Allah is NOT Some Pagan Moon God

reply to post by Sun Matrix


And you understand prophecy? The evidence is mighty slim.

I chose instead to listen to the quiet voice of God inside my own heart.

I already know what your response will be... that I am deluded and that only you understand the truth.

Fat chance.

Originally posted by Sun Matrix

Hi Queenie,

This might just be the root of one of your problems.......as I can assure you the Koran is nothing like the Old and New Testament.

Yeah, the Koran is very similar to the Old Testament.It has the same stuffy, stiff approach to spirituality... All of the Abrahamic religions do.



[edit on 4-9-2007 by SpeakerofTruth]

Originally posted by grover
reply to post by Sun Matrix

 

And you understand prophecy? The evidence is mighty slim.

I chose instead to listen to the quiet voice of God inside my own heart.

I already know what your response will be... that I am deluded and that only you understand the truth.

Fat chance.

You fail as a mind reader.........do you have any other talents that you can fall back on, or is the negative attitude it.

Originally posted by Icarus Rising
Just today, I was thinking to myself that there might be just two entities out there in contention; Ba'al (or The Lord of the Flies, Molech, Chemosh, Ashteroth, Lucifer, Satan, whatever) the imposter, and the One True God, Creator of the Universe.

What you describe in this post, IR, is your own personal epiphany of realization that the false concept of dualism exists, and most likely for a definite reason. Satan (LoF, Molech, etc) is not equal to God. Even many of the modern christian demonations have fallen into the trap of teaching dualism. Satan hopes to attain equality with God. There is no such thing as dualism. Satan is forever banished to a subordinate position.

But, I think our discussion is out of place here. Maybe we can find a place to discuss this further.

Originally posted by Sun Matrix


You fail as a mind reader.........do you have any other talents that you can fall back on, or is the negative attitude it.

No, he doesn't have a "negative attitude." He has made an observation about you. Anyone who doesn't agree with your drivel, you view as being "deluded." I have noticed that for a long time about you.. Hey, but you are the way you are...

reply to post by Valhall

Satan (LoF, Molech, etc) is not equal to God.

Of course not. Nothing is equal to God. You can see I know that from my current sig.

Satan seeks to exalt himself above the throne of God. Satan does not seek equality, he seeks dominion over all. He has been given temporary dominion over the world to show us that our salvation lies only with the One True God, Creator of the Universe. Hence we live now in a fallen world, awaiting the return of the Messiah, Christ.

Perhaps my opening was a little ambiguous. I am not a dualist. The power of the One True God reigns supreme over all.

Compared to the Great I AM, Ba'al is a cheap parlor trick.

reply to post by SpeakerofTruth


Thank you speakeroftruth. I have very little patience with people who insist (to the point of obnixiousness) that theirs is the only true and correct way of looking at things. Especially when they credit God with their opinions.

reply to post by GradyPhilpott

I thought it was understood among Jews, Christians, and Muslims that we worship the same God....The hard to get part is why people who love the same God hate each other so much

The Jews and Christians do worship the same Father. The Christians also worship the Son of the Father. The Muslim's god is not our God. They are God's children but He is not who they worship.

Deu.32:31 For their rock is not as our Rock......

Volume 7, Book 62, Number 64: Sahih Bukhari (the most venerated and authentic Islamic source).........Narrated 'Aisha: that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marraige when she was nine years old, and then she remained with him for nine years (i.e. till his death).

Tahrirolvasyleh, fourth volume, Darol Elm, Gom, Iran, 1990:.........A man can have sexual pleasure from a child as young as a baby. However he should not penetrate, sodomising the child is ok. If the man penetrates and damages the child then he should be responsible for her subsistence all her life. This girl, however does not count as one of his four permanent wives. The man will not be eligible to marry the girls' sister.

Bukhari: V4B52N220.... Allah's Apostle said, 'I have been made victorious with terror.

Qur'an:8:12....... I shall terrorize the infidels. So wound their bodies and incapacitate them because they oppose Allah and His Apostle.

