I know this has been done to death but i need to understand.

Although i always keep an open mind on subjects there is always one thing i cannot get my head around no matter how hard i try and that is Darwins "theory" of evolution.

First i cannot understand how people can actually believe that we evolved from fish in the sea, then evolved into an ape and eventually homo sapien.

Do you know how silly this sounds?

And if you still stick to this theory then i have a question for you.

If we did as you say evolve then who made the little microbes that we supposedly evolved from?

I am an athiest but i do believe there is a God,supreme being who created us, just not in the way as all the religions describe.

There is no way we and other animals just evolved after the big bang happened.

I mean look at pictures of the Earth its ecosystem has been intelligently designed, look at how complex humans are, our faces are perfectly "designed" for our senses,our hands can perform every function that needs to be done for our survival.

We have not evolved for 1000's of years, the only difference between now and ancient times is that we currently have more knowledge of how things work.

We are educated from a young age, and this alone sets us apart from any other animal.

How anyone can believe in the theory of evolution is beyond me.

Everything in our universe has been intelligently designed.

the first thing i have to point out is that there aren't any "evolutionists"
it's a false word. people that support a well documented theory aren't "ists" they are people that acknowledge SCIENCE.

Originally posted by markjaxson
I know this has been done to death but i need to understand.

Although i always keep an open mind on subjects there is always one thing i cannot get my head around no matter how hard i try and that is Darwins "theory" of evolution.

First i cannot understand how people can actually believe that we evolved from fish in the sea, then evolved into an ape and eventually homo sapien.

well, because there's quite obvious evidence to support that life started in the sea... so eventually at one point sea creatures developed the proper organs to walk on land... we actually have fossils that support all of this.

the apes thing, there's mountains of evidence to support that.

Do you know how silly this sounds?

no. it may seem silly to you, but it's completely scientific.

And if you still stick to this theory then i have a question for you.

If we did as you say evolve then who made the little microbes that we supposedly evolved from?

that's a common misconception:
that is NOT a part of evolution.
evolutionary theory starts from the second that the very first microbe is made.

however, i'll just throw out that NOTHING made the microbes, they formed as a product of chemical abiogenesis.

I am an athiest but i do believe there is a God,supreme being who created us, just not in the way as all the religions describe.

that would make you a DEIST, not an atheist. please get the terminology right.

There is no way we and other animals just evolved after the big bang happened.

consider this, the big bang occured 13.7 billion years ago..
the earth formed 4.7ish billion years ago...
4.7 billion years is a lot of time.

I mean look at pictures of the Earth its ecosystem has been intelligently designed, look at how complex humans are, our faces are perfectly "designed" for our senses,our hands can perform every function that needs to be done for our survival.

no, they're EVOLVED.... and they're quite far from perfect. we only have a limited span of view, we can only see a tiny fraction of the electromagnetic spectrum, etc.

now, if i point out a cloud to you that looks just like an elephant, does that mean it was designed?
the arguement i'm putting forth is that the evolutionary process is so great that there is an ILLUSION of design.

We have not evolved for 1000's of years, the only difference between now and ancient times is that we currently have more knowledge of how things work.

...and we're significantly taller and have developed different varieties of skin tone, facial structure, and hair texture...

and evolution isn't something that takes place in massive leaps over thousands of years, it's something that gradually takes place over MILLIONS of years.

We are educated from a young age, and this alone sets us apart from any other animal.

other animals teach their young stuff at a young age too. lion cubs learn to fight and hunt through playful games...

How anyone can believe in the theory of evolution is beyond me.

your lack of looking into the evidence is beyond me. before you question this theory look at all the available evidence. if you find that the libraries of evidence aren't enough to convince you, then you really have a problem.

Everything in our universe has been intelligently designed.

wow, then the designer must be a prick... it did design AIDS and ebola after all...

Originally posted by markjaxson
I am an athiest but i do believe there is a God,supreme being who created us, just not in the way as all the religions describe.

I don't think that you fit the atheism 'box'.

I'll let others answer the rest...

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
the first thing i have to point out is that there aren't any "evolutionists"
it's a false word. people that support a well documented theory aren't "ists" they are people that acknowledge SCIENCE.

Dont think so....

ev·o·lu·tion·ist /ˌɛvəˈluʃənɪst or, especially Brit., ˌivə-/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[ev-uh-loo-shuh-nist or, especially Brit., ee-vuh-] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun 1. a person who believes in or supports a theory of evolution, esp. in biology.
2. a person who supports a policy of gradual growth or development rather than sudden change or expansion.
–adjective Also, ev·o·lu·tion·is·tic. 3. of or pertaining to evolution or evolutionists.
4. believing in or supporting a theory of evolution, esp. in biology.

Originally posted by markjaxson
I know this has been done to death but i need to understand.

