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God & Jesus.Are They One & The Same?

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posted on Sep, 3 2007 @ 02:23 PM
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According to most Christians, Jesus was God-incarnate, full man and full God. Can the finite and the infinite be one? "To be full" God means freedom from finite forms and from helplessness, and to be "full man" means the absence of divinity.To be son is to be less than divine and to be divine is to be no one’s son. How could Jesus have the attributes of sonship and divinity altogether?
Christians assert that Jesus claimed to be God when they quote him in John 14:9: "He that has seen me has seen the Father". Didn’t Jesus clearly say that people have never seen God, as it says in John 5:37: "And the father himself which Has sent me, has borne witness of me. You have NEITHER HEARD HIS VOICE AT ANY TIME NOR SEEN HIS SHAPE"?

If Jesus was GOD, then why in Mark 12:29 Jesus said "Here, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord." The words "our God" indicate that Jesus had a higher God over him, a stronger God than him. Jesus didn't say "Your God". He said "our God" which includes Jesus as the creation of GOD.
If Jesus was GOD, then why did he ask for GOD's Forgiveness in Luke 23:34? Please visit How can Jesus be GOD Almighty when he asked for GOD's Forgiveness?
If Jesus was GOD, then why Mark 15:34 says "And at the ninth hour Jesus cried out in a loud voice, "Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?"—which means, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"
If Jesus was GOD, then did Paul say in 1 Corinthians 8:6 "yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live."
If Jesus was GOD, then why in John 20:17 Jesus said "Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet returned to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, 'I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.' "
If Jesus was GOD, then why in John 8:28 Jesus said "I do nothing of myself"? Can't GOD do anything he wills?
If Jesus was GOD, then why in John 14:28 Jesus said "My Father (GOD) is greater than I"?
If Jesus was GOD, then why in Luke 23:46 Jesus said "Father (GOD), into thy hands I commend my spirit"?
If Jesus was GOD, then why in Mark 10:18 Jesus said “And Jesus said to him, ‘Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone.”?
Also in Luke 18:19 Jesus said only GOD Almighty is Good: ""Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good—except God alone."
If Jesus was GOD, then why in Matthew 26:39 Jesus begged his GOD to have mercy on him and to pass the cup to death (kill Jesus in another words) before Jesus goes through the pain of crucifixion? Also see: Jesus' crucifixion in Islam
If Jesus was GOD, then why in John 18:38 he didn't reply when he was asked about the truth?
If Jesus was GOD, then why in Matthew 24:36 Jesus said "No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father." Jesus told his followers that no one (including Jesus) knows when the judgment day will come, only GOD knows?
If Jesus was GOD, then why in Isaiah 11:2-3 GOD had put the spirit of fearing GOD in Jesus? Also see GOD's Spirit in the many others beside Jesus.
If Jesus was GOD, then why in John 5:31 Jesus told his followers that if he (Jesus) bears witness of himself, then his record is not true?
If Jesus was GOD, then why in John 5:30 Jesus told his followers that he can't do a single thing of his own initiative?
If Jesus was GOD, then why in John 5:36-38 Jesus said that GOD had assigned him (Jesus) work and GOD is a witness on Jesus?
If Jesus was GOD, then why in John 5:32 Jesus told his followers that they have never seen GOD at anytime nor ever heard his voice?
If Jesus was GOD, then why did he pray to his GOD in Luke 5:16?
If Jesus was GOD, then why in Matthew 26:39 Jesus fell on his face and prayed to his GOD?
If Jesus was GOD, then how come in Hebrew 5:7 he prayed and cried for GOD to hear him and give him mercy by saving him from death?
If Jesus was GOD, then how come in John 1:18 he said "No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only, who is at the FATHER'S side, has made HIM known." Where do you see Trinity in this Verse?
If Jesus was GOD, then how come in John 5:37 he said "And the FATHER who sent me has himself testified concerning me. You have never heard HIS voice nor seen HIS form," Jesus and the GOD are different. People heard Jesus, but never heard GOD.

How come Christians take the "God's Son" title literally with Jesus and they don't take it literally for the rest of the prophets and people who were called the Sons of God?
In John 3:16 Jesus was called God's only Begotten Son.
In Exodus 4:22 "Thus saith Jehovah, Israel is my son, even my firstborn." Israel was called God's First Son.
In Jeremiah 31:9 "I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn." Ephraim is God's First Son and First Born.
In Psalm 2:7 "....Jehovah had said onto me (David), thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee." David was called God's Begotten Son.

