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Speed of Consciousness?

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posted on Jan, 22 2004 @ 12:47 AM
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Originally posted by TheRenegade
The consciousness must be bound to space, though, for we can only understand space since that is our being. Can anyone on this forum guess what infinity looks like?


Bell's theorem says that the universe is "non-local", and Penrose support his point that consciousness is a quantum phenomena, and by consequence not time-space bound. If there's information exchange faster than the speed of light, then our consciousness has access to other areas in space faster than light. Sure we may not have an intuitive feel of what infinity is, but we can analyze number sets and see which are bigger "infinities" and at what speed they go to infinity.
We have developed tools to understand infinity better.




posted on Jan, 22 2004 @ 04:44 AM
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I find it increasingly difficult to believe the concious or unconcious must be bound to space/time. To use an earlier example of catching a ball, there are alot of things going on while that takes place, yet with practice you can throw/catch a ball while talking, and even eating at the same time without too much difficulty. I'm not sure as I have now Biologigal background here, but I'm guessing that thats a whole lot of calculations going on, resulting in some serious CPU speed.
Also as for the comment of the mind recieving a "boost" when it needs help, this seems like a illogical thing for nature to do. The primary law of nature is "survival of the fittest" and all things evolve in accordance with this law. So it would make us fitter as a species to have access to this "boost" 24/7 instead of just in emergencies, when it could fail us.
Of course I then wonder if the boost is in part of the brain that we havent solved yet. (those area's which have a purpose unknown to us) Or maybe using this boost fires neutrons at speeds that are dangerous to us, and so should only be used in life or death cases.
However the idea of Absolutes is intriguing so i'll have to do a little research into them to fire up my own neurons.


[Edited on 22-1-2004 by feygan]



posted on Jan, 22 2004 @ 01:57 PM
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When I mentioned a 'boost', I was suggesting it in the kind of instict way - as in, we can't control our heart rate. There are also certain things about the body we simply can't control (ie we can't kill ourselves by holding our breath, and the body eventually makes us sleep and gives us hunger). I also like the idea that it is in a part of the brain we don't understand. If the consciousness is actually outside space/time, then we probably don't understand it counsciously (which is kind of ironic...), it is simply one of our instincts. But to be able to tap into that part of the brain could be pretty amazing. People would have lightning-fast reactions (possible faster if the consciosness works in a place faster than light). I mean, imagine a kung fu fight or something where you could block every move. And now you're kind of getting into the Matrix zone, where you could dodge bullets (I know, we can't actually move fast enough - even if we can react fast enough, but it's pretty close!).

If the case is that the consciousness is not bound to space/time, then I think that it's speed would have to be bordering something close to infinite.



posted on Jan, 22 2004 @ 03:09 PM
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Two problems,

Consciousness does not have a fixed measurable variable to accrue some sort of Forumula.

Nor do we have any idea how it arises.

Though thier are many theories, rational to irrational we still dont have any bases to account for how the human consciousness conjurs itself up.

I have always believed that only through meditation and self-reflection can one syntax this problem.

"I" must be found from within "I"

Deep



posted on Jan, 22 2004 @ 03:29 PM
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First you must understand the complex multi-processing that the brain does. It is managing all life support functions, processing and archiving data already received, inputting data from sensory, which includes stereo imaging processing,...and much much more.

The brain has emergency subroutines that begin to disable inputs and limits processing to priority items, in the event of adrenaline rush.

Take the full power of the brain, and start removing the unneeded, and the other processing routines are completed much faster, as they gain levels of priority.

Like a single man, in sudden fear and AD rush, has been proven possible to lift a car off an injured motorist, or that guy that lifted a helocopter to rescue a crash survivor, all by himself.

The moment his brain reaqlized this had to be done, all other info is not needed, and the man follows the emergency path the brain has paved.

Afterwards it's like, "I did what? lifted what?"



