & Antonov AN225 Mriya




Another feature of the craft is that when fitted with special modules, it can actually take off from the runway and land... BY ITSELF

And last I checked you can buy one of THESE versions for 6 million




Funny thing is the Buran was supposed to be destroyed when the roof collapsed on the hanger

Then the rumor was the collapse was to cover up the sale to the Chinese

And now they have one fitted for flight for sale at auction...



www.space.com...


So just how many of these are there?



No one associated with the auction in the United States is sure exactly which Buran it is that the potential winning bidder will take possession of, said Willie Whyte, chief executive officer of Los Angeles-based First FX, Inc., a company that helps people manage online trading on the Foreign Exchange.

Admitting he wouldn't know one space shuttle from another, Whyte said all he knows is that the Buran to be auctioned has never flown in space. But he does have a lot confidence in his source for the hardware.


Russia's shuttle Buran sits on its launch pad at the Baikonur Cosmodrome



[edit on 8-9-2007 by zorgon]

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[edit on 9/9/2007 by Mirthful Me]



posted on Sep, 8 2007 @ 03:29 PM
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Originally posted by Zenagain
Where to start? First off. If the Russians had particle beam weaponry mounted on the moon that could tear up the U.S.,


They had and still have more than enough nuclear and strategic weaponry to do that without the benefit on anything they might or might not have on the Moon...


(And by extension, any other country) we all would be living under a Russian/Soviet hegemony.


Which might be true but clearly isn't considering the fact they never used their obvious might to conquer Afghanistan/Iran and a host of other countries....


Instead, Russia is a poor country fairly rapidly grasping again for it's Communist roots


Grasping for it's 'communist' roots? What does the poverty of the people have to do with how well armed the countries armed forces is?


because it couldn't make the change to a Democracy.


Oh it did and at least Putin actually WON his elections unlike Jnr.


As for that concept of UFO's as Human made craft, or more to the point secret U.S. craft, I'll point out something to you. When the SR-71 was still a secret craft, did anyone see it making low level flights over massivly populated ares?


I don't think so but there are plenty of things that could be flying over populated areas that are not at all secret...


Did you see B-2's, F-117's or U2's making low level flights over, say, New York? No. When aircraft are "secret", you do everything in your power to "keep" them secret until you have to reveal their presence.


So then maybe it's Russian or Chinese black project aircraft; or aliens if you MUST go there?


And for the Saturn 5 program? I have no idea why they decided to scrap it and go with the Shuttle program.


They thought it was the best way to waste the US tax payers money, what else?


I suppose I could research it a bit and find out though. Just off the top of my head, I'd guess it had something to do with the need for telecommunications and when it comes right down to it, a Saturn 5 is a bit wasteful to put a satelite in orbit....


It's in fact cheaper to do it that way and the reason the USSR/Russia kept doing it that way.


Second, to paraphrase Dr. George Mueller at a NASA history conference held in Washington in recent years, we “got the shuttle we have today from the ‘Bureau of the Budget Design Bureau’” that NASA did not want and that was not cheaper than Saturn 5.

www.space.com...


Could have had Walmarts on the Moon i tell you!

www.transterrestrial.com...

And the possibly cheaper alternatives or general disagreements which then turn into almost agreement...

www.space.com...

selenianboondocks.blogspot.com...

Stellar



posted on Sep, 8 2007 @ 03:42 PM
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Originally posted by zorgon
Don't be so quick to count the Russians out... And don't worry about those beam weapons... they are on our side... always have been... the cold war was a front to gain control and money...


I can agree with everything but this very common misconception.
What type of 'secret' information can you present me with that proves who's activities we are observing on the Moon?

Stellar



posted on Sep, 8 2007 @ 07:52 PM
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Originally posted by StellarX
I can agree with everything but this very common misconception.
What type of 'secret' information can you present me with that proves who's activities we are observing on the Moon?


Ummm hmmmm tough question... I suppose you just can't take my word for it huh?


No? Well if I told you it wouldn't be 'secret' any more...??