Is God three-in-one and one in three simultaneously or one at a time?
If God is one and three simultaneously, then none of the three could be the complete God. Granting that such was the case, then when Jesus was on earth, he wasn’t a complete God, nor was the "father in Heaven" a whole God. Doesn’t that contradict what Jesus always said about His God and our God in heaven, his Lord and our Lord ? Does that also mean that there was no complete god then, between the claimed crucifixion and the claimed resurrection?If God is one and three at a time, then who was the God in heaven when Jesus was on earth? Wouldn’t this contradict his many references to a God in Heaven that sent him?

Why do Christians say that God is three-in-one and one in three when Jesus says in Mark 12:29: "The Lord our God is one Lord"
If belief in the Trinity was such a necessary condition for being a Christian, why didn’t Jesus teach and emphasize it to the Christians during his time? How were those followers of Jesus considered Christians without ever hearing the term Trinity? Had the Trinity been the spinal cord of Christianity, Jesus would have emphasized it on many occasions and would have taught and explained it in detail to the people.
Where,specifically,in the Gospels does Jesus mention the Trinity?
How could Jesus possibly have omitted to mention something of such extraordinary importance?How could the authors of the four Gospels have made the same extraordinary omission?




posted on Sep, 3 2007 @ 04:21 PM
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Maybe because Christendom regards Tradition a higher authority.

Both Judaism and Islam don't believe in a Trinity. Since Christendom is based on Judaism, then Christendom should not believe in a Trinity.

The problem started when Rome made Christianity a State Religion. Rome blended its original beliefs into Christianity to satisfy the populous. The Trinity and Christmas were some of the results from that union.

Tradition is stronger than family ties.

[edit on 3-9-2007 by lostinspace]



posted on Sep, 3 2007 @ 04:32 PM
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I agree,but most christians don't even realise that their faith is built on a much older one.they think that by reading the bible alone they can understand it.failing to realise all the contradictions,the mistranslations etc,that dwell within its pages.

My reason for asking this question is because the Catholic church(i was baptized catholic) still preaches of the Holy Trinity and all that comes with it.to them it is a sacred thing,yet all evidence proves that it is an impossibility!

[edit on 3-9-2007 by jakyll]



posted on Sep, 3 2007 @ 10:14 PM
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Jesus was quoting Moses from the book of Deuteronomy:


Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:
~ Deuteronomy 6:4


So the Greek 'one' must not be translated according to what the Greek word meant but according to the Hebrew word initially used and what it meant. And that was 'echad' which means:


H259
A numeral from H258; properly united, that is, one; or (as an ordinal) first: - a, alike, alone, altogether, and, any (-thing), apiece, a certain [dai-] ly, each (one), + eleven, every, few, first, + highway, a man, once, one, only, other, some, together.


So it means GOD is united either/or GOD was first. Since the book of Genesis says 'let US make man in our image' etc. and elsewhere we find GOD saying 'NO other GODS before me' and 'I AM the FIRST' then it might very well mean BOTH.

The first pantheon is the last pantheon?

Would that be Zeus' generation or Chronos' (Saturn?)

In the book of Daniel it says that one will come who will honor the GOD of forces - one that his 'fathers' knew not.

YHVH means, basically, 'self-created.' That also fits in with being FIRST as opposed to SECOND.



posted on Sep, 3 2007 @ 10:33 PM
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The moral of this story seems to me to be that the bible is full of contradictions. Perhaps these contradictions were inserted by peoples with agendas, I'm not sure we can ever know for sure.

The fact that these inconsistencies exist in the bible means it cannot be taken as the literal word of God, nor even a spiritual basis to construct a lifestyle around. The very notion of Christianity is a philosophical impossibility if you take everything in the bible to be true. I don't even think Jesus taught many of the things that is put to his name. I can't cite specific examples because I'm not a biblical scholar. None the less Jesus contradicts himself multiple times as the OP showed.



posted on Sep, 4 2007 @ 10:59 AM
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reply to post by queenannie38
 


Thanks so much for your reply...(waving at ya)...lol.