Ishaq:326.... Allah said, No Prophet before Muhammad took booty from his enemy nor prisoners for ransom. Muhammad said, I was made victorious with terror. The earth was made a place for me to clean. I was given the most powerful words. Booty was made lawful for me. I was given the power to intercede. These five privileges were awarded to no prophet before me.

(Every criminal's dream prophet - America needs to adopt Islam and our prisons would then be empty)

Ishaq:327..... Allah said, A prophet must slaughter before collecting captives (snip) But Allah desires killing them to manifest the religion.

(Perhaps this next one gives us the clearest understanding as to who Allah really is

Ishaq:510..... When the Apostle looked down on Kahybar he told his Companions, 'O Allah, Lord of the Devils and what into error they throw, and Lord of the winds and what they winnow, we ask Thee for the booty of this town and it's people. Forward in the name of Allah.' He used to say this of every town he raided."

Ishaq:580........ Our strong warriors obey his orders to the letter. By us Allah's religion is undeniably strong. You would think when our horses gallop with bits in their mouths that the sounds of demons are among them. The day we trod down the unbelievers there was no deviation or turning from the Apostle's order. During the battle the people heard our exhortations to fight and the smashing of skulls by swords that sent heads flying. We severed necks with a warrior's blow. Often we have left the slain cut to pieces and a widow crying alas over her mutilated husband. Tis Allah, not man we seek to please.

They blow themselves and their children up in the name of Allah and some of us can actually believe we have the same God???



.............Whirlwind

Excellent research Wirlwind....

When in doubt, let them read what has been written..

Not really much to argue when the actual printed text is displayed before you...

Semper

Originally posted by semperfortis
Excellent research Wirlwind....

When in doubt, let them read what has been written..

Not really much to argue when the actual printed text is displayed before you...

Semper

Please do research yourself before commenting, first of all ONLY 1 of those verses are from the Quran!! = Qur'an:8:12

www.theamericanmuslim.org...
And heres an explanation for it, it is referring to a battle that took place, and nothing to do outside of that. If you read it fully, you would understand, how stupid it is picking just part of the verse, when you need the whole verse to actually understand.

Therefore he has only shown you part of the verse, which he probably did on purpose to fool your mind into thinking it means something else. He obviously has an agenda.



[edit on 5-9-2007 by _Phoenix_]

Originally posted by whirlwind


The Jews and Christians do worship the same Father. The Christians also worship the Son of the Father. The Muslim's god is not our God. They are God's children but He is not who they worship.

Actually Muslims believe that God has sent down many messengers, Abraham, Noah, Jesus, etc, and they believe and respect all of them. So that means they do believe in the same god.

Originally posted by SpeakerofTruth

Originally posted by Sun Matrix


You fail as a mind reader.........do you have any other talents that you can fall back on, or is the negative attitude it.

No, he doesn't have a "negative attitude." He has made an observation about you. Anyone who doesn't agree with your drivel, you view as being "deluded." I have noticed that for a long time about you.. Hey, but you are the way you are...

You appear angry.....again. I guess that's why you label yourself as angry thinker..........Do you have anything else to fall back on besides your anger, because the Speaker of Truth thing isn't working.

To anyone who believes that "Allah" means moon god, I will ask you to define what "Allah" means in Arabic, and how you get "Moon God" from it.

The word for moon in Arabic is "Badr," so please do explain how you get "Allah" from "Badr."

Originally posted by Sun Matrix
There is a crescent moon on the masques for a reason.
History speaks for itself...

Please do tell us on what history says about the orgin of crescent moon and star, including when it was used and who spread it, and how it's related to "moon god."

[edit on 5-9-2007 by DJMessiah]

I am not a Muslim, I am a Baha'i which came out of Iran and Shiia Islam in the mid to late 19th century.

I say that for a reason. We Baha'i's are taught to revere all religious traditions as paths to God revealed periodically to man and revealed in ways that will be understandable to the time and place of their revelation.

Context is everything. And, without that context many of the world's scriptures are indecipherable. This is especially true of the Quran.

I have studied Islam for some time and I just love reading posts from people who have read the Quran, or know a little bit about its traditions spouting off about what it means without taking its contexts or actual history into consideration.

Context is everything.

