PROOF: Time is an ILLUSION!

Well stated. Liblam, just FYI, all of the reasons you give to prove that time doesn't exist, also proves that we truly don't understand it's nature. In otherwords, it may not exist, or it may be greater than we could possibly fathom. It is either nothing, or infinite, or both! I don't think it is impossible to be in the midst of an eternity as well. Just mt .02.

-P

Originally posted by mikromarius

Originally posted by lilblam
But we can NEVER have eternity behind us in the PAST, because that means we had to go through eternity to get WHERE WE ARE NOW.

Not so. Atleast not the way I see it. I have a couple of examples or theories, call it what you want. We have always discribed time through geometry, movement and a way to systemise. It's math. It's a tool for explaining what is infact unexplainable. We use symbols to define something which is invisible and untouchable. Try to look uppon time as a circle. Any point on that circle is a beginning and an end, a point which sums up eternity. Whether you call that point now, then or when is really not relevant. But my point is this: No matter where you stand in the circle of time, eternity is both ahead of you and behind you, for the Now is the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End. But eternity is relative if you speek of time as something absolute, like you just did when you called a span of time absolute. Eternity is relative to time just like a period is relative to time as a whole: an rather absolute and infact relative eternity. If eternity wasn't absolute in some aspects we simply wouldn't exist at all. For time is movement, developement, evolution, generation, degeneration and regeneration. Time exists. It's the type of eternity. The antitype of non-existance. It's what reminds us that we exist, if only for a short period of time. Each time. The same time. Anytime.......

Blessings,
Mikromarius

I have to agree that time is fake. I think time is just like 90% of the other things in the world. They are feel fuzzy happy things. All "time" is really good for is knowing when something is supposed to happen, like to watch something on tv. Otherwise its useless.

Originally posted by mikromarius

Originally posted by lilblam
But we can NEVER have eternity behind us in the PAST, because that means we had to go through eternity to get WHERE WE ARE NOW.

Not so. Atleast not the way I see it. I have a couple of examples or theories, call it what you want. We have always discribed time through geometry, movement and a way to systemise. It's math. It's a tool for explaining what is infact unexplainable. We use symbols to define something which is invisible and untouchable. Try to look uppon time as a circle. Any point on that circle is a beginning and an end, a point which sums up eternity. Whether you call that point now, then or when is really not relevant. But my point is this: No matter where you stand in the circle of time, eternity is both ahead of you and behind you, for the Now is the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End. But eternity is relative if you speek of time as something absolute, like you just did when you called a span of time absolute. Eternity is relative to time just like a period is relative to time as a whole: an rather absolute and infact relative eternity. If eternity wasn't absolute in some aspects we simply wouldn't exist at all. For time is movement, developement, evolution, generation, degeneration and regeneration. Time exists. It's the type of eternity. The antitype of non-existance. It's what reminds us that we exist, if only for a short period of time. Each time. The same time. Anytime.......

Blessings,
Mikromarius

But that means you can see the entire circle at the same time, without having to spin around it and only experience one point in the circle. Just zoom out and you see it all together. But that also means that time doesn't exist though doesn't it? If it did, then we're spinning on that circle of time forever. This means we've always been spinning on that circle, and had to spin around an infinite amount of times before we got to the current cycle we're in. But you can't spin infinity also.

That makes sense even if you're not thinking of time as a "line" but rather as a circle. Still, time must not exist. You can have loops and stuff but they are only from our perspective. From the perspective of any density above ours, they can see the entire circle at all times.

Originally posted by amantine
I mainly have a problem with the premis that says that there has been an infinity before us. This premis is empirically disproven. There is much evidence that suggests that the universe started with the Big Bang. We don't and can't know how (after the first 10^-43 second we know, but before that is a mystery) and why the Big Bang happened. It just did. I always like to look at it as Aristotle's unmoved mover. The thing that caused everything else without being caused itself.