But that doesn't explain why Jesus never preached of the Trinity,or why he refered to himself again and again as being only a creation of god,not god himself!

[edit on 4-9-2007 by jakyll]



posted on Sep, 4 2007 @ 11:58 AM
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just some thoughts...

if we had all alien abductees and contactees write a book that was a compilation of their stories, i'm pretty sure it would be safe to say that there would be inconsistencies - even contradictions. they may all firmly believe in what they saw and will swear on a stack of bibles that they're telling the truth.

now consider the bible. some of the passages read like tales that teach a lesson. some read like accounts of actual events. we even have an "old" and "new" testament. depending on which line of faith you follow, they may leave out either of them because it conflicts with what they teach. there's no unilateral focus to the bible other than "praise god or die". just a bunch of disjointed manuscripts thrown together from people who likely never got a chance to even collaborate.

my point is it's hard to come to conclusions on something that had so many contributors - especially when they often don't even have a common topic or point. if all of it came from God, then why wouldn't it be consistent, regardless of the person "channeling god" for lack of better terms.

anyway, the faith i grew up in considered jesus and god to be seperate entities.



posted on Sep, 4 2007 @ 12:16 PM
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If one sincerely seeks him, he will reveal all of that.

There is one mediator and we (believers) are not him.


One can have a brilliant mind, yet if they only see a mile. They'll only go a mile. Whoever has will be given. Whoever has none, even that which he seems to have will be taken from him.



posted on Sep, 4 2007 @ 01:40 PM
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Do you believe that the Holy Trinity should still be taught to people though?



posted on Sep, 4 2007 @ 02:28 PM
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Originally posted by jakyll
But that doesn't explain why Jesus never preached of the Trinity,or why he referred to himself again and again as being only a creation of god,not god himself!


Well, if we take if from what we might deduce from Jesus' own point of view, he said:


Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me. If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.
~ John 7:16-17


Then obviously such ideas were not given to him to preach about. Either they weren't pertinent or weren't true. Or both.



posted on Sep, 5 2007 @ 12:23 AM
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Originally posted by jakyll
Do you believe that the Holy Trinity should still be taught to people though?



No. It is not truth. But you cannot persuade the Pope that he is teaching a lie. Once you deviate from the church doctrine you are labeled an Apostate and are kicked out. Jesus was labeled an apostate by the Jewish religious leaders of his day and they had him killed.

You just need to find a Christian faith that does not teach the Trinity as Doctrine. Just don't go to one that tickles your ear, so to speak. A religion must disect its own holy writings to make sure they are true. I think the Boreans did that.



posted on Sep, 5 2007 @ 10:23 AM
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Originally posted by lostinspace
Jesus was labeled an apostate by the Jewish religious leaders of his day and they had him killed.




Matthew 28:19-20

19Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

20Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.


Small stumbling block for satan. satan is a single creation. Therefore he cannot play the part of three in one. He in and of himself is only one thing.


Originally posted by lostinspace
You just need to find a Christian faith that does not teach the Trinity as Doctrine.


There is no such thing as multiple "christian" "faiths".

Faith is a gift from GOD. Therefore no man creates it, nor has the power to do so. No matter what one subscribes to. If they have not been born again, they will burn.

Can a child chose to be born? Can a man return to his mother's womb?


Originally posted by lostinspace
Just don't go to one that tickles your ear, so to speak.


Whether an ear is tickled or gouged out. It won't make a man any more or less born again.

Sorry for the salty meat, but it's the truth.



posted on Sep, 6 2007 @ 08:00 AM
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I think thats a problem with the chrisitan faith,it is based on judaism but it doesn't understand it.a totally different god has been created/seperated from that which the jews believe in.


Faith may be a gift from the gods,but man has created many religions!



posted on Sep, 6 2007 @ 10:20 AM
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The doctrine of the trinity is not an original consensus Christian teaching. Early church fathers did not necessarily see Jesus as God, but as the son of God. The insistance of the "three in one" began about the 4th century AD, though some Christian groups today disbelieve the trinitarian doctrine and don't teach it.

www.religionfacts.com...

The modern trend is to address Jesus as God, though before the 1970's it was common to address God as God in prayer (to pray to Yahweh/God rather than praying to Jesus as another name for God.)
en.wikipedia.org...