Okay.. ya got me... I am not ready to reveal that data yet... but I'm working on it... I guess it would be too weird if we agreed on everything



posted on Sep, 9 2007 @ 06:35 AM
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Originally posted by zorgon
Ummm hmmmm tough question... I suppose you just can't take my word for it huh?


Oh i can.



No? Well if I told you it wouldn't be 'secret' any more...??


Oh i am quite convinced that Americans were first on the moon but as far as i am concerned those who survived had to leave in a hurry. And NO, there were no aliens involved!


Okay.. ya got me... I am not ready to reveal that data yet... but I'm working on it...


And you better make it convincing as geopolitical events on Earth do not seem to be suggesting of a American moon base bristling with weapons.



I guess it would be too weird if we agreed on everything


It would be nice if we could but i i plan on growing old so we still have some time left.


Stellar



posted on Sep, 9 2007 @ 01:02 PM
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Just my humble little opinion, but with China having recently destroyed one of their own satellites, merely to prove it is possible, I think we have some more pressing matters to look forward to... such as getting shuttles in orbit without being damaged by the debris layer. The sat. was in the outermost orbit, true, so that merely enhances the possibility of the lower satellites to be damaged/destroyed, in case of war (or even an indirect proclamation of war)?

In any case, with the Xmark being enforced in the UK and US during next year, the NASA's Bluebeam testing the past quarter century or so, and the Roman Catholics (the Religion that is merely a political system, the Roman Empire re-branded in the Fourth Century) about to unite all religions into a One World Religion, maybe we should let the Martians and Moonlings lie. Any mining to be done on the moon, should have serious financial implications for that country's government. And with the theft of Iraq's oil wells, the American Government have seriously spent more than was necessary.

Then again, they say the U.S.A.'s national debt is the highest in the world...



posted on Sep, 9 2007 @ 05:32 PM
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Originally posted by J.Smit

Then again, they say the U.S.A.'s national debt is the highest in the world...


But who is going to collect on it?




posted on Sep, 9 2007 @ 05:47 PM
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Originally posted by StellarX
And NO, there were no aliens involved!


I'm there with you on the Aliens...



And you better make it convincing as geopolitical events on Earth do not seem to be suggesting of a American moon base bristling with weapons.


Sigh... So just who am I going to convince? The skeptics? Not unless I give them a ride in that anti gravity ship John's dad was working on and dropped them off at the mine


The believers? LOL they are already convinced

But its true I am NOT finding a lot of weapons, but a lot of Robotic space cargo ships from both sides of the curtain!

Delivering tons of food, even a 1/2 ton of fresh fruits and vegetables..

I AM finding a huge build up of Space Command... maybe if we did have to leave the moon in a hurry, we are gearing up to do what America does best Go Kick Butt!!


Its funny that the main stream news shows the Shuttle at ISS but neglects the fact that a Progress automated cargo ship from Russia was docking at the same time Progree 61 launched Aug 6 Endeavor Aug 8

Just how many vessels CAN dock at the ISS at the same time?



And just where do you find 700 Navy Officers that are "Space Experience" to head up a Cadre stood up in 2001?



posted on Sep, 9 2007 @ 06:24 PM
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Originally posted by zorgon
I'm there with you on the Aliens...


I should have said i don't need any 'aliens' to explain modern reality; when you go back far enough it's hard to do without.



Sigh... So just who am I going to convince? The skeptics? Not unless I give them a ride in that anti gravity ship John's dad was working on and dropped them off at the mine


Probably so.



The believers? LOL they are already convinced


Yeah but believers can believe anything on very sketchy 'evidence'; being able to fill a spacecraft with those should not be too hard.



But its true I am NOT finding a lot of weapons, but a lot of Robotic space cargo ships from both sides of the curtain!


Sure you would!


The game has two campaigns, the American campaign and the Russian campaign. The game takes place in an alternate version of the 1960s in which the United States and the Soviet Union use alien technology to wage a secret war across the solar system, fighting for control of the rare resource bio-metal.