The energy was created then, because with the Big Bang the rules for nature where created. One of those rules is that energy doesn't get destroyed or created.

Personally, I think time exists, but that there is no absolute time, only relative time. I think all processes are dynamic, they depend on change to exist. I agree with Heraclitus on this: "On those stepping into rivers staying the same other and other waters flow."

But you must admit, that Big Bang could not come out of nothing. Nothing doesn't have the RESOURCES needed to create a universe, or blow up for that matter. So Big Bang had to come out of something. It had no choice! If you had NOTHING, you cannot have it blow up into a universe. It means at least SOMETHING was there, and that means something was ALWAYS there. But that also goes right into my theory that if that's true, we cannot be here because infinity cannot be surpassed. Sooo time must not exist!

Does that make sense? I understand your point about the Big Bang, but do you see how it can't "bang" out of nothingness?

Originally posted by Eternal

So, before ANYTHING would ever be formed out of energy, energy would first WAIT FOREVER (NEVER STOP WAITING) before shaping ANTHING.

If energy waited forever than wouldn't it still be waiting? After all it was you who said that forever is never stop waiting.

But i have to say your agrument is very interesting and it makes you think.

[Edited on 21-1-2004 by Eternal]

That's what I mean! That's the whole point of saying that.
I just wanted people to ask that same exact question in their head, the one you wrote down. "Doesn't forever mean it'd still be waiting?"

Im not too sure on this but it is possible to get some thing out of nothing ever heard of the cashmier effect? or zero point enegry? Also quantam physics has shown that particals at the sub atomic level can borrow enegry from know where...can anyone back this up?

There was a young lady named Bright,
Who travelled much faster than light
She started one day
In a relative way,
And returned on the previous night

Your crazy, that'll never work

Originally posted by Merkeva
Im not too sure on this but it is possible to get some thing out of nothing ever heard of the cashmier effect? or zero point enegry? Also quantam physics has shown that particals at the sub atomic level can borrow enegry from know where...can anyone back this up?

There was a young lady named Bright,
Who travelled much faster than light
She started one day
In a relative way,
And returned on the previous night

No, impossible. It's not out of "nowhere", they simply don't know from where yet. And zero point energy isn't "energy out of nowhere".

lilblam, I said it before, and I say it again.

This is not a question of the existence of time, this is a question of the existence of god.

You calmly 'remove' god from the equation and you're given wonderfully simple results, time doesn't exist!

Drop Quantum Mechanics. We don't need them, they get Special Relativity all messy anyway, oooh, nice results.. but, wait. I can see that we're WAY off whenever we're calculating things less than 1,000 tonnes.. erhm... Maybe I should just drop Relativity, I can do it with Quantum Mechanics.. It shouldn't be that.. wait.. that's not what the earth weighs, or how it moves! Damn! Foiled again!

In Lamence:

g + e = t

God and Existence create Time. In any case, a lack of god requires infinite existence, existence has always existed in this case, therefore there is zero time, we can express this through

g + Inf = t, Inf - g = Inf, Thus g = 0, It may as well. therefore Inf = t, time is infinite and thus doesn't really exist.. uh, because we don't really 'get' infinity.

if g is set to infinity, then existence is allowed, in fact, any values of existence can work with any values of god, infinite existence can even work with a god, but we now have 3 unsolvable variables, and nothing to substitute with!

g + e = t
t - g = e
t - e = g

Ignoring god is nice, but in situations like this, where god is truly an unquestionably present variable that we cannot account for, we cannot simply ignore it and draw conclusions!

Also as previously stated, in any event, the possible fact that time is infinite does not mean that time is an illusion or does not exist. 1/Infinity is technically nothing, but there are infinite integers and 1 is still sitting there! Just like there could be infinite time but a second still passes, a minute still ticks by, and we, stuck in our finite minds in our finite lands with our finite lives, who cannot comprehend more than the notion of infinity, are forced to go the way of the schoolchild through an infinite diverging series!