The fact is Muhammad taught to unruly illiterate Bedouin tribes who made their living off raiding and warfare. Those who had settled were merchants but still were not far from their tribal roots. Life was rough and justice rougher for these people. The morals and ethics he taught were a major step up for them. That cultural context, and the wars and raids that the merchants of Mecca waged against the faithful are accountable for most if not all the military imagery and flavor of the Quran. Muhammad was responding to specific events and that colors the texture of those writings.

With short lives and quick deaths child marriage was the norm through out the known world at the time including the west and Europe. It was not a matter of pedophilia. There were strict laws as to when sexual relations could begin to protect the child and to maximize her chances of child bearing.

Muhammad is known to take "wives" of fallen comrades (and children) not for sexual gratification but to provide them a home and a community in which to live after their husbands were gone. Remember in India and through out the mid-east at the time a widow was not highly regarded and were either turned out, treated as slaves or in the case of India chose suttie and immolate themselves on their husband's funeral fire. So an offer of marriage to any widow was an act of mercy.

Throughout the Quran Muhammad stresses the need to respect other religions of the book. i.e. Jews and Christians and even when he was mad at them for not accepting him, he did not condemn them and offered them protection, granted for a tax but still protection. The infamous choice of convert or die choice was offered to pagans and idol worshipers alone. For the first 100 years of Islamic history conversion was forbidden, and it wasn't until a large number of their North African and Syrian Christian and Jewish subjects began demanding the chance to become Muslim did it cease being the religion of the Arab conquerers.

There is way too much ignorance and blatant prejudice on this thread and it seems to that there are those here who are way too busy denying their own ignorance as opposed to denying ignorance.

[edit on 5-9-2007 by grover]

reply to post by _Phoenix_

Actually Muslims believe that God has sent down many messengers, Abraham, Noah, Jesus, etc, and they believe and respect all of them. So that means they do believe in the same god.

Muhammad also is their prophet. They believe in Noah and Abraham as they are descended from them. Jesus they believe was a prophet, perhaps equal to Muhammad (I don't know) but they don't believe He was the Son of God. Even with all of that, who do they worship?

Satan also knows there is God but does he follow Him? Demons and evil spirits know there is God but who do they follow? Because Islam calls our Father Allah does not mean they follow Him.

Matthew 7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

17.Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.

John 8:37 (Jesus speaking)I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill Me, because My word hath no place in you.

38.I speak that which I have seen with My Father; and ye do that which ye have seen with your father."

39.They answered and said unto Him, "Abraham is our father." Jesus saith unto them, "If ye were Abraham's children ye would do the works of Abraham.

40.But now ye seek to kill Me, a Man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.

41.Ye do the deeds of your father." Then said they to Him, "We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God."

44.Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

47.He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God

So....If we know them by their fruits we know they do not worship our Father. Their rock is not our Rock - their Allah is not our Father.



.........Whirlwind

reply to post by whirlwind


Whirlwind, who was Jesus speaking to when the Bible states he said that?

reply to post by DJMessiah

Whirlwind, who was Jesus speaking to when the Bible states he said that?

He was speaking to Pharisees explicitly. He was speaking to all, including those today, that "say their father is Abraham" but do the deeds of their father - that, to me, includes anyone in any religion that does not follow our Father and instead practices evil.


........Whirlwind

OK,

Then, if it is direct quotes that are desired, here are some direct quotes from the Quran...

# Kill disbelievers wherever you find them. If they attack you, then kill them. Such is the reward of disbelievers. 191

# Have no unbelieving friends. Kill the unbelievers wherever you find them. 89

# If the unbelievers do not offer you peace, kill them wherever you find them. Against such you are given clear warrant. 91

Those who make war with Allah and his messenger will be killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet on alternate sides cut off, or will be expelled out of the land. That is how they will be treated in this world, and in the next they will have an awful doom. 33

# Christians will be burned in the Fire. 72

# Christians are wrong about the Trinity. For that they will have a painful doom. 73

Those who disbelieve will be forced to drink boiling water, and will face a painful doom. 70

How many a township have We destroyed! As a raid by night, or while they slept at noon, Our terror came unto them. 4-5