I am wondering if this could demonstrate that sensory deprevation could enhance one's brain skill at issue solving.

We only use supposedly 10% of our brain during mundane daily life......but what power or control if the sensors were not so inhibiting could we obtain.

Maybe that is why we only use 10% of our brain.
Becouse it is built with enough processing power headroom (no pun intended) in the event the adrenaline, dopamine levels, push the brain into a major processing loop untill the event is over, or the inborn hunt/fight/flight sense mechanism is no longer blaring out ....Do Something Now !



posted on Jan, 22 2004 @ 04:27 PM
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Another thought that has aisen is once again to do with time slowing down. Assuming I was to go with the theory that thought has no speed, it simply happens in the same way that light seems to move from our perception but not to it's own.
we all know that the closer you get to the speed of light (I'm starting to think this is such a daft term since I've already stated it doesn't have any speed) then time slows down. ie. you age slower, so you could go off at a great speed for 50 years come back and only have physically aged 5 years. This is very basic stuff except for one part that begs questioning. You would only have physically aged 5 years?? so what about your mental state? yes you might at first say well also 5 years as to your perspective it has only been 5 years.
But if thought doesn't have any speed the same way light does not, then surely it would have noticed all those years go by? so firtsly assuming the human mind could cope without going insane, what would happen?
In essense you would have found a way to make yourself almost mentally immortal. you would have had all those extra 45 years to think, contemplate or whatever while your body was in stasis.
Maybe crazy, but just a thought.


[Edited on 22-1-2004 by feygan]

[Edited on 22-1-2004 by feygan]



posted on Jan, 22 2004 @ 04:48 PM
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In the old days, before all the technology and hustle bustle, things were slower (appearing in retrospect).

If there was an issue, you would set down quietly in the evening to resolve it, after a day of toiling on the farm.

Now we are sensory overloaded, tv, work, school, entertainment.


We on a daily basis are processing so much more than just a hundred years ago.

If this were your PC, it would be the difference of running one small DOS app on win98 in DOS mode,

as opposed to running the same machine on winNT/XP with all the background apps running, antivirus scanners, opening about 50 browser windows, running seti, and another 10-15 misc apps.



posted on Jan, 23 2004 @ 08:29 PM
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tis indeed a very interseting story, your thought of speed can change very easiy i know as iv bee doing kung fo for 3 years now and sparing often for 2 years that you sence stuff, im 16 n weigh about 65 kg n iv been hit square on by a 110 kg 48 year old and was fine only because i knew i was going to get hit, even at that point or any point when im sparring i rarely think about the actuall fight im i hardly look at my opponent a bad habbit n does cause me getting hit abit but it does wonders in real lives reflexes, so measuring a single though is close to impossible in my books, measring simultanious thoughts also close to imposible because we do not know how many we are thinkin of at the time, good topic indeed. I dont think we will find out for a while for the fact that how can we understand something greated than oursleves? Indeed a good topic



posted on Jan, 23 2004 @ 08:47 PM
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The mind, if you look at as existing on the same physical plane as your body, would be travelling at the same rate as electricity as that is speed that your brain (in which we usually constitute as the 'mind') transmits a movement to your body. The molecules in your body however are vibrating at the speed of light, so I suppose you'd say the same about your mind.

The mind and body are separate entities. Your body is the car, you're driving it. Your nails and your hair grows, you cut yourself and a scar grows, that's your body doing something you have no control over; Most of the time to protect you. The body is a vessel. In real time your mind could be going at speeds we don't even know are possible. Id say its going at no speed at all though. I dont think you can measure it in terms of velocity.



posted on Jan, 24 2004 @ 02:55 AM
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About the comment on the twin paradox -

I think that if the mind exists outside physical boundaries (ie in another dimension or something), then it should be able to do all those things. The only reason we think in terms of time (this is referring to the whole speed thing) is that out physical body can only cope in a certain type of space and time. Since this is all we see and sense it is all we know. So, the mind has no time. I think it simply measures time to 'stoop' to the level of the body - which is based on a world in time and space.