1+2+3+4+5+6+7+8+9+10+11+12+13+14+15 ... does not equal infinity for humanity. We cannot just jump to 'the end' and say, ohp, infinity! We have to add it up.

1, 3, 6, 10, 15, 21, 28, 36, 45, 55, 66, 78, 81, 95, 110, ...

We are doomed to travel this way, and while speculation about a four dimensional being's thoughts on the subject are nice, that on its own is as questionable as god's existence, there might not be four dimensional beings looking down at us, laughing at our meagre concepts of time and space, and 'infinity', there might be, if you say you can assume there are and use it to help your theory, you must accept the fact of god's place in your 'conclusions', and you must see the major hole in your theory!

This is far from irrefutable, lilblam.

EDIT: Oh, and LAX, time is useful for a hell of a lot more than forcing you to lift your sorry ass out of bed each day to get to work or school, and a lot more than to get to a date on 'time', it isn't fake or fluffy, and it isn't a concept of man. It is something which through anthropological theory, must exist in a life supporting three dimensional universe. It is all-important. Time is Rule.

[Edited on 21-1-2004 by Viendin]

I agree that time has to exist. But if no human can grasp infinity does it really exist? think of it the same way as, if a tree falls down in the middle of a forest and nobody is around, does it make a sound?

That means that if god does exist and he believes in infinity then it exists, but since we created god, that means we also created infinity. But if god created the universe then who created god?

The universe? Oh wait, that hasn't existed yet. It's like the chicken and the egg. Except, god would have the 4th dimension on his side and could go back before the universe and blah...

It gets confusing after a while and you come to the conclusion that god cannot have created the universe becuase nothing could have created him. So there you have it, god could not have created the universe or time for that matter.

Eventually you come to the only conclusion, excluding god as creator, that the universe has always been here, and there has never been nothing.

Originally posted by lilblam
But you must admit, that Big Bang could not come out of nothing. Nothing doesn't have the RESOURCES needed to create a universe, or blow up for that matter. So Big Bang had to come out of something. It had no choice! If you had NOTHING, you cannot have it blow up into a universe. It means at least SOMETHING was there, and that means something was ALWAYS there. But that also goes right into my theory that if that's true, we cannot be here because infinity cannot be surpassed. Sooo time must not exist!

Does that make sense? I understand your point about the Big Bang, but do you see how it can't "bang" out of nothingness?

At t=0, spacetime itself is singular. The problem is that we don't know what happens then. There might be a process that we don't know that started the Big Bang. We can't say anything about what was before the Big Bang (if there was a before), because there is no information. All we know is that it did happen and apparently something can happen from nothing, although nothing is not the right word. Nothing usually means there is no thing in empty space. There wasn't even spacetime itself as far as we know. The 'nothing' didn't exist. It's more like something came, instead of something came from nothing. Just like Aristotle's unmoved mover.

The problem with your argument is that your theory is empirically untrue, for everything we see time happens. An explanantion of the universe without time would be really strange.

Jingles: A tree falling in the woods. For one, trees are living, aware beings. This has been proven several times. If you chop up a living cabbage in one room, and have an electrometer, or whatever those liedetectory things are hooked up to another one, in another room, then it'll go nuts. Then, if you send a series of people through the room, it'll behave normally for every one except you, the one who killed the other cabbage.

Apart from that, a 2 tonne plus object crashing to the forest floor would not be particularly heard by anyone, but that does not ruin its existence. It still sends a massive shockwave of air through the forest, blowing other small plants, moving and crushing things it hits as it falls, the soundwave itself sure as hell does exist, we just don't hear it. And I know, that ruins the question. And I know, that isn't what it means. It is a question of existence without consciousness, a debate I am taking part in in many places at the present.

Just the same though, infinity exists. We can keep making larger numbers, an infinity of them. We can keep making smaller ones, an infinity of those too. We have an infinite number of decimals in between any two of the infinite number of positive or negative integers. We might not be able to write out an infinity, but we sure as hell know that there is an infinity of a lot of things.

