Skeptic,

good points.

the reason I put this link up is really two things:

1. It was a voyager image from 1979
2. It was an image taken near one of the poles

thus, a differing area and timeframe where NASA could have been doing things differently?

Is the image legit? I have no idea.

but the sky hue vs the ground is not out of the bounds of human experience on earth, but valid for mars is annother issue.

Originally posted by ArchAngel
In the new image THE SUNDIAL IS CUT OUT!

Wonder why.............

Blessings,
Mikromarius

Originally posted by Kano
The ones NASA is releasing, basically.

Your analysis doesn't justify producing an image where any blue or green colors on the surface would be similarly distorted as they are on the calibration sundial.


Bob Clark

Originally posted by rgclark
Your analysis doesn't justify producing an image where any blue or green colors on the surface would be similarly distorted as they are on the calibration sundial.

Thats because the reason the sundial colors are distorted (as mentioned) is the pigments are designed to give different brightness patterns when viewed with the different filters. The actual blue and green channels from the sundial are still there, and can be seen if you combine just the L5 and L6 filters. So even if there was something blue/green on the surface that was extra bright in the near-IR range (very unlikely really) it would still be noticed.

Dr. Bell was kind enough to send me a graph of the spectra of the pigments used. I will post it after I get home from work tonight.

Three simple questions for Kano or someone else with knowledge about this:

#1 Why don't they simply send RGB images through space instead of several monocrome plates in the first place?

#2 I would also like to know how it is even possible to make blue become somewhat neon red without manipulating the plates extencively or using color filters in order to hide something?

#3 Why do they still rely on radio waves (which by the way shouldn't even work in zero gravity theoretically ) when we have laser technology which would make them capable of sending high quality RGB colored images back to Earth in notime?

As it looks to me, the blue hue has either been turned about 180 degrees rendering it in a slight sephia tone. Either that or the pictures have all been shot using a red-purple filter, then later tweaked in order to make the images somewhat believable. Or both. Atleast that is what my evidence points towards when calibrating the pictures to the original, now cutaway sundial in the panorama shot.

Blessings,
Mikromarius

[Edited on 20-1-2004 by mikromarius]

The blue is purple/red.. the green is nowhere to be seen..
Nice explaning kano but that still doesn't explain those horror methods of sending colors back to earth.. NASA heard of hdri?? (floating point format.. for bimbos - that means you can have a color like -- red : 98384 green : 12,567 blue : 0,001)
i want to have a hdri pic from mars for further diagnostics

nasa sux.. the more blue sky image from mars looks much more natural to me like those others....
too bad i'm very bad from space stuff.. does mars have atmosphere?? because theroeticaly if we know what stuff is in the atmosphere we would know what colour it has when lit by sun.

Originally posted by Kano

Originally posted by rgclark
Your analysis doesn't justify producing an image where any blue or green colors on the surface would be similarly distorted as they are on the calibration sundial.

Thats because the reason the sundial colors are distorted (as mentioned) is the pigments are designed to give different brightness patterns when viewed with the different filters. The actual blue and green channels from the sundial are still there, and can be seen if you combine just the L5 and L6 filters. So even if there was something blue/green on the surface that was extra bright in the near-IR range (very unlikely really) it would still be noticed.

Dr. Bell was kind enough to send me a graph of the spectra of the pigments used. I will post it after I get home from work tonight.

Thanks, but you know the question is whether the Martian sky really is blue. What would really be convincing re your argument is if someone took RGB filter images of Earth's blue sky only replacing the Red with a near-IR filter and found for example its color did not change, i.e., stayed blue. If on the other hand its color changed to reddish like Mars sky appears in the released NASA image then that would raise the possibility that using this near-IR filter to produce a visual light image really did change the color of the Martian sky and perhaps the surface as well.
I"ve heard there are digital cameras that can take images in the near infrared. So perhaps this is something someone can try.
Also, there really is no reason by this time NASA could finally release an image using the correct L4, L5, L6 filters that shows the calibration sundial and the Martian sky and surface.
Perhaps you could bring this point up with Drs. Adler and Bell when you talk with them.


Bob Clark

Originally posted by rgclark
Thanks, but you know the question is whether the Martian sky really is blue. What would really be convincing re your argument is if someone took RGB filter images of Earth's blue sky only replacing the Red with a near-IR filter and found for example its color did not change, i.e., stayed blue. If on the other hand its color changed to reddish like Mars sky appears in the released NASA image then that would raise the possibility that using this near-IR filter to produce a visual light image really did change the color of the Martian sky and perhaps the surface as well.
I"ve heard there are digital cameras that can take images in the near infrared. So perhaps this is something someone can try.

Indeed, but I imagine we would come up with the same problem of calibrating the exposure levels when trying to combine a near-IR image with the blue and green channel. Perhaps another way would be to find a spectral graph of the blue sky from earth. We could compare the brightness at 600nm with the brightness at 750, if one is greater than the other, then we will know by how much shifting the red channel would affect the color of the sky.

As far as showing the sundial, ground and sky in one shot, I don't think the angles allow for this, but the sundial does have its little mirrors on the sides, which show the martian sky.

Originally posted by mikromarius
#1 Why don't they simply send RGB images through space instead of several monocrome plates in the first place?

#2 I would also like to know how it is even possible to make blue become somewhat neon red without manipulating the plates extencively or using color filters in order to hide something?

#3 Why do they still rely on radio waves (which by the way shouldn't even work in zero gravity theoretically ) when we have laser technology which would make them capable of sending high quality RGB colored images back to Earth in notime?
[Edited on 20-1-2004 by mikromarius]

1. Its effectively the same thing. Plus theres no advantage to be had doing the processing on site when it can be done just as easily, and far better on earth.

2. Read the article, also see the new graphs sent by Dr. Bell.

3. Why wouldn't radio waves work in zero g? I don't think laser communications are advanced enough for this sort of application yet. Plus the NASA Deep Space network is already in place, why fix it if it aint broke.

today 21 january I am watching on this moment to live broadcast of mars update.. and they talk about the color of mars and that they don't know the exact color yet... this broadcast will be in a rerun until next update...



[Edited on 21-1-2004 by MarkLuitzen]

Originally posted by rgclark
Well the original panoramic image that created the controversy did show the surface and sky in the same shot with the sundial:

Ah sorry I was thinking of the individual pictures, the panorama's are mosaics, and yes I would suppose a mosaic with L4 L5 L6 channels will occur before the end of the mission.

The panorama shots do however take up quite a bit of the daily bandwidth. (Judging by the raw data folders). So I suspect such panoramas will be less and less frequent as Spirit gets its teeth into the work at hand.

(Or its 'whirling blades of doom' as it were )

Kano, Mars Opportunity is scheduled to land Friday.
Let's hope this time the first released panoramic image will show the calibration sundial and the Martian sky and surface using the correct visual light filters.


Bob Clark

I agree Bob, although I wouldn't expect the firsrt panorama from opportunity to not use the L2.

Yes but they are talking about calculating the exact colors. We can see for ourselves that there won't be a dramatic change. But using the equalized channels in the sundial shot still removes any tint given by the atmosphere, which wont be much, but is still relevant when we are looking for precise colors.

there's still a red balloon elephant in the room.