Why don't Palestinian's just declare itself an independent state?

Well Arch, I mean geez, Arafat created and backs them, seems to be their (Palestinians and Arafat) problem, not Israels, because if its Israel's, we know what the outcome would be don't we?

Arafat did not create these groups, and he does not control them. There have been counless instances where Arafat has said something, and Hamas, or some other group has refused to abide by his orders. When it suits their purposes they follow what he dictates, other times they refuse.

Palestinian's want a state, then they will have to take responsibility in dismantling, or disbanding those said organizations.....

You can dismantle the organizations, but the people will still exist, as will their hatred.

It is individuals who make up these groups. With, or without the existing leadership there will be attacks. Other groups will form in their place.

It will not begin to end until the main motive is removed.

"....wwww. A D L .org....

Zionist propoganda web site. I will discount anything written there without verification from a neutral site. I have encountered countless deceptions from these people"


Another source critic.....
Provide the said information to say that the ADL is a "Zionist" propaganda site before I take what you say to heart.


"Arab nations can have legitimacy ruling over other arabs. Israel cannot since they do not represent Arabs. It would be silly to suggest that Israel has more right to rule these people, or the land they live on."


Total horsecrap....! They are conquered, just as they were conquered by the Jordanians, Syrains, and the Egyptians.....
Semetic is semetic.....


"What you refer to as terrorism is justified actions of resistance to occupation in their eyes"

Flat out wrong....terrorism is never "justified", just excused! In "thier eyes" and according to their doctrines and teachings, genocide is a better terminology.


"Israel can choose to end the occupation, but can any Palestinain leadership stop the hate after all the years of occupation?

Of course not. You cannot expect that. There is absolutely no way to ensure it. You ask for the impossible knowing that it is impossible."


Yes, it can stop....stop teaching it to the children.....hate is breeded and taught....dogmatic.
IT will end if Israel and Palestine is to have a real and lasting peace....bet on it. Palestine will have to take responsibility for those actions once it becomes a state, in one form or another...also bet on it.


"Ethnic cleansing?"

You implying that Israel practices "ethnic cleansing"?
Sources please.



"Why NOT the third option if you know it will never happen?"

I call it as I believe I see it. Peace and ending "occupation" to Palestinians and those terrorist organization supported and funded by Arafat call it eradication and destruction of all Jews and Israel....you still deny this?



regards
seekerof

"Arafat did not create these groups, and he does not control them"

Riigghhtt. He just funds, harbors and allows them....he just praises them, he has the same philosophies they do....he allows their continued acts....they 'talk' the same, etc., etc.
Wait...maybe they control him?



regards
seekerof

Here's the problem in a nut-shell.....

Occupation for the ending of terroism and the acts committed therein!
Which will come first?


regards
seekerof

Just a side note, if anyone is interested...they didnt actually sign on that day at the whitehouse. They were just signing a blank peice of paper....Arafat, who was at the WH more than any other leader during the Clinton administration, dragged his feat at the last second. In my opinion, that whole mess can't be resolved until Arafat - who considers international donation to be his, not his people, and is worth at least over 2 billion dollars (some speculate up to 20bn) - is out of power.
(heck, 2 billion would go a along way in the west bank and Gaza - where there are 2+ million people but I suppose Mrs. Arafat needs that money for bling in Paris, where she resides)

Originally posted by ArchAngel
I don't think that the Palestinians would declare themselves an independant state until Isreal is no longer a state.

Does anyone remember when Arafat and Rabin signed an agreement on the white house lawn?




The above map was agreed upon. Israel was to have withdrawn behind this line long ago.

Arch, in mentioning what Israel has not done since the Oslo Accords, lets not forget to mention what Palestinians/Arafat has not complied with:

"Palestinian Authority and P.L.O.
Non-Compliance with signed agreements and commitments"
Link:
www.tzemach.org...


Unless, of course, this is another "Zionist" propaganda site.....



regards
seekerof

Another source critic.....
Provide the said information to say that the ADL is a "Zionist" propaganda site before I take what you say to heart.

Everything the ADL has to say about the mid-east conflict is propoganda.

It may not all be lies, but it is biased. Through spin, and half-truths they present issues in a light favorable to Israel, and unfavorable to the arabs.

In case you did not know the site is run by zionist exteremists. Would you like quotes from Foxman, or do you already know this?