Right, and I didn't really get how you came to your conclusion that we created god..

God Creates Universe> Universe Creates Man > ?

Here's the nicker, this is a tree in the woods deal, if our consciousness is all that really causes existence, then yes, we created god and the universe, hence we are the real gods, and it is a cycle, but if our consciousness is not what created everything, then god made the universe, it made us, and we made pop'n'fresh.

errrrh, right, SCIENCE EXAM TIME!!!

Originally posted by Viendin
lilblam, I said it before, and I say it again.

This is not a question of the existence of time, this is a question of the existence of god.

You calmly 'remove' god from the equation and you're given wonderfully simple results, time doesn't exist!

Drop Quantum Mechanics. We don't need them, they get Special Relativity all messy anyway, oooh, nice results.. but, wait. I can see that we're WAY off whenever we're calculating things less than 1,000 tonnes.. erhm... Maybe I should just drop Relativity, I can do it with Quantum Mechanics.. It shouldn't be that.. wait.. that's not what the earth weighs, or how it moves! Damn! Foiled again!

In Lamence:

g + e = t

God and Existence create Time. In any case, a lack of god requires infinite existence, existence has always existed in this case, therefore there is zero time, we can express this through

g + Inf = t, Inf - g = Inf, Thus g = 0, It may as well. therefore Inf = t, time is infinite and thus doesn't really exist.. uh, because we don't really 'get' infinity.

if g is set to infinity, then existence is allowed, in fact, any values of existence can work with any values of god, infinite existence can even work with a god, but we now have 3 unsolvable variables, and nothing to substitute with!

g + e = t
t - g = e
t - e = g

Ignoring god is nice, but in situations like this, where god is truly an unquestionably present variable that we cannot account for, we cannot simply ignore it and draw conclusions!

Also as previously stated, in any event, the possible fact that time is infinite does not mean that time is an illusion or does not exist. 1/Infinity is technically nothing, but there are infinite integers and 1 is still sitting there! Just like there could be infinite time but a second still passes, a minute still ticks by, and we, stuck in our finite minds in our finite lands with our finite lives, who cannot comprehend more than the notion of infinity, are forced to go the way of the schoolchild through an infinite diverging series!

1+2+3+4+5+6+7+8+9+10+11+12+13+14+15 ... does not equal infinity for humanity. We cannot just jump to 'the end' and say, ohp, infinity! We have to add it up.

1, 3, 6, 10, 15, 21, 28, 36, 45, 55, 66, 78, 81, 95, 110, ...

We are doomed to travel this way, and while speculation about a four dimensional being's thoughts on the subject are nice, that on its own is as questionable as god's existence, there might not be four dimensional beings looking down at us, laughing at our meagre concepts of time and space, and 'infinity', there might be, if you say you can assume there are and use it to help your theory, you must accept the fact of god's place in your 'conclusions', and you must see the major hole in your theory!

This is far from irrefutable, lilblam.

EDIT: Oh, and LAX, time is useful for a hell of a lot more than forcing you to lift your sorry ass out of bed each day to get to work or school, and a lot more than to get to a date on 'time', it isn't fake or fluffy, and it isn't a concept of man. It is something which through anthropological theory, must exist in a life supporting three dimensional universe. It is all-important. Time is Rule.

[Edited on 21-1-2004 by Viendin]

I have a question.. what are you talking about? You're saying my theory is flawed because I didn't include God in the picture? And where would you like to put him? I don't understand exactly what you're getting at... what part of my theory is flawed? g + e = t? Where did you come up with that one? 1/Infinity IS nothing. There is no 1 sitting anywhere left. It means 0. You'll never get to the 0.0000.....1. You'll never ever see the 1, it'll always be infinity of 0's away. Just like 1/0 = infinity. Yup, dividing by 0 just gives you infinity, it's just because your calculator/computer has no concept of "infinity" since it's not a number, it gives an error. Dividing by infinity gives you a 0, but again, computers have no such concept as infinity.