The game starts in 1957 when a group of meteorites falls near the Bering Strait, which both the Americans and the Russians are able to recover. In these meteorites they find "bio-metal", and discover that with it they can build vehicles with amazing features, such as the ability to hover. Both the Soviets and Americans send forces to the Moon; the Apollo program is revealed to be a cover-up for the massive American military operation there. The American space military force is called the NSDF, for National Space Defense Force, and the Soviets' is named the CCA, for Cosmos Colonist Army (However, manuals for the earlier version of the game call the CCA the 'Communist Cosmonaut Army'). The Soviets force the Americans off the Moon by destroying the main American outpost there, called Eagle's Nest 1. The NSDF relocates to Mars, only to discover that the CCA is already there. An alien artifact is discovered there by both sides, presumably by the same race who created the bio-metal. A weapons factory built by this civilization is also found on Mars. It is revealed that the race in question called themselves the Cthonians, and lived on a planet called Icarus that occupied the orbit of what is now the asteroid belt. According to the game, Greek myths were based on visitations of Earth by the Cthonians.

en.wikipedia.org...


One of my more memorable gaming experiences.



Delivering tons of food, even a 1/2 ton of fresh fruits and vegetables..

I AM finding a huge build up of Space Command... maybe if we did have to leave the moon in a hurry, we are gearing up to do what America does best Go Kick Butt!!


Sounds like you should be playing battlezone; it comes HIGHLY recommended.



Its funny that the main stream news shows the Shuttle at ISS but neglects the fact that a Progress automated cargo ship from Russia was docking at the same time Progree 61 launched Aug 6 Endeavor Aug 8

Just how many vessels CAN dock at the ISS at the same time?


Well i don't know but since we know that the Russians government can barely keep their people fed we KNOW they can't be building spaceships or colonizing space while fighting Americans.
You even found some bodies on your moon and mars pictures but we all know that's just lights&shadows.



And just where do you find 700 Navy Officers that are "Space Experience" to head up a Cadre stood up in 2001?


I have no idea but i suppose that even thought that British hacker was supposedly quite high his reports on a list of American space ships may well be accurate.


Stellar



posted on Sep, 9 2007 @ 07:03 PM
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Originally posted by StellarX

And just where do you find 700 Navy Officers that are "Space Experience" to head up a Cadre stood up in 2001?


I have no idea but I suppose that even thought that British hacker was supposedly quite high his reports on a list of American space ships may well be accurate.



Now see, thats what I don't get... maybe it was just the method he used that got him in trouble... but I am finding the same info in publicly accessible journals, albeit hard to find if you don't look in the right sites.. but never the less in public domain...

Unless he really hit the jack pot... but it makes no sense

As to how many vehicles can dock at ISS


A whole heap bunch...




[edit on 9-9-2007 by zorgon]



posted on Sep, 10 2007 @ 10:37 AM
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What about if China's satelite was a potential threat and it got partical beamed. Would China say anything?

[edit on 10-9-2007 by arclore]



posted on Sep, 13 2007 @ 12:41 AM
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Originally posted by StellarX
But what if there were Americans on the Moon in the Sixties but they lost a few battle's in space and on Earth against the Russians? Would you want to know that the Russians are currently occupying the Moon and operating dozens of Particle beam weapons that would turn the US into swiss cheese in the next world war?


Would that be particle beams mounted in Shuttle bays (those shuttles that they don't have that fly by themselves) that are taking potshots at my "Critters" (Space lifeforms mistaken by many as UFO's in NASA Infrared films)



No I won't tell you about that yet as I need to secure permissions but they better not be trying to shoot the 'critters' NASA tried that didn't work either


Here is an interesting quote

Originally posted by Melbourne_Militia
Titled "High Frontier"
Subtitle "There is a defense against Nuclear War"
by General Daniel O.Graham
Former Deputy Director of the CIA
It was written in 1983, published by Tom Doherty Associates,Inc.
8-10 West 36th Street, New York, New York, 10018



By Newt Gingrich
" . . . He who Controls Space may well control the future of Mankind. We have a chance, through High Frontier, using existing technology to develop a space program that is absolutely necessary to our survival and that will give us a chance to move past the Russians to assure our own nation and freedom a future on this planet"


From This Post

With the current research we are in it looks like you may be right about the Russians



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