Underground Oceans

Very interesting John. Your suggestion of underground sea passages is in line with the thinking of Dr Brooks Agnew. He was on Coast to Coast AM on 16 February 2007 and this is the recap taken from their website:

'' Hollow Earth Expedition

In the first half of the show, physicist Brooks Agnew shared details about his upcoming expedition to the North Pole, where he hopes to learn whether or not the Earth is hollow. According to Agnew, current scientific data does not support the plate tectonic model, which theorises the Earth's crust floats atop a pool of magma around a solid core.

Agnew said the 100 man, 13 day expedition will be utilising a 450ft long, 23,000 ton nuclear powered Russian ice breaker ship, as well as specialised instruments to measure a ' depression ' in the ocean and changes in the properties of sea water that could point to the opening of the inner Earth. He suggested the opening may be as large as 80 to 500 miles across, but could be masked by the inhabitants who live there. Agnew said there are reports of at least 8 major races and 200 minor races living in the interior of the Earth ''

Dr Agnew also proposes that ALL planets are hollow. I think we are going to hear a lot more from this gentleman.

Regards,

Brian.

PS John , did you ever fly over the North Pole and if so did you see anything ' unusual ' ? I seem to recall my father mentioning to me in the 60's that the astronauts had reported seeing a hole at the North pole and had photographed it.

Sorry if I digress but underground oceans and hollow Earth do seem to tie in.

Originally posted by lonemaverick
So are any of you going to try and explain the fact that the area is approximately 3960 feet above sea level yet maintains its water level?

Okay, I'll have a go. Here's an analogy:
If you run water into a bathtub and fill it (even say halfway) and then have the plug partially open, you can maintain the level in the tub by running more water in to it at the same rate as the water runs out of it.

In other words, having a higher head in an inland lake than sea level does not deny the possibility that it has a connection to the sea, providing that: a) outflow of water is relatively limited and b) inflow of water more-or-less balances the outflow. Of course, with a lake, even an outflow of many cubic metres per second could be reasonably well balanced by inflow of a higher number of cu.m/sec (allowing for seasonal fluctuations in inflow and evaporation), so major changes in lake level would occur only over a relatively long period of time, rather than minutes or seconds in the case of a bathtub. However, where the inflow is affected significantly in a lake that has a subterranean outflow but has no significant surface outflow, then the lake level will drop at a faster level than should occur purely due to evaporation and human usage (ie pumping).

In response to the argument that under such conditions the lake could never have filled in the first place, we must allow for the fact that geomorphological effects could easily allow the depression to have been filled in the past and that since that time, further changes have created a situation which is near the analogous bathtub's "steady-state".

Regarding subterranean water sources, I recall reading (in the Guiness Book of Records) some years ago that the largest river in the world is one which flows beneath the Amazon and has about ten times the volume of that great river's flow capacity. So, I would not discard anything out of hand.

Is the region in question a "karst" area, meaning it is basically limestone? If so, then the chances of large chambers is quite high.

On another query, someone expressed concern that pumping oil could create empty subterranean/sub-marine floor spaces. Yes, clearly that would have to be the case -- otherwise there would be problems with sea water entering under pressure and causing problems with the oil's quality. One has to wonder that this is not discussed more openly and seems to be a no-go topic for oil companies. Sub-marine-floor drilling, especially in deeper water like is done around some parts of Indonesia, for example, could result in the sudden collapse of large sections of ocean floor...with catastrophic results such as massive earthquakes and tsunamis...

Does this ring any bells?

Doing a little searching on this story, I came across a guy named mel waters up in washington state. He claims in 1997 he bought some land that had a hole on it. this is now known in news story land as "mels hole"

The location is ellensburg washington and the story is fantastic. Mel claims the hole was known prior to his purchase and locals used it to dump dead animals, tires, refrigerators and anything else they wanted gone.

Mel reported he dumped old tv tubes down the hole and never heard the tubes hit or break on anything. He than drops 80,000 feet of nylon line down and still no bottom. Thats 15 miles of line dropped to no bottom.