So I'm not sure exactly what you are saying. Could you reiterate? Or specify? What exactly is wrong with what I said at the beginning of this thread?

Originally posted by MrJingles
I agree that time has to exist. But if no human can grasp infinity does it really exist? think of it the same way as, if a tree falls down in the middle of a forest and nobody is around, does it make a sound?

That means that if god does exist and he believes in infinity then it exists, but since we created god, that means we also created infinity. But if god created the universe then who created god?

The universe? Oh wait, that hasn't existed yet. It's like the chicken and the egg. Except, god would have the 4th dimension on his side and could go back before the universe and blah...

It gets confusing after a while and you come to the conclusion that god cannot have created the universe becuase nothing could have created him. So there you have it, god could not have created the universe or time for that matter.

Eventually you come to the only conclusion, excluding god as creator, that the universe has always been here, and there has never been nothing.

Yup there has never been nothing, but also there has never been nor ever will be "time". If time exists in any shape, way, or form, we then have to have eternity, forever, a never-ending road behind us in the past. So to be where we are, we HAD TO go through all that infinity behind us, we HAD no choice... unless there is no time...

Even given a time machine that can jump through time, we cannot HOP over infinity lol. It'd be an infinite hop, we'd be hopping for eternity as well. You can only rurpass/overcome/get through an infinite amount of anything. (I'm trying to leave math out of this, as I am bad at math and will undoubtedly confuse myself, and other people, so I use logic with words instead, it's just as good!).

Originally posted by amantine

Originally posted by lilblam
But you must admit, that Big Bang could not come out of nothing. Nothing doesn't have the RESOURCES needed to create a universe, or blow up for that matter. So Big Bang had to come out of something. It had no choice! If you had NOTHING, you cannot have it blow up into a universe. It means at least SOMETHING was there, and that means something was ALWAYS there. But that also goes right into my theory that if that's true, we cannot be here because infinity cannot be surpassed. Sooo time must not exist!

Does that make sense? I understand your point about the Big Bang, but do you see how it can't "bang" out of nothingness?

At t=0, spacetime itself is singular. The problem is that we don't know what happens then. There might be a process that we don't know that started the Big Bang. We can't say anything about what was before the Big Bang (if there was a before), because there is no information. All we know is that it did happen and apparently something can happen from nothing, although nothing is not the right word. Nothing usually means there is no thing in empty space. There wasn't even spacetime itself as far as we know. The 'nothing' didn't exist. It's more like something came, instead of something came from nothing. Just like Aristotle's unmoved mover.

The problem with your argument is that your theory is empirically untrue, for everything we see time happens. An explanantion of the universe without time would be really strange.

Well first of all, nothing is NOT empty space. Space is something! Nothing just means ZERO = 0. Can you multiply/divide do anything to 0 to get any other number? All you can do is ADD something (but that means it comes from somewhere else, which WAS always something). So if there was ONLY 0 and NO OTHER NUMBERS, could you suddenly get a whole friggin universe out of 0? No... and sorry to bring math into this, but maybe that'll make more sense.

Now, I'm not saying we ever knew WHAT was before the Big Bang, but we can be pretty damn sure it was not absolutely NOTHING or 0. Plz don't get tripped up on the meaning of words, nothing doesn't imply or usually mean anything... it's just nothing. Space is something! Light it something! Energy is something! Consciousness is something! Thought it something!

And when you said "something came" instead of "something came from nothing", that's exactly the same thing. Something comes from either of 2 things: Nothing, or Something. Since it cannot come from nothing, it has to be something. Unless, it NEVER came out of anything, and time doesn't exist at all. That means whatever is, always was, always is, always will be.

My thery is observationally false. We observe, experience, and live in a world that seems to be closely linked with time. It all flows in seemingly one direction, from future into the past. But such is OUR perception.

