Originally posted by DeltaFive
Cool, more stuff to talk about =)
Simple. First of all, you'd have to assume that the CREATOR has been around forever, because HE HIMSELF could not come out of nothing, without
some other CREATOR creating him, correct? If there is NO creator and just NOTHING, a GOD could not all of a sudden pop out of NOTHING. So we now know
he'd have to be eternal. Fine.
The problem with this response is that you are trying to apply notions from our universe - mainly time - and apply that to an entity OUTSIDE our
universe. You are assuming that time exists outside our universe. However, science shows that time is merely a product of our universe - time
wouldn't exist outside it. Therefore, you can't apply terms such as "eternal" and "before" and "suddenly" to an entity/creator that would be
outside the bounds of the time we experience! Also, saying something could not come from nothing assumes time exists, and is also applying rules we
experience in our universe to a diety OUTSIDE these rules. Maybe even logic is a construct of this universe?
The main problem with the argument is you are saying that God and creator must exist in time. However, time is merely a product of our universe. This
is shown in the general theory of relativity - there is no such thing as ABSOLUTE time, as it is relative to the observer. Someone approaching close
to the speed of light will experience less time than an observer standing still. Time is merely a part of our universe - a creator/diety would be
outside these laws ! Again, using terms such as "before", "infinite", or that God is "eternal" is not accurate, because God or a creator would
obviously be outside the law of time, just as he is not affected by the laws of gravity or any physical laws. Terms such as before, infinite, eternal
could not apply to a being outside the realm of time.
Interesting discussion =)
I think you might've missed my point...
I just started out saying that to get a few things clear that even if TIME did exist, God could still never CREATE anything.
Then, I asked, can GOD exist if TIME does NOT exist at all? And I then proceeded to demonstrate that no, sadly (boo-hoo
) he can't!
Why? Because when there is no time, there is no creation. When you CREATE something, it means it didn't exist BEFORE you created it, and only exists
AFTER it has been created. But because there is no time, NOTHING can be created, and everything always is. Therefore, GOD cannot be CREATOR GOD as
without TIME there is no CREATION!
Does that make sense? That's all I was trying to say...
So if there is no CREATOR, what possible reason would there BE for God to exist? If he cannot Create ANYTHING, nor can he interfere with anything (as
that would violate free will), what other attributes could you possibly apply to him? That also means we exist independent of HIM, since he could not
possibly have created us, as creation is impossible without time. Then he is no longer God! He is just everything that exists, just an overlying
consciousness that permeates everything, and IS everything. So why would you WORSHIP everything? Since he is also you, you'd have to worship
yourself, and the rock in front of you, and your gay uncle.
The idea of God as a "separate, all powerful entity that Created the Universe" cannot exist without TIME.
But let's go in a different direction. Let's say my "proof" that time doesn't exist isnt' really a proof and time DOES exist... let's try that
Fine, God exists, and time exists. Well that means HE pre-existed the universe, and created it out of nothing. The problem STILL exists with the fact
that he could NOT be around forever before he created the universe (since time exists in this example, FOREVER also exists). So that means GOD cannot
be eternal, if time exists. If he's not eternal, someone else had to create him. But you can go back in that chain VERY FAR but there will be a big
problem. First, the chain of creation cannot be infinite if time DOES exist, because we already know that infinity cannot be reached nor surpassed, it
never ends. Second, if it is NOT an infinite chain of creation, then that means someone had to come out of nothing.
The fact that SOMETHING cannot come out of NOTHING is a concept that only works if time works. But the problem is, that means God cannot exist even if
time does exist as he cannot be A) Infinite and B) Created out of nothing.
If time does NOT exist, he cannot A) Create, as create is a time-based concept and B) Exist separately from everything else, since he is "part" of
it all, because if he was separate that means he doesn't exist. Since there is EVERYTHING, then God must be part of the EVERYTHING. There can't be
EVERYTHING, and then there's God, for the reasons I have shown above.
I REALLY hope to "God" that all that made sense lol. Just think really really hard on these concepts, they will be your every-day 4th density