It is said that we use about 10% of our brain at any one time. Does this include the conscious and unconscious? If it did, it could be said that the consious exists in two forms - that of its physical state (it uses a certain amount of the brain) and that of its nonphysical state - the state in which it is theoretically infinte. I guess I'm trying to look at the consciousness as being inside the mind, which is inside the body.

On the point of reaching into the 'I' to find the 'I' and the mental age stuff etc., I guess that's what you do in meditation - you shut off all thoughts and focus on, well, nothing. You age all the same, but your brain is working 10 times as fast.

But a question, what is up with multi-tasking? People say that girls can do it really well - does that mean that they have a larger percentage of their mind free than that of us guys? Or can they simply use that 10% more efficiently?



posted on Jan, 24 2004 @ 09:27 AM
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interesting how some people who have severe strokes which physically damage the brain, are able to 'remember' functions that are supposedly generated from the 'dead' part of the brain. perhaps the speech center, for example. perhaps sensation which was lost.
a holographic model of intelligence could account for this. a hologram is a shape to which light conforms. this indicates that the shape was there bEFORE the light.
i think of the brain as a radio reciever, and the mind as the signal.
and, i would venture that the mind is far beyond the speed of light, as i believe it is everywhere at once.
i love this thread. but, you already knew that.

[Edited on 24-1-2004 by billybob]



posted on Jan, 24 2004 @ 11:04 AM
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THERE IS A CONNECTION HERE...but its hard to explain...

~*~
EXCERPT: Einstein called it 'spooky action at a distance' Now NASA-funded researchers are using an astonishing property of quantum mechanics called 'entanglement' to improve atomic clocks---humanity's
most precise way to measure time

FULL STORY:
science.nasa.gov...

~?~
does this show, a projected thought, is instantaneous?
~!~

1 sec = 9192631770. cycles...for the scientific
1 sec = (..............?...............) for the philosopher



posted on Jan, 24 2004 @ 02:38 PM
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Feygan: Where the hell did you get it in your head that photons have no speed?

They don't move instantaneously, they move at 300,000 kilometers per second in a vacuum. It isn't instant jump from A to B, it is 300,000 kmps from A to B, with absolutely no interference in between.

Despite that, a thought to move your arm signals a synapse's fire, it sends an electronic pulse down your spinal chord to another nerve, where it branches, the main signal goes to your arm and all the rest go to the rest of your body, informing every bit of you that your arm is moving. Electricity moving through open connections moves at approximately 2/3rds the speed of light, this is slower.

As I said, reactions travel at roughly 60-80 kmps throughout your body, and 120-140 kmps in your brain.

About time 'slowing': Adrenaline is produced en masse when you feel fear and the need to react. It opens neural pathways and increases efficiency greatly. While undergoing massive adrenaline use, your blood is pumped faster by your heart, because your brain sends signals faster. During this time, normal body-reactions travel at 100-120kmps, and brain reactions are around 250kmps. You are literally maxed out. This causes time to 'slow down' because your brain is now reacting disproportionately fast as compared to your body, allowing you to analyze and percieve faster, while your body and things around you move at perfectly normal speeds.

About the dream lasting 3 minutes, but 3 days to the person dreaming: You can perform more operations/second than the worlds fastest super computers, you can perfectly visualize a world inside your head without lag or loading times. Your brain can also think of what someone says to you, example 'hello' in less than a nanoclick, while it takes approximately a second for us to say it aloud. You skip details you see as minor, IE, time's passage, or driving from A to B, or cleaning up, but you think, based on experience in real life, that it must have been done, so you fill your 'dream memory' with it, the result, in about 3 minutes of thought, you've accomplished 3 days of actions in your head!

It is all simple logic. Jesus.