As someone else on this thread has mentioned, pretend time is a circle. We are going around on that circle and can only see the spot of the circle we're on. But someone else can look at the whole circle, and see everything on it at the same time. We're like a rollercoaster... can only sit on that big thing and go where it goes, but people from the ground can see the entire track in front of us and before us.

There is NO such thing as time!

Originally posted by Viendin
Jingles: A tree falling in the woods. For one, trees are living, aware beings. This has been proven several times. If you chop up a living cabbage in one room, and have an electrometer, or whatever those liedetectory things are hooked up to another one, in another room, then it'll go nuts. Then, if you send a series of people through the room, it'll behave normally for every one except you, the one who killed the other cabbage.

Apart from that, a 2 tonne plus object crashing to the forest floor would not be particularly heard by anyone, but that does not ruin its existence. It still sends a massive shockwave of air through the forest, blowing other small plants, moving and crushing things it hits as it falls, the soundwave itself sure as hell does exist, we just don't hear it. And I know, that ruins the question. And I know, that isn't what it means. It is a question of existence without consciousness, a debate I am taking part in in many places at the present.

Just the same though, infinity exists. We can keep making larger numbers, an infinity of them. We can keep making smaller ones, an infinity of those too. We have an infinite number of decimals in between any two of the infinite number of positive or negative integers. We might not be able to write out an infinity, but we sure as hell know that there is an infinity of a lot of things.

Right, and I didn't really get how you came to your conclusion that we created god..

God Creates Universe> Universe Creates Man > ?

Here's the nicker, this is a tree in the woods deal, if our consciousness is all that really causes existence, then yes, we created god and the universe, hence we are the real gods, and it is a cycle, but if our consciousness is not what created everything, then god made the universe, it made us, and we made pop'n'fresh.

errrrh, right, SCIENCE EXAM TIME!!!

You forgot one little part - so who made God? If he ALWAYS existed, then he'd never make us if time does exist, it'd take him eternity before he decided to make anything. Unless God is timeless, which means time does NOT exist! And if he is timeless, he cannot CREATE anything because if time doesn't exist, there is no such thing as Creation. There is only being. If something "comes into being" and time doesn't exist, then that thing ALWAYS WAS.

That takes points away from God right away, as he couldn't create anything without time. Sorry God, you struck out. And this is just one of many reasons (that I won't go into as I've done this already on different threads) why God fails miserably in his existance.

Why not picture a scenario like this...

There was Consciousness, and Time never existed. There were different densities of Consciousness, each density corresponding to a different perception of that consciousness. Some densities had a linear perception, and could be manipulated to think that there was such thing as time (We were physically altered, genetically for that to work). Those same densities then were told (by another density) that there's a God who created them. It would ONLY make sense to the density of linear perception, very limited consciousness, and who were tricked into seeing time, because a density that doesn't perceive time, knows very well that NOTHING ever created them, they always are. God would be the silliest, dumbest thing they've ever heard.

BUT not for humans! Oh nooo... humans are easily fooled into worship. So who are we REALLY worshipping? Well who do you THINK would masquarade as GOD for our little linear perception? Anyone who's one density above us, and beyond, who feels like it, that's who. The same way we herd cows and chickens, do consume them. This is just a food chain, and we're NOT by any means on top. We're being herded, and just like the cows have no idea about WHY they are being herded, neither do humans.

Does this mean we're worshipping some 4th density Alien who, along with his timeless buddies, came to us humans in one of our "time periods" (really easy for him to do) and told us things about the future, about us, and then told us to worship or burn in some eternal damnation? Well, a bunch of primitive little humans, as always (on all other 3rd density worlds, almost, this trick easily is performed and works well.) we fell for it, and created religions and built Churches in the name of those who came from the sky, who called themselves God and his Angels. Don't forget, they KNEW our future, as they see all of our time because they created it for us, to keep us in linear thinking and ignorance. Those who are amazed by prophecies and think they can only come from God, are really REALLY mistaken. They don't realise there is no time, and that this is all an illusion imposed on us by our "masters" from another density. What's so hard to believe about that?