The variations on the theme (as you can see from that article) are multiple and complex.



posted on Sep, 6 2007 @ 10:45 AM
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@Byrd.

Over the years i've tried to get christians,mainly catholic,to look at the history of their faith.there are those that don't even bother.those that do who then say the corruption is the work of Satan,not man.and occasionaly you'll get someone who understands that in the 4th century a lot of things changed!

I'm not out to prove someone's faith is false or anything like that.I'm just trying to get people to see the bigger picture.when they know that mankind has used faith as a weapon of fear,power and control,then its common sense to then look further to find the truth.
I've always said that the book of enoch and the gnostic texts hold more truth about Jesus & God than the bible does!



thanks for the links



posted on Sep, 10 2007 @ 12:55 PM
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Originally posted by jakyll
Faith may be a gift from the gods, but man has created many religions!


in DEED.

It seems there is a lot of thievery involved, too.


and men's religions are all about 'i am special and you are scorned' or similar sentiments of separation/segregation. And being special is tantamount to volunteering to be a scapegoat. History shows us that without exception.

From the biblical perspective, at the 'Tower of Babel,' I always felt that if God made us all unique and different yet essentially the same, then any religion could be either a way to get closer to the truth or a way to mutilate and use the truth against others.

If God didn't intend for there to be many variations on one theme, then surely there would be just one language, one culture, etc.

And what a terribly boring world that would be!!!



posted on Sep, 10 2007 @ 03:52 PM
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Oh,it would be that.Any fool knows that variety is the spice of life!!

Its a shame that over the centuries mankind has put his own fears and prejudices into a faith,and these thoughts and ideas then become "scripture" and then followers proclaim it to be the word of god/the truth!!

And whats worst of all with the Christian God,the followers say he is a god of truth,love,peace,justice etc.but when you point out his dark side they make excuses for him
yet we condemn people such as Hitler,Stalin,Pol Pot etc.just because God may be an omnipotent being does not mean his violent actions should be dismissed,that he should not stand accountable for his actions! He should not pass the blame onto a "fallen angel."

LOVE.PEACE.TRUTH.JUSTICE.ACCEPTANCE.EQUALITY.TOLERANCE etc.should never ever equal SUFFERING.GENOCIDE.RAPE.LIES.WAR.SLAUGHTER.CONTROL.SLAVERY.PREJUDICE.etc..
..

If people understood that,which is so simple,then the world would be a very different place!!


[edit on 10-9-2007 by jakyll]



posted on Sep, 10 2007 @ 05:59 PM
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Originally posted by jakyll
Oh,it would be that. Any fool knows that variety is the spice of life!!


But not ALL fools...



Its a shame that over the centuries mankind has put his own fears and prejudices into a faith,and these thoughts and ideas then become "scripture" and then followers proclaim it to be the word of god/the truth!!


Ahhh...but you see, this is the way of the 'threshing floor.' Sifting the 'unrighteous' (those who play favorites with self #1) from the 'righteous' (those who are egalitarians in truth).



It is becoming more and more apparent that there is more than one ideation of God competing against each another.

I predict that those who are truly just and non-violent will become more and more obvious as the illusion of religion continues to fade.


just because God may be an omnipotent being does not mean his violent actions should be dismissed,


Or our own, either. Perhaps it is more a case of there being 'temptations' and 'opportunities' for being tyrannical; and those that are that, in their heart, fall for the bait. And only for the sake of self-improvement when enlightenment shines through. For now, the majority of people do not see any benefit or lesson coming from the HARD times in life, yet the bible makes no bones about it: If one wants to be godly and truly sincere in humility, one must SUFFER.


that he should not stand accountable for his actions! He should not pass the blame onto a "fallen angel."


Well, is NOT G.O.D. who seeks to condemn any angel, fallen or otherwise. It is humanity. More diversionary tactics.



posted on Sep, 10 2007 @ 06:35 PM
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reply to post by jakyll
 

Hello Jakyll,



Christians assert that Jesus claimed to be God when they quote him in John 14:9: "He that has seen me has seen the Father". Didn’t Jesus clearly say that people have never seen God, as it says in John 5:37: "And the father himself which Has sent me, has borne witness of me. You have NEITHER HEARD HIS VOICE AT ANY TIME NOR SEEN HIS SHAPE"?


He that hath seen Me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

He said that because:

Gen.1:26. And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness;........
27.So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him.........