Although i always keep an open mind on subjects there is always one thing i cannot get my head around no matter how hard i try and that is Darwins "theory" of evolution.

First i cannot understand how people can actually believe that we evolved from fish in the sea, then evolved into an ape and eventually homo sapien.

Your reply:
well, because there's quite obvious evidence to support that life started in the sea... so eventually at one point sea creatures developed the proper organs to walk on land... we actually have fossils that support all of this.

the apes thing, there's mountains of evidence to support that.

My reply:
So how come there are still apes around that have not evolved?

And why only one species (Humans) have evolved from sea creatures when there are millions of sea creatures millions of years ago yet only we have evolved into many other species finally evolving into homosapian?

Impossible evolutionists cannot answer this, animals do not evolve into other species, neither do sea creatures, the fossils are not evidence they are just another species and not evolution.

Do you know how silly this sounds?

Your reply:
no. it may seem silly to you, but it's completely scientific.

My reply:
Science cannot explain everything at the moment. It wasnt so long ago that we thought the earth was flat.

And if you still stick to this theory then i have a question for you.

If we did as you say evolve then who made the little microbes that we supposedly evolved from?

Your reply:
that's a common misconception:
that is NOT a part of evolution.
evolutionary theory starts from the second that the very first microbe is made.

however, i'll just throw out that NOTHING made the microbes, they formed as a product of chemical abiogenesis.

My reply:
Chicken and egg argument,cannot prove it.

I am an athiest but i do believe there is a God,supreme being who created us, just not in the way as all the religions describe.

Your reply:
that would make you a DEIST, not an atheist. please get the terminology right.

My reply:
My bad, you knew what i meant so no harm done.

There is no way we and other animals just evolved after the big bang happened.

Your reply:
consider this, the big bang occured 13.7 billion years ago..
the earth formed 4.7ish billion years ago...
4.7 billion years is a lot of time.

My reply:
Certainly is a long time.

I mean look at pictures of the Earth its ecosystem has been intelligently designed, look at how complex humans are, our faces are perfectly "designed" for our senses,our hands can perform every function that needs to be done for our survival.

Your reply:
no, they're EVOLVED.... and they're quite far from perfect. we only have a limited span of view, we can only see a tiny fraction of the electromagnetic spectrum, etc.

now, if i point out a cloud to you that looks just like an elephant, does that mean it was designed?
the arguement i'm putting forth is that the evolutionary process is so great that there is an ILLUSION of design.

My reply:
Now thats not a valid argument, nature is unpredictable and by nature i mean the earths ecosystem, not animal nature, animal nature IS predictable theres a difference.

Its an illusion of evolution, fully formed species cannot physically change its impossible and very far fetched.

We have not evolved for 1000's of years, the only difference between now and ancient times is that we currently have more knowledge of how things work.

Your reply:
...and we're significantly taller and have developed different varieties of skin tone, facial structure, and hair texture...

and evolution isn't something that takes place in massive leaps over thousands of years, it's something that gradually takes place over MILLIONS of years.

My reply:
So lets say 10 million years from now we will physically look like a different species? I dont think so, we dont need to improve or adapt to anything,we as a species have the physical and mental intelligence to adapt to almost anything to survive as a species. We do not need to evolve to anything.

We are educated from a young age, and this alone sets us apart from any other animal.

Your reply:
other animals teach their young stuff at a young age too. lion cubs learn to fight and hunt through playful games...

My reply:
But they dont have the intelligence to think, "all right i have had enough of this hunting malarky im going to get a job instead". Its mostly intelligence that has evolved.

How anyone can believe in the theory of evolution is beyond me.

Your reply:
your lack of looking into the evidence is beyond me. before you question this theory look at all the available evidence. if you find that the libraries of evidence aren't enough to convince you, then you really have a problem.

My reply:
I have read all the evidence put forth for evolution and i do think its a great theory for our origins but it does not explain it all like Intelligent Design can,

Everything in our universe has been intelligently designed.

Your reply:
wow, then the designer must be a prick... it did design AIDS and ebola after all...


My reply:
AIDS probably came from humans sexually messing about with animals or something and the creator obviously didnt want us doing that,same with homosexuality,most viruses are there for a reason and controls the population.

Originally posted by markjaxson
Yeah im a deist, never knew there was such a word to describe my beliefs.

Most deists actually accept evolution.

The typical deist type of god is the set the knobs to 'universe create and run' version, that is, he has no input into the universe and does not perform miracles.

Thus, if god never created species individually by some sort of miracle, then a natural process is required to explain diversity.

I think it comes down to 2 choices based on the evidence (i.e. the appearance of new species over time). One based on miracles, or a natural process. Or, I suppose front-loading by a god-dude, which is still a bit of a miracle...

