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Originally posted by specialasianX
I'm not sure if i'd be ready as yet... alot of my friends are convinced they will be 'upgraded' into the fourth density... now i understand the 4th density and all (i.e the concept of time not exsisting) but something insde me tells me i have more to learn about this density first...
Originally posted by DeltaFive
Cool, more stuff to talk about =)
Simple. First of all, you'd have to assume that the CREATOR has been around forever, because HE HIMSELF could not come out of nothing, without some other CREATOR creating him, correct? If there is NO creator and just NOTHING, a GOD could not all of a sudden pop out of NOTHING. So we now know he'd have to be eternal. Fine.
The problem with this response is that you are trying to apply notions from our universe - mainly time - and apply that to an entity OUTSIDE our universe. You are assuming that time exists outside our universe. However, science shows that time is merely a product of our universe - time wouldn't exist outside it. Therefore, you can't apply terms such as "eternal" and "before" and "suddenly" to an entity/creator that would be outside the bounds of the time we experience! Also, saying something could not come from nothing assumes time exists, and is also applying rules we experience in our universe to a diety OUTSIDE these rules. Maybe even logic is a construct of this universe?
The main problem with the argument is you are saying that God and creator must exist in time. However, time is merely a product of our universe. This is shown in the general theory of relativity - there is no such thing as ABSOLUTE time, as it is relative to the observer. Someone approaching close to the speed of light will experience less time than an observer standing still. Time is merely a part of our universe - a creator/diety would be outside these laws ! Again, using terms such as "before", "infinite", or that God is "eternal" is not accurate, because God or a creator would obviously be outside the law of time, just as he is not affected by the laws of gravity or any physical laws. Terms such as before, infinite, eternal could not apply to a being outside the realm of time.
Interesting discussion =)
Originally posted by lilblam
First, let's assume time DOES exist, since we can all observe it so well, and then we will get to our conclusion that in fact, it does NOT exist.
If time exists, let's see what we know about time. It goes from the PAST into the FUTURE as we observe motion around our universe. We do observe that it may slow down, and we have theories that we can even STOP it if we reach light speed. NONE OF THAT CONTRADICTS MY PROOF! Now remember, even if you have a time machine, this proof still absolutely HOLDS and no time machine can violate it.
How old is the universe? Well our current universe is shaped out of energy, which might not be so long ago (Big Bang, whatever it was that shaped this universe). So how old is the energy then? It is exactly INFINITY years old (remember, we're assuming time exists for now). Why has it been around forever? Simple...
You can never get SOMETHING out of NOTHING. If there was ever NOTHING, there would ALWAYS be NOTHING. Because there is SOMETHING, that means there has always been SOMETHING. Don't forget, NOTHING means NOTHING/ZILCH/ZERO/NADA/BLANK, and doesn't mean a LITTLE BIT OF SOMETHING! Don't trip up on the words please.
Now we know that energy (out of which everything is formed) has been around forever. But then how does time not exist you ask? Well, because if time exists, then WE cannot exists, and in fact NOTHING would ever exist! Why? Simple... (here's the logical part, put on your thinking hats!)
If everything has been around forever, that means we have eternity behind us in the past, and eternity in front of us in the future. But we can NEVER have eternity behind us in the PAST, because that means we had to go through eternity to get WHERE WE ARE NOW. There's only one problem with that. WE CAN NEVER go through eternity. Eternity, simply means FOREVER. It means NEVER ENDS. That's right, we would first have to wait FOREVER before we could reach ANY TIME PERIOD. Because no matter what time period you are in, there will ALWAYS be eternity in the past, since we already know that energy had no beginning.
So, before ANYTHING would ever be formed out of energy, energy would first WAIT FOREVER (NEVER STOP WAITING) before shaping ANTHING. That's right, this means nothing could ever exist, as long as there is infinity of time behind it in the past. There CANNOT BE infinity of time behind us in the past, we can only wait a FINITE amount of time before being shaped out of energy or being located at ANY time period.
What does it all mean? It all means that time doesn't exist.
So let's wrap it up...
If time exists, then we know for a FACT that energy is eternal.
If energy is eternal, we must have eternity behind us in the past.
But we cannot have eternity behind us, because we can never GO THROUGH eternity to get where we are.
Because eternity means NEVER ENDS, so we'd STILL BE WAITING before being created out of energy.
By we I mean ANYTHING, so NOTHING would ever exist, it'd first have to wait eternity before it can be shaped.
As you can see, time cannot exist. If it does, nothing else can ever exist. There is absolutely NO TRICK in what I just said, and I am beind absolutely serious.
Why do we have the perception that time exists? That's a good question.. but I won't answer it in this thread, because perception CAN be an illusion. What we PERCEIVE has NOTHING to do with REALITY. We cannot perceive ultraviolet light, but our instruments prove it is real. We CAN perceive lifelike hologram that may appear real, but we KNOW is not. So once again, perception is NOT something to rely upon for "reality check".
ALSO, and I cannot back this up (yet), many members of ATS have informed me that physicists now are having problems including time in their formulas, and are getting rid of it left and right. Also, apparently it has been demonstrated that everything is an illusion in physics also, but I cannot back THAT up as well - look it up and see if that's true.
What I CAN back up is that time does not exist. That's ONE illusion I know for a FACT is an illusion.
Originally posted by lilblam
But we can NEVER have eternity behind us in the PAST, because that means we had to go through eternity to get WHERE WE ARE NOW.
So, before ANYTHING would ever be formed out of energy, energy would first WAIT FOREVER (NEVER STOP WAITING) before shaping ANTHING.