Than the story takes a weird turn and old mel gets shafted. Anyway this fits right in with johns story of underground openings that maybe traveled by under sea vessels.

I also came across the sink holes of florida where they are filled with water and are numerous throughout florida state.

Originally posted by Icarus Rising

Were the Thresher and the Scorpion lost exploring these caverns? Do access tunnels reach from the Pacific to NUMC? Good questions. I know enough not to trust "official" stories and explanations anymore.

I believe that both the Thresher and Scorpion were lost exploring the ocean under California and Nevada. I don't know the details of their loss whether by disorientation or what.

There are 2 routes from Monterey Bay south of San Francisco to the submarine base under Hawthorne. I believe one is used for each direction, one going in and one coming out. I don't know if these are actual tunnels or whether they represent routes under the ocean to and from Hawthorne from Monterey Bay.

While I know nothing about any Navy activity in the desert, I actually am privy to some very interesting Navy base information in other "land-locked" areas.

Before I go further, John you know I am about as far from a "woo-woo" as you can get, having opposed you in every thread I have posted in. So this is coming from a guy that does not want to contribute to your delusions and paranoia (lol) but its late, the wine has kicked in, and I never thought this would come up in conversation (be it internet or real life)

It seems the Navy is one of the most mysterious branches of the military when it comes to base locations. The do indeed have bases all over the United States in places that just make you scratch your head. I never thought about it until I learned about a defense contractor here where I live developing some complicated guidance hardware/software for some sort of nuclear missile or torpedo system (probably torpedo). My father worked at the contractor as management for 15 years, and mentioned it to me. When I first got my drivers license, my mother would have me pick my dad up from work (we were a one car family, and she would drive him to work a couple of days a week so she could use the car for shopping, etc). On those days, I would drive by the miles of woods from the main road to my dad's work not thinking much about it. One day, on my way home dad mentioned that his company owned all that property we were driving past and that was where they had a lot of the field testing done. He pointed out some structures that you could just barely make out deep in the woods (it was winter at the time, no leaves on the tress, but they were still just barley visible). On subsequent trips to pick up the "old man" I would peer into the woods the best I could while driving to see what I could see. Some really weird buildings and towers was all.

One day, a few month later, I asked my dad more about what his company did for the military, and he seemed exited to tell me all I wanted to know on the way home. I do not remember much about the conversation, although I do remember him telling me that they had a very large underground water testing center, ran by the Navy, that was so large they had an entire nuclear submarine docked there to run tests with. At the time I envisioned a really large swimming pool with a miniature submarine floating around while a bunch of geeks took notes and such.

It was about a year later, I was 17, and on the way home I asked him about it again because I was thinking about purchasing a remote controlled model speed boat and wondered if I could use it in their pool, as long as I didn't bump into any Navy models. He laughed and we talked more about this facility and what they do there. I am starting to ramble, so I will just one liner what he told me:

1) that the "model" sub I imagined was really a full size, working nuclear submarine.
2) the place was big enough to undock the sub, and run it along the surface until it was out of sight.
3) it was deep enough for the sub to completely submerge, and it did so for up to a month or so during testing of some sort of components they did there.
4) that he had been down there and said the facility was so large you could not see the other end of it
5) that the facility was poorly lit (maybe that's why you couldn't see the other end of it, and the sub could travel until you lost sight of it, lol?)
6) the water was saltwater
7) fishing was no good down there (yes, I asked, lol)
8) the facility was classified, and he should not be telling me anything
9) the strange buildings I could hardly make out had nothing to do with the underground water testing facility, but rather some above ground testing of some sort of munitions guidance program (really have no idea what the hell he was talking about)

I swear, I'm not a woo woo (read my posts, I hate you guys, lol) but this is the truth as I understand it. My father has since past away, but I have met some of his co-workers before he died at the nursing home and we spoke about it in the cafeteria. They all backed up what he told me in a rather nonchalant manner. I was surprised at how casually they spoke of it, which made me think it was no big deal. I had forgotten about the whole thing until I read this thread and something clicked. just though I would post my information, have no idea if it is related to anything or not.