Of course, they did the same thing (the religion thing) all over the planet, and must've changed their story just a little bit... to make sure people think that others around the world do not worship the right God. They also made sure to say specifically in EACH RELIGION that ANYONE who worships something DIFFERENT THAN YOU is a heathen, is a Satan-worshipper, a liar, and MUST be converted or MUST die.

Well what do you think happens next? Endless wars and struggles. As it did. Why? The energy feeds our 4th density buddies.

Now doesn't that make a whole lot more sense than actually believing that it was some God and his Angels who showed up and said all that (c) they said? Honestly? Do you think the universe is THAT SIMPLE that some Creator merrily created it because he was bored with playing with himself, and we all get one life, then we die and go to some Heaven forever? (Or Hell)?

Can people be MORE gullible?


[Edited on 22-1-2004 by lilblam]

Let me ask this then, and I hope I word it correctly.

If time is an illusion, does that mean that I can be 'faster' than other people?

for example, a minute for me would be an hour for someone else?

if there is no time, then wouldn't it mean that there are no boundaries? meaning anyone can be as 'fast' as they want to be?

like, an example would be like the Matrix.. when Neo realizes that it's not 'air' that he's breathing, he pushes the boundaries.

This is a great topic BTW.

Originally posted by quintar
Let me ask this then, and I hope I word it correctly.

If time is an illusion, does that mean that I can be 'faster' than other people?

for example, a minute for me would be an hour for someone else?

if there is no time, then wouldn't it mean that there are no boundaries? meaning anyone can be as 'fast' as they want to be?

like, an example would be like the Matrix.. when Neo realizes that it's not 'air' that he's breathing, he pushes the boundaries.

This is a great topic BTW.

Yes, you can. But you don't know how yet. No worries, soon you will, if you really want to know.

"You think that's air you're breathing now?" -Morpheus

"You think that's TIME you're experiencing now?" -Me.

Originally posted by lilblam
Well first of all, nothing is NOT empty space. Space is something! Nothing just means ZERO = 0. Can you multiply/divide do anything to 0 to get any other number? All you can do is ADD something (but that means it comes from somewhere else, which WAS always something). So if there was ONLY 0 and NO OTHER NUMBERS, could you suddenly get a whole friggin universe out of 0? No... and sorry to bring math into this, but maybe that'll make more sense.

Now, I'm not saying we ever knew WHAT was before the Big Bang, but we can be pretty damn sure it was not absolutely NOTHING or 0. Plz don't get tripped up on the meaning of words, nothing doesn't imply or usually mean anything... it's just nothing. Space is something! Light it something! Energy is something! Consciousness is something! Thought it something!

And when you said "something came" instead of "something came from nothing", that's exactly the same thing. Something comes from either of 2 things: Nothing, or Something. Since it cannot come from nothing, it has to be something. Unless, it NEVER came out of anything, and time doesn't exist at all. That means whatever is, always was, always is, always will be.

My thery is observationally false. We observe, experience, and live in a world that seems to be closely linked with time. It all flows in seemingly one direction, from future into the past. But such is OUR perception.

As someone else on this thread has mentioned, pretend time is a circle. We are going around on that circle and can only see the spot of the circle we're on. But someone else can look at the whole circle, and see everything on it at the same time. We're like a rollercoaster... can only sit on that big thing and go where it goes, but people from the ground can see the entire track in front of us and before us.

There is NO such thing as time!

There is a difference between something came from nothing and something came. The first implies that there was the 'nothing' before the something came. To stay with your math game, there never was a 0; the Big Bang happened and there suddenly was something.