They are conquered, just as they were conquered by the Jordanians, Syrains, and the Egyptians.....
Semetic is semetic.....

They estblished control in absence of an arab government.

They are far more welcomed by the people of the land than Israel would be.

Semitic is semitic, but Jewish is not Muslim, or Christian. Israel represents Jews, not any other religion.

Flat out wrong....terrorism is never "justified", just excused! In "thier eyes" and according to their doctrines and teachings, genocide is a better terminology.

I did not say it was justified. I said they justify it.

You implying that Israel practices "ethnic cleansing"?
Sources please.

Palestine: Destroyed Villages

www.palestine-net.com...

Palestinian Villages Depopulated in 1948 and 1967



Everything about Ethnic cleansing (euphemistically called "transfer")

student.cs.ucc.ie...

Ethnic Cleansing in Palestine

Yatta As a Case Study

www.arij.org...


I could go on, and on.....

I call it as I believe I see it. Peace and ending "occupation" to Palestinians and those terrorist organization supported and funded by Arafat call it eradication and destruction of all Jews and Israel....you still deny this?

This rhetoric is targeted at the people. If he did not say these things he would not be their leader.

How close are they to destroying Israel?

Again, does this justify occupation?

Just as you rightfully point out that terrorism is not justified the occupation is also not justifed.

Occupation for the ending of terroism and the acts committed therein!
Which will come first?

I suspect either the occupation will end, or there will be war.

How can attacks stop until Israel withdraws?

All of the leaders could call for an end to attacks, and there still would be attacks.

An end to terrorism BEFORE the end to occupation is almost impossible.

In my view the occupation is terrorism itself, and far worse than what the Palestinains are doing.

So, let me get this straight...
Israel concedes and gives up the "occupations"....
Terrorism and the acts therein continue....
Palestinians gain statehood...
The terrorist acts continue, and are still "justified"....
Do you understand where this is going Arch?
Just as Palestinian's want their "occupied territories" back and their indepedence in the form of statehood, the terrorist attacks continue, and yet what have the Israelis gained? Thats what they are going to be asking? How long do you think they will refrain from acting against continued attacks even AFTER withdrawing from the "occupied territories"?


regards
seekerof

Arch, in mentioning what Israel has not done since the Oslo Accords, lets not forget to mention what Palestinians/Arafat has not complied with:


Both sides failed to live up to an agreement that most likely was doomed to fail.

I presented it as an example of where they did agree, and for the map that was agreed on in responce to your implication that I wanted the destruction of Israel.

If the question is 'where is Israels border' then the Oslo map is the best place to start.

If not this map, then what would you suggest?

Just as Palestinian's want their "occupied territories" back and their indepedence in the form of statehood, the terrorist attacks continue, and yet what have the Israelis gained? Thats what they are going to be asking? How long do you think they will refrain from acting against continued attacks even AFTER withdrawing from the "occupied territories"?

If Israel withdraws, and attacks continue then there will be war again.

But we are not there yet.

I believe that if Israel withdraws attacks will virtually cease.

If they build a wall they could stop almost all of them.

They will not end the hatred against them. There is nothing they can do towards this end. They can only make it worse.

"If the question is 'where is Israels border' then the Oslo map is the best place to start.

If not this map, then what would you suggest?"

Arch...Oslo is cool with me...I think I had mentioned this....my contention to this remains and will remain....
I know enough to know that Israel will want the ending of terrorist acts against its citizens and nation to stop....and within the time frame that Israel returns those "occupied territories" and follows whatever is agreed upon, in the case that both are seeking a real and lasting peace.
They might or might not want the Hamas Charter and Palestinian Covenant to be trashed, seems that it will be a matter up to the Palestinians.....but you can call it rhetoric, nonetheless, it is a dogmatic doctrine that is taught Arch...taught and believed.

Hamas Charter:
www.mideastweb.org...

Palestinian Covenant:
www.science.co.il...

The sources don't matter on the above two...they can be found on and in any neutral source...the words are the same, as is the meanings.


regards
seekerof

They might or might not want the Hamas Charter and Palestinian Covenant to be trashed, seems that it will be a matter up to the Palestinians.....but you can call it rhetoric, nonetheless, it is a dogmatic doctrine that is taught Arch...taught and believed.

I read these a long time ago. They certainly are inflamatory, but as words they justify nothing.