I live in Ohio.



man, I totally feel like a woo woo now. I have to go wash........

I asked myself now many times now why the hell do they bother with submarines if they have technology hundreds of years ahead and i believe they do.

They can do pretty much with their flying saucers or triangles or whatever they have.


Talk about submarines, i remember Phil Schneider in one of his speeches he was talking about a phoenix class sub going in series, which could go about 8000 feet deep and stay there a long time thanks to an alien improved material.

[edit on 10-9-2007 by Paul the seeker]

[edit on 10-9-2007 by Paul the seeker]

Ah, but in order to maintain their edge, that technology cannot be acknowledged, nor can it be made available to the general populace.

Also, in order to fund all those secret projects they need to have all the conventional craft and weapons projects to hide the funding. They need to keep the general populace busy and uninformed, misinformed, or outright confused. They need the whole structure of visible society to support them and their secret agenda.

Originally posted by Paul the seeker

I asked myself now many times now why the hell do they bother with submarines if they have technology hundreds of years ahead and i believe they do.

For just that reason.

Secrecy is like the layers of onion skin, intertwining, interweaving layer on layer on layer. No sooner to you get through one layer and you find ANOTHER layer. The layers are essentially endless.

Submarines are part of the cover like the cold war, or Mercury, Gemini, Apollo, all expensive scams to divert attention. Not the submarines themselves, but the technology and infrastructure that goes with it.

Forgive me if someone has already raised this, but can I just say one thing: San Andreas Fault

Either the fault isn't a plate boundary, and geologist are all ignorant idiots, or else any underground connection between Nevada and the Pacific is constantly moving, opening, closing and geologically impossible ....

You lot really should study basic geology before coming up with ideas like this


(I suppose though that earthquakes along the fault line might actually be caused by submarines accidentally hitting a rock outcrop in the sub-Californian ocean ... )

Originally posted by Essan
Forgive me if someone has already raised this, but can I just say one thing: San Andreas Fault

Either the fault isn't a plate boundary, and geologist are all ignorant idiots, or else any underground connection between Nevada and the Pacific is constantly moving, opening, closing and geologically impossible ....

You lot really should study basic geology before coming up with ideas like this

The San Andreas fault certainly exists due to slip between the Pacific plate and the North American plate and forms part of those two plates' boundary in the region, even though it does not form the entire boundary. There are many other fault lines as you know but San Andreas is considered the primary one. So, no real arguments there.

However, movement along the San Andreas fault is directly related to the rate of movement between the two plates that created it, and as the Pacific Plate is moving NW (relative to the Nth American plate) at an averaged rate of around 45mm per year (ie just under two inches), it means that in a century this slip rate results in a displacement of 4500mm, which for those who don't use metrics is about 10.5 feet.

Anyone reading this can confirm this info from various sources.

Ten and a half feet in a hundred years...Okay, so while the plates are from a geological standpoint "constantly moving" (at under two inches per year on average as I have said), your suggestion that the alleged subterranean passages are also constantly "opening, closing and geologically impossible" is one I cannot agree with, because your statement seeks to imply that the movement along this line is such that passages would open then close again so rapidly that no passages could exist for long enough to have been of use to humans during the last (say) fifty years. Any such passage that is large enough to admit the passing of a large submarine is not going to suddenly and completely close. Or, to be fair, if it did, then the resultant surface effects would have to be on the same scale, meaning a slip of such a magnitude that devastation along or near the line would approach totality. There has not been such a degree of movement along this fault line in the past century that would correlate with a sudden, total closure of such a passage: ditto the opening of a new one. One of the "advantages" of the San Andreas fault and the others in the region is that they do unlock and move quite regularly, in small increments. As we all know there are hundreds of micro quakes per day in that region, which would make using such (alleged) passages far more viable a proposition from a point of view of safety than if the plates basically "locked" then released at rather long intervals. Though not totally connected to this situation, a section of the Juan Fuca plate is of growing concern because it is locked and hasn't moved much since Jan 26 1700, the last time it "unlocked" -- and unleashed a mag 9+ quake and a huge tsunami. It's of concern because the recurrence interval for such events in that plate's troublesome region is around 300 years.