Oh, A further note: You can learn to control adrenal releases. It is all about tricking your subconscious into 'needing' to get that boost. If you begin with large scale 'need' and work downwards, you can force yourself into it on command. I know of people building a martial art around this, partly because of the improved reaction time, and partly because of the fact that the faster and harder your neurons fire, the faster and harder your limbs move, so you can really deliver damage when it is needed. It is known as Lentation, and if it hadn't been for massive plagiarism, they'd still have their earlier manuals out on the net. They didn't invent it or anything, but they did practically develop and refine the command methods from square one. Greatly because of that, their methods have been seen as ineffective, but they find new ones constantly.

Oh, and the reason it isn't 'built in as a constant', adrenaline exhausts the body. It uses up massive amounts of energy, and it uses up massive amounts of nutrients and minerals, you only have a certain storage limit, then you'd run out. With practice and near constant use, that storage capacity expands, but it depends on what way you train it, and your natural 'way of thinking', some people take it slow, and end up with extremely long periods of minimal adrenal flow, giving extended slight enhancement, others end up with short bursts of massive adrenal flow, giving momentary blasts of self.

[Edited on 24-1-2004 by Viendin]



posted on Jan, 24 2004 @ 05:40 PM
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Originally posted by Viendin
It is all simple logic. Jesus.
[Edited on 24-1-2004 by Viendin]


did you read riffraffalunas' link? light ain't the fastest thing out/in there.



posted on Jan, 24 2004 @ 06:08 PM
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What if Consciousness resided on another higher Dimension?

Sorry, sounds a bit vauge. Do understand that My knowledge is limited in this area. Im just very curious.

Prevading all lower realms through different manifestations, per sa, Our dimension would manifest through our physical bodies.

Deep



posted on Jan, 24 2004 @ 09:34 PM
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Originally posted by billybob
did you read riffraffalunas' link? light ain't the fastest thing out/in there.


I now have, and really didn't need to.

I'm more than well acquainted with quantum entanglement, and no, it does not show instantaneous projected thought.

Quantum entanglement is quite a hard thing to achieve, and no more than 2 particles can be entangled with anything that could be thought of as 'ease', in order for you to think through means of entanglement, you would have to entangle hundreds of millions at every thought, the sheer energy required would be prepostrous!

We know how our thoughts cause actions. Take a biology class.

Photon hits baseball> electromagnetic instability causes new photon to be shot from baseball>Receiver in Eye gets changed atomically by photon > change signals electric pulse sent to brain > brain reacts, sends pulse out to spinal chord > pulse branches, arm moves>nerves in hand send pulses to chord>pulse moves to brain>You become aware that you've caught the baseball that was just thrown.

It isn't something instantaneous, or even the speed of light. It is approximately the times I have mentioned and it is basic knowledge!



posted on Jan, 24 2004 @ 10:03 PM
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Originally posted by ZeroDeep
What if Consciousness resided on another higher Dimension?

Sorry, sounds a bit vauge. Do understand that My knowledge is limited in this area. Im just very curious.

Prevading all lower realms through different manifestations, per sa, Our dimension would manifest through our physical bodies.

Deep


Excellent concept Deep. I believe that we, as spiritual entities, are separate from our physical bodies. Through dimensional matrices we are connected to the physical through our bodies. The Seeker Of mentioned earlier "The Now." I believe that is where the consciousness lies: (as you mentioned Deep), "a higher dimension" of experience.
Speed requires relativity based on geometry and movement (eg. the temporal dimension of time). If, as I believe, consciousness is separate from these, then speed is irrelevant. It is like asking "What is the speed of the Now?"


Excellent Thread. And I might add, some excellent posts by intelligent people on ATS. Keep it going.

Peace to ALL,

+Jammer



posted on Jan, 25 2004 @ 01:36 AM
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Originally posted by Viendin

Originally posted by billybob
did you read riffraffalunas' link? light ain't the fastest thing out/in there.


I now have, and really didn't need to.