He is the image of His Father so when you have seen Him you have seen the Father but it is the Son you see and hear, not the Father.


If Jesus was GOD, then why in Mark 12:29 Jesus said "Here, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord." The words "our God" indicate that Jesus had a higher God over him, a stronger God than him. Jesus didn't say "Your God". He said "our God" which includes Jesus as the creation of GOD.


In Mark 12:29-31 Christ is speaking about the 10 Commandments and telling us that the greatest of them is that "The Lord our God is one Lord", so your above statement is a little out of context.


If Jesus was GOD, then why did he ask for GOD's Forgiveness in Luke 23:34? Please visit How can Jesus be GOD Almighty when he asked for GOD's Forgiveness?


Jakyll, He didn't ask to be forgiven Himself. He is our mediator, our kinsman redeemer.

Luke23:34 Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots.



If Jesus was GOD, then why Mark 15:34 says "And at the ninth hour Jesus cried out in a loud voice, "Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?"—which means, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"


God would never forsake His only begotton Son. Jesus, even during the pain of crucifixion was thinking about us - He was teaching. One of the clues to that is that He NEVER called our Father "God".

1,000 years before His crucifixion, David wrote Psalms 22. It begins, "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? Why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring? The entire Psalm is about the crucifixion.

For instance, vs.18 , They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture.

He was teaching us so we would believe. Not those there that day but us, so we would believe.

I'll have to continue a little later.

...........Whirlwind



posted on Sep, 10 2007 @ 07:26 PM
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If Jesus was GOD, then did Paul say in 1 Corinthians 8:6 "yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live."


Actually, that is a great verse if you believe in the Trinity. Jesus, Yeshua, means Our Father's Saviour

The other "If Jesus was God" questions you asked, all of which are valid, I don't have a pat answer for. I wasn't raised being steeped in church traditions and doctrine so I have never worried about the Trinity. I understand it as this: God is in the spirit realm and we cannot see Him until we are also spirit. Christ came to show us how to live and to do that He had to be born in the flesh. The Holy Spirit is what each of us that love Him have with us always. He, the Spirit, is our comforter. He leads, guides and directs our lives. I know that isn't much help but it is all I can offer.


If Jesus was GOD, then why in Matthew 26:39 Jesus begged his GOD to have mercy on him and to pass the cup to death (kill Jesus in another words) before Jesus goes through the pain of crucifixion? Also see: Jesus' crucifixion in Islam


He wasn't asking for the cup of His death to pass. He came to earth for that reason, to die for our sins. Instead, that "cup" is the cup of wrath that He will pour out at the end of days. It will happen.


How come Christians take the "God's Son" title literally with Jesus and they don't take it literally for the rest of the prophets and people who were called the Sons of God?
In John 3:16 Jesus was called God's only Begotten Son.
In Exodus 4:22 "Thus saith Jehovah, Israel is my son, even my firstborn." Israel was called God's First Son.
In Jeremiah 31:9 "I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn." Ephraim is God's First Son and First Born.


Israel was as a firstborn to God, the 12 tribes, His chosen ones. God is speaking about His chosen ones here, not actual "sons".


In Psalm 2:7 "....Jehovah had said onto me (David), thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee." David was called God's Begotten Son.


And through David would the Saviour come. Earthly sons and family are very different than Christ.


If belief in the Trinity was such a necessary condition for being a Christian, why didn’t Jesus teach and emphasize it to the Christians during his time? How were those followers of Jesus considered Christians without ever hearing the term Trinity? Had the Trinity been the spinal cord of Christianity, Jesus would have emphasized it on many occasions and would have taught and explained it in detail to the people.
Where,specifically,in the Gospels does Jesus mention the Trinity?
How could Jesus possibly have omitted to mention something of such extraordinary importance?How could the authors of the four Gospels have made the same extraordinary omission?


I agree with you Jakyll.......Why indeed?

As I said earlier. The Trinity and believing in it or not doesn't concern me. At times I feel I have grasped it's meaning and other times it is gone like a breath of wind. My faith and love of God, Christ and the Holy Spirit is very strong and whether or not I believe, or even understand, the Trinity just doesn't matter to me.

Congratulations on this post Jakyll. You really did a lot of work and it shows.


.............Whirlwind



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