But I digress. My apologies...Back to the existence of passages. If they exist, and allowing for the slip between the two plates in question, it is possible that any such passages only opened during the last (say) few thousand years; it is also possible that they will completely close again in an equally relatively short period of time and either others (possibly not navigable) will open or none will exist at all of any significant size. But to assert they are geologically impossible? I'm sorry, I cannot agree.

I do agree, however, that a partial closure or major disturbance along the fault line could cause such changes to a passage that it would require a lot of extremely difficult engineering work to re-open it. Even a relative minor disturbance could also be catastrophic for any submarine that happened to be within it at the time.


[edit on 11-9-2007 by JustMike]

Sharp-eyed readers will have spotted an error: I should have written "Juan de Fuca" but left out the "de". Sorry about that. The area of concern with this lil' plate relates to the Cascadia Subduction Zone, which (relatively speaking) hasn't moved much since 1700 but which could "let go" at any time and cause similar effects to "The Tsunami" in Asia. This would be bad news for coastal dwellers from Oregon up to Washington and even beyond; worst for them because they'd be closest to the epicentre.

To tie this directly into the thread under consideration (and yes it is relevant), if the Powers That Be actually have methods to accurately predict earthquakes ahead of time then they will have no marine assets of great value in that area if they know a major subduction is imminent. And due to the "knock-on" effects, where one significant movement can possibly trigger others, they'd make darned sure that they have nothing in any subterranean passages either.

On the CT side, if they don't have any such methods then there could be some losses of assets that they will have to find a way to explain...

Originally posted by ignorant_ape

there are places in that area where all utility [ electric , water , telecom ] pipes and trunks have to be run above ground on specially designed wooden slipper rails - becvause if burried they would be fractured within months

also id there really is a sub sized chanel filled with water running throuigh the san andreas - what do you think the effect of a sizable quake [ M6.0+ ]would be on the water on that channel ?

I don't think they design these slipper rails for more than a few feet. Also I am not sure it is a 'channel' through which water runs. It may be a that a sea extends under California, Nevada amd possibly further east at depth that would be unaffected by the the plate movements.

i am not a gelogyst - but i predict that it would creat a VERY sizable wave travelling at hi speed down the passage

That might be a possibility if in fact there was a channel per se from Monterey Bay to Hawthorne and if the channel was not guarded by a breakwater of some sort.. It might be ocean part way, maybe tunnels or channels part way. I suspect it is a huge labyrinth of gigantic caverns. I also suspect that may be why the Scorpion and possibly the Thresher were lost, maybe through disorientation.

cue devastation when it his the alledged " sub base " at the hawthorne end

Yes, if, if, if. If the submarine base is under Hawthorne, Nevada, I'm sure who ever put it there knew exactly what they were doing and knew far more than we do about the geology of the earth.

I don't suppose we'll ever know the truth but thanks for your input, it is always welcome Ignorant_Ape.

Originally posted by Essan
Forgive me if someone has already raised this, but can I just say one thing: San Andreas Fault

Either the fault isn't a plate boundary, and geologist are all ignorant idiots,

Until quite recently they still scoffed at the idea that major asteroids/comets impacts in human lifespans but obviously they had to change their tune once Levy-9 smacked into Jupiter. That is bad enough but continental drift had them frothing at the mouths for a half century before they had to admit that... Scientist are just people who pretend to be more educated than the rest of us but on the whole they are no less human than the rest of us and frequently easier fooled than even the most ignorant among us.

or else any underground connection between Nevada and the Pacific is constantly moving, opening, closing and geologically impossible ....