Are the Israelies any different when they teach their children that the GOY arabs are not human?

Or that the land belongs to them because God said so?

Or the countless other examples of anti-muslim rhetoric?

It is present on both sides. They have dehumaized eachother over the years. They each see the other as being barbaric animals.

The problem of hate is on both sides, not just the Palestians. In the case of the Hasidic Jews who on earth has more hate than them?

Probably a few others not named Arch.
I look forward to a solution that will end this conflict; a real and lasting peace, non-disputable.

I contend as I assume you contend, but all-in-all, it will ultimately take both sides to admit many greviences and errors.

Both sides have much to offer to the area, if not to the whole Middle East, but mind-sets will have to change and change for the better, if not for good.

The bloodshed and "justifications" are a cycle that can be broken but will take alot of work...yes, I agree, hatred is not taken away in one day or over-night, but real change in this destrcutive emotion has to made and made with a real and lasting effort.


regards
seekerof

I contend as I assume you contend, but all-in-all, it will ultimately take both sides to admit many greviences and errors.

I did not want to change the subject, but I believe even this will not end the conflict.

I kept the debate on the level that you understand. It goes much deeper than you thought.

There are more sides to this than is obvious. The third side is the real problem:

MASONS

They exist inside of both factions. They are the real ones responsible for the conflict.

In case you were not aware the Temple Mount is holy to them too.

But their temple would have an inner chamber designed opposing the Tabernacle. An Anti-Tablernacle that is symbolic of pagan/luciferian sun worship.

These are the ones warned about in Jewish, Christian, and Muslim prophecy.

Do not believe that the leaders on any side represent the people. Their goal is hidden, and they pit one side against the other in order to reach their goals.

As you can see the problem does not have a simple solution. When it reaches the point of desperation on both sides they will step in and impose their own solution.

Problem - Reaction - Solution

If you have not seen this already you must read it(The author is a Messiah Jew):


(Israeli Supreme Court Building)


Jerry Golden "REPORT"

The Roots of Evil in Jerusalem.

thegoldenreport.com...=00180.html


Even Arafat is a Mason



groups.msn.com...

(countless other sources for this info if you care to look)

[Edited on 18-1-2004 by ArchAngel]

Read it.

Also....discuss it.

I understand a bit more than you think, but with some things, I tend to not mention them till the need.



regards
seekerof

Read it.

Also....discuss it.

I understand a bit more than you think, but with some things, I tend to not mention them till the need.


It seems when you bring this into the debate almost everyone rejects the idea. They can't see past the two sides of the dialectic. They will deny it no matter how much proof there is.

Almost all of the major players in the conflicts around the world are Masons.

They are the ones who will present BEN JOSHUA - ANTICHRIST.

So many are blind to it. How can they fail?

I refuse to say nothing. Against all hope I will do the little I can to stop them.

I haven't failed, I've found 10,000 ways that
don't work.
~Thomas Edison

I would rather be a failure than to not try.

There are those behind the Masons...a even more secretive and secretive 'sect/order/whatever you wish to term it........you are aware of this correct?


regards
seekerof

There are those behind the Masons...a even more secretive and secretive 'sect/order/whatever you wish to term it........you are aware of this correct?

Illuminati by any other name. Who exactly they are is not clear, and I do not pretend to know who any of them are, but I do believe they exist.

They are the link in the secret societies of the world.

Some say they are aliens, or shape shifting reptiles, but I believe they are humans. United by their desire for power and nothing else.

I wonder if they would kill eachother off after they reach the goal of one world government.

"United by their desire for power and nothing else.

I wonder if they would kill eachother off after they reach the goal of one world government. "


A study of history and especially ancient history will reveal much of/on this. I do not wish this to stray too far of the original topic but it is interesting nonetheless, but I again assert, a maticulous read of ancient history and history will reveal alot on this....
And as to them killing each other off, I would assume that 'removals' would be expected but as long as the overall goal was maintained and remained 'control effective', it would otherwise be acceptable...



regards
seekerof

[Edited on 18-1-2004 by Seekerof]

I do not wish this to stray too far of the original topic but it is interesting nonetheless, but I again assert, a maticulous read of ancient history and history will reveal alot on this....

It is the real answer to the question posed in the title. I don't think it is off topic, but it would be best left to another thread.