Your theory is false on another point. What will happen to us in the future can not and is not defined. We can't predict the future, because the elemental particles have uncertainty of location and movement. We can't measure their direction and location absolutely precise at the same time. Because small changes now can mean enormous changes in the future, we can't predict the future.

I was also wondering, do you mean with seeing time as a circle that time repeats itself? There is a certain (unprovable) cosmological theory that the universe is cyclic. It expands, contracts, has another big bang and expands again.

Okay, settle down there lilblam, first off, lets get back to 'reality', and use the word 'dimension' rather than 'density', because density means the amount packed into a specific space, if they are higher densities then they're the same as us.. but, well, heavier. If you mean the consciousnesses are more dense, then just say 4th Dimensional beings, rather than density.. its annoying.

Now, I'm going to ask you not to make 6-7 points per post, because you based the last 5-6 on the first 1, which had a serious flaw, which you even bring up outside of that point.

You forgot one little part - so who made God? If he ALWAYS existed, then he'd never make us if time does exist, it'd take him eternity before he decided to make anything. Unless God is timeless, which means time does NOT exist! And if he is timeless, he cannot CREATE anything because if time doesn't exist, there is no such thing as Creation. There is only being. If something "comes into being" and time doesn't exist, then that thing ALWAYS WAS.

Okay, this is the first point you made, and it is FULL to the brim with holes.

If he ALWAYS existed, then he'd never make us

? This makes no sense, even when combined with

if time does exist, it'd take him eternity before he decided to make anything.

If he always existed, apparently he'd never make us, now, if he's outside of time, and always existed to those within time, then he could at any point in our time, 'make' us. If time does exist, there's no reason it would take him an eternity to do anything. He could do it in any amount of time, there is no law saying that inside an eternity or an infinity there is no single part.

As I've said before, there are infinite integers, but integers still exist. So do decimals. The fact that there is an infinity between 1 and Infinity does not mean that there is an infinity between 1 and 1.01.

Unless God is timeless, which means time does NOT exist! And if he is timeless, he cannot CREATE anything because if time doesn't exist, there is no such thing as Creation.

If God is timeless that does not mean that time does not exist. It means god is unaffected by time. If I were timeless, it would not mean time stops for everyone and everything, it would mean that it stops for me. If you are mindless, then you no longer have a mind, it does not mean everyone on earth loses theirs too! Apart from this, God would almost definitely exist outside of time. It is like a river, and he has a boat. We, the fish, are caught in the current, the river goes around the earth, and God can snip-snap teleport himself to any point, and affect us! That's the point of God! He can do anything!
There is only being. If something "comes into being" and time doesn't exist, then that thing ALWAYS WAS.
That just does not make sense. If something just appears, and time doesn't exist, then the thing cannot have been something forever, because forever is a concept of time.

And now, jesus lilblam, you think you are any less gullible for believing that you are going to ascend your physical body and move into the next dimension with a bunch of hippi #tards just because you want a change? Get a grip man, thinking it will happen and trying to convince others it will doesn't make it happen. It is a sick cruel joke being played on you. There is no dimensional shift about to happen. It is the psychosis of a generation. There were cars, then planes, then a major war, then technology started, then the world ground to a halt, then it started up again with another major war, then we had nukes, then computers, then we were in space, and there was another war, and the government was brought to its knees, then the personal computer, then the internet, 2 wars in iraq, major attacks in the US, it is an entertainment form. Just like a person who watches a bunch of action movies in a row will want to see big action in the next movie they see, we have experienced major changes in the last century, and we expect more. An earth-changing event, something new, terrible or great, but hoping that it is that we ascend to a new reality is not the best way to see your hopes fullfilled! Hope for the creation of a subspace engine, hope for the answer to the questions of life, hope for world peace, hope for clean energy, hope for something that makes sense! It is like choosing to try and win the lottery, or to get a good job, you can slack off and have your life suck and never win that lottery, but you can work hard and ensure yourself that awesome job.

[Edited on 22-1-2004 by Viendin]