When you fight with disbelievers, do not retreat. Those who do will go to hell. 15-16

The worst beasts in Allah's sight are the disbelievers. 55

# Slay the idolaters wherever you find them. 5

# Don't let idolaters tend the sanctuaries. Their works are in vain and they will be burned in the Fire. 17

# Fight the disbelievers and hypocrites. Be harsh with them. They are all going to hell anyway. 73

# Don't pray for idolaters (not even for your family) after it is clear they are people of hell-fire. 113

# Fight disbelievers who are near you, and let them see the harshness in you. 123

The people cried out for mercy, but Allah killed them anyway. 15

# Whoever thinks that Allah will not give Muhammad victory should go hang himself. 15

Believing women must lower their gaze and be modest, cover themselves with veils, and not reveal themselves except to their husbands, relatives, children, and slaves. 31

Never help disbelievers. 86

# Allah will tear Christians apart for ascribing partners to him. 13-14

Don't obey disbelievers. 1

# Ignore disbelievers and their poisonous talk. 48

# Allah says it is lawful for Muhammad to marry any women he wants. 50-51

# It's OK to own slaves. 55

# It's OK to own slaves. 50

# If you refuse to fight for Allah, he will punish you with a painful doom. 16-17

# But if you're willing to fight for Allah, he will provide you with lots of booty. 19-20

# Don't make friends with Allah's enemies. For those who do so, Allah has prepared a dreadful doom. 14-15

# On the Last Day good Muslims will not love their non-Muslim friends and family members, not even their fathers, sons, or brothers (or their mothers, daughters, or sisters). 22

Don't be friends with those who disbelieve in the Hereafter. They are Allah's enemies. 13

A hypocritical Jew looks like an ass carrying books. Those who deny the revelations of Allah are ugly. 5

USC EDU The Quran

The above are all DIRECT quotes from the Quran. Not in context, or taken out of context, simply and succinctly direct quotes....

Now before you jump in with the "Well the Bible says this, or that", I am NOT a Jew and so I abide by the teachings of the New Testament, and Jesus Christ. I know of NO such teachings or quotes directing me to do any of the things listed above in the New Testament. Having read both the Quran and the New Testament several times.

As for the member that asked or commented about the Moon God origin of the word Allah, that was explained very clearly and archaeological evidence given previous in the thread.

No real need to re-write the obvious....

````````````````````

Now I don't for a minute believe that my Muslim friends believe any of the direct quotes I listed above from the Quran, that does not however in any way remove them from that book.

Exactly like the evidence of the origin of the word Allah, the words from the Quran are there for all to read.

What any one person believes or chooses to not believe is a very personal thing.

I think that all those of a Monotheistic belief system are more or less aligned in their beliefs. I do not think that MY belief is socially superior to theirs, or theirs to mine.

I do of course believe that my belief is the correct one. Such is the nature of faith. I am sure that my Muslim friends all think the same.

That being said, to deny the writings that are there for all to see, or to deny the direct evidence of origin, is to deny the truth and to accept ignorance.

I am in no way ready to do that.

Thank you

Semper

reply to post by semperfortis



And for every one of those quotes semper, i am sure DJ Messiah who is Muslim (or anybody really wanting to look) could find an equal number of quotes stressing compassion and mercy and love.

There are many translations of the Quran into English out there, some better than others and some with an agenda to either inflame terrorism or to otherwise defame Islam (translated by Christian missionaries) so a good translation is a must. I have the standard English translation by A. Yusaf Ali. It has been around for decades and as I understand it, the best of the bunch.

Also for every one of the quotes you cited you could also find quotes from the old testament where Yehweh urges Joshua for example to slaughter every one, man, woman and child in the cities they sacked. And then there is the psalm that the song "By the Rivers of Babylon" is built around that ends with the desire to smash the psalmists enemies children's heads against the rocks.



[edit on 5-9-2007 by grover]

I never said that there was no compassion in the Quran...

In fact I specifically mentioned otherwise..

That does not subtract from the fact that the statements are in fact there.

Having Faith does not equate denying the truth.

As for the definition, the above is directly from the most current definition sponsored by the University of Southern California...

I'll trust them

Semper