I'm more than well acquainted with quantum entanglement, and no, it does not show instantaneous projected thought.

Quantum entanglement is quite a hard thing to achieve, and no more than 2 particles can be entangled with anything that could be thought of as 'ease', in order for you to think through means of entanglement, you would have to entangle hundreds of millions at every thought, the sheer energy required would be prepostrous!

We know how our thoughts cause actions. Take a biology class.

Photon hits baseball> electromagnetic instability causes new photon to be shot from baseball>Receiver in Eye gets changed atomically by photon > change signals electric pulse sent to brain > brain reacts, sends pulse out to spinal chord > pulse branches, arm moves>nerves in hand send pulses to chord>pulse moves to brain>You become aware that you've caught the baseball that was just thrown.

It isn't something instantaneous, or even the speed of light. It is approximately the times I have mentioned and it is basic knowledge!


you're like, ...so stuck in three dee, dude. contemporize! you are perfectly describing what happens to the body, the brain, and whatnot.
what you haven't described is consciousness, which is entirely removed from the reality of the autonomous functions of physical manifestation.
how does a flower 'know' to color itself so that bees will be attracted to it. how does a chameleon 'know' what patterns and colors to mimic? does it have eyes on it's belly? things just aren't that simple as a chain reaction. there is more to consciousness than body functions. everything that we see is the result of the consciousness of nature.



posted on Jan, 25 2004 @ 02:16 AM
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Consciousness for all intents and purposes is instantaneous, it is the order that binds all, a similar thing. Faster than light itself I think.



posted on Jan, 25 2004 @ 01:32 PM
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Ok firstly viendin I'll make an attempt to ignore your style of trying to attack others as "it's all just simple logic" so firstly look at the general topic, it's about the speed of something which as of yet can't even be defined by science let alone measured. Hense everything here is theory and far from "simple logic"

Next to adress where I came to conclude about photons having no speed.
Light at No Speed

The materialist metaparadigm assumes that space, time and matter are the primary reality. Both quantum theory and relativity suggest that light is even more fundamental. If so, then some of the difficulties science has with light may stem from our trying to treat light as if it were part of the material world.

Take, for example, the speed of light. As we have seen, for light itself, time and length both shrink to zero. From the photons point of view, it travels no distance, and takes no time to do so. It therefore has no need of speed.

Why then, does light appear to us to have a very definite speed?

When we observe a photon from our frame of reference, in a sense, we draw out the zero space and zero time of the photons frame of reference into a definite amount of space and a corresponding amount of time. If we are traveling close to the speed of the photon, we see a little bit of space and a little bit of time between its point of emission and its point of absorption. The slower we travel, the more space and time we observe the photon to have crossed.

If we observe the photon to have crossed space and time, then it appears to us to have a speed. But it is not really a speed at all. What we are observing is the ratio in which space and time manifest in our frame of reference. For every 186,282 miles of space that manifests, there always manifests one second of time. It is this ratio that is constant for all observers, however fast they are moving.


So as you can see (and would have done if you had not presumed to know all you need to, and read other peoples links) Light is made up of photons, so whatever the speed of light is also the speed of photons. "simple logic" Since light only has a speed relative to us and not to itself you will see that itself has no speed from its own perspective. It exists in a "nowness" only being at point A and B with no space (and therefor time) in between.
So yes from yours and my perspective a photon has a very definite speed, but if you were a photon you would have no speed form your own point of view.

As to using simple biology to measure thought??? ok yes you can tell me all about signals from the brain and arms etc, but how do those signals make me think "I think I'll pick up that over there and put it here as it looks nicer"? If your biology can explain that then I'll put your name forward for a Nobel prize.

Just so we don't get into a "I've done this and studied here" argument, I have no scientific background whatso ever, while this severly limits my knowlege it does give me one huge advantage against those who have. My unbiased nature, since I haven't learnt anything, I don't need to unlearn it to accept new ideas as possibilities.




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