But remember that they have a Defense budget in the billions so what does it matter if you have to spend a billion or more to 'fix' such tunnels every year or whatever?

You lot really should study basic geology before coming up with ideas like this

Sure and we will start when geologist do.

(I suppose though that earthquakes along the fault line might actually be caused by submarines accidentally hitting a rock outcrop in the sub-Californian ocean ... )

Or by the massive boring machines having 'accidents' or just running into things they should not be?

Stellar

Tried to edit my post but it wouldn't work. So okay, I wanted to add that I mentioned the risk/threat posed by the Juan de Fuca plate's "stuck" subduction zone, that last moved big-time on Jan 26, 1700. (The Japanese recorded details of the tsunami that came ashore as a result of it, which is how we know the date.)

When this subduction area lets go again (because it has to eventually), it could be an M9.0+ quake, with very sudden energy release, massive shockwaves and huge tsunami. As I said, the military would not want any assets nearby. To expand on they, I doubt they would want any assets inside a sub tunnel either as such a quake is so large it could do serious harm even at some range.

I hope that answers the question well enough. Best I can do without having any more specific details to go on.

I believe there are secret Naval bases in unusual inland areas, however it is a stretch to think there is an huge underground way of getting to the pacific from Nevada...but I do not doubt Nevada has naval base(s) somewhere.

Based of what I know and have heard in the past, there is a grain of truth to this whole thread. As usual the truth probably lies somewhere between remarkable and mundane.

Originally posted by johnlear
I believe that both the Thresher and Scorpion were lost exploring the ocean under California and Nevada. I don't know the details of their loss whether by disorientation or what.

Well, that's just amazing. The Thresher was stationed on the East Coast when it went missing. It was on a single-day test cruise and had on board many EDO officers (Engineering Duty Officers are skilled in shipbuilding; they don't command ships.) A friend of mine was a Commander at the time and an EDO. When he heard about the cruise he wanted to go along. He went to the Captain's (coulda been an Admiral. I forget) office to request permission to ride along, as many EDOs were doing. While in the waiting room outside he overheard a conversation the captain was having with someone else. They were laughing that his cruise was a joy ride and easy duty. My friend, close to promotion as a Captain himself, did not want to be seen joy riding, so he got up and left the office without asking for a ride.

The sub left port and went missing almost immediately. My friend was a liason officer assigned to help the families cope with the tragedy. He lost many a friend in the sub. I met him after this incident when he was a Captain at the Puget Sound Naval Shipyard in Bremerton. His wife got a job with a beltway bandit and then hired me to join her at Subase Bangor on Hood Canal where I worked with Trident material at both the Training and the Refit facility there. He, an Annapolis graduate, was seen as Admiral material, but he quit the Navy and went to work for Lockheed Shipbuilding as a vice president, retiring only recently. They are now back in the area.

The Tridents are huge--over 600 feet long, as big as a WWII battleship in length. Inside they are most amazing. They have to be huge because of their required girth, which is to accommodate the length of the Trident missiles. Amazing how they would fit in those passages.

NUWES: Naval Undersea Warfare Engineering Station in Keyport, Washington, is right next to Subase Bangor. (Indeed, Bangor was originally NUWES territory.) I drove by this facility twice a day for years going to and from work. I even shot off commercial fireworks for several years from the waterfront at the base; they sponsored a show always on July 2nd for the families. Its major role is in acoustic engineering. Its 'other name' is the 'Keyport Torpedo Station.' They test out torpedos in big vats, and sometimes fire them in Puget Sound. They have a real 'yellow submarine' they use for test purposes. It is the only command that does this sort of work. I can see why they would have a desert location--somewhere where the environment could be controlled.

Wonder how the Thresher got from the east coast to California in less than 24 hours. I once traveled across country in 72 hours. Although the top speed of the subs is classified, even rumor has them going about 50 tops.

By the way, the Navy's nuclear training facility, where they train both enlisted and commissioned in the operation of nuclear power plants, is located, of all places, in--Idaho.

[edit on 9/14/2007 by schuyler]