ABE:

I have read all the evidence put forth for evolution and i do think its a great theory for our origins but it does not explain it all like Intelligent Design can

Heh, that's because ID can explain everything, and therefore nothing. It's philosophy.

I also doubt you've read all the evidence put forward for evolution, that would take a while. It's over 100 years worth of scientific work.

[edit on 30-8-2007 by melatonin]

Let me take a stab at this as I was and evo biologist for a time....

What we've come to learn is that major jumps in selection tend to be caused and centered around those events that in some way stress or change the system i.e. the environment. It may be disasters, increased solar radiation, whatever, but those events typically lead to small but easily seen changes in various species over the long haul. It all comes down to mutations and which ones will lead to a better survival rate so that those mutations become the norm and are reinforced. The slow changes over time theories have been dropped for the more favorable "jumps" centered around environmental stress. The resultant effects still take thousands of years to show up but they do over time and lead to species that cannot breed together anymore....

The topic of why we don't "see it now" is that we do but in very isolated cases and also understand that on a macro scale the Earth has been quite stable for many thousands of years.

For pretty good evidence, please look at the development of the human fetus in it's early stages. We have gills and tails.... Even the most ardent creationist has to recognize that FACT as it is one. Those vestigial traits came from somewhere but our development has made those not necessary for our survival. Same with the connection between curling ones tongue and earlobes (I'll assume you know that one as every bio class uses it at some point) but what I'm getting at is what if only those people that had that trait bred successfully. Pretty soon everyone would have earlobes and could curl their tongue and so on down the line.

At the end of the day, there is far more evidence for natural selection to be the major player versus some whiz bang godlike thingy. How it all started is open to debate as is where it will eventually end up but there is no question that we humans came from something that had tails and gills and if your god made it that way, then so be it but he also made lot's of other things that have gills and tails so it kinda makes us not so special in that scheme....

P.S. read the Selfish Gene, it is quite good....

Originally posted by markjaxson
So lets say 10 million years from now we will physically look like a different species? I dont think so, we dont need to improve or adapt to anything,we as a species have the physical and mental intelligence to adapt to almost anything to survive as a species. We do not need to evolve to anything.

Well that's an idea that has been brought up before. We live in a world that compensates for our physical deficiencies, so maybe classical evolution will slow down for humans now. Fair enough. It may be that way. Our evolution may be by other mechanisms... such as our own technological advancement. Then again, we have the pressures of vastly different lifestyles to primitive man.... later births, different diet etc. If these factors matter enough that some people have children while others don't, then we may evolve to adapt.

We are educated from a young age, and this alone sets us apart from any other animal.

Your reply:
other animals teach their young stuff at a young age too. lion cubs learn to fight and hunt through playful games...

My reply:
But they dont have the intelligence to think, "all right i have had enough of this hunting malarky im going to get a job instead". Its mostly intelligence that has evolved.

Surely this is a matter of degree than of fundamental type.
The key strength of Homo Sapiens is that flexibility and adaptability, but other animals learn, use simple tools, figure stuff out. Just not as fast as we do.

And sure, thoughts and ideas Evolve too. Intelligence has evolved. "Evolutionary Theory" doesn't have to just involve mutating DNA. It can be applied to all sorts of things. Businesses, for example.... successful ones live and multiply. Unprofitable ones, inflexible ones, die off and don't produce "offspring". Businesses evolve to fit into the economic ecosystem.

You can look at modern day Walmart, and think how it evolved from a couple of guys swapping a deer skin for some veges, thousands of years ago.


[edit on 30-8-2007 by emjoi]

Originally posted by markjaxson
ev·o·lu·tion·ist /ˌɛvəˈluʃənɪst or, especially Brit., ˌivə-/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[ev-uh-loo-shuh-nist or, especially Brit., ee-vuh-] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun 1. a person who believes in or supports a theory of evolution, esp. in biology.
2. a person who supports a policy of gradual growth or development rather than sudden change or expansion.
–adjective Also, ev·o·lu·tion·is·tic. 3. of or pertaining to evolution or evolutionists.
4. believing in or supporting a theory of evolution, esp. in biology.

not arguing that it's not in the dictionary, i'm arguing that it's a stupid word.

So how come there are still apes around that have not evolved?

they did evolve... in fact, they evolved from a common ancestor with us. hell, we are apes..

And why only one species (Humans) have evolved from sea creatures when there are millions of sea creatures millions of years ago yet only we have evolved into many other species finally evolving into homosapian?

um... every species has an ancestor that came from the sea...
and the sea creatures evolved from then too... there are seacreatures now that weren't around millions of years ago and millions of years ago there were sea creatures that we don't have now.

Impossible evolutionists cannot answer this, animals do not evolve into other species, neither do sea creatures, the fossils are not evidence they are just another species and not evolution.

no, you're clearly showing misconceptions about evolution....
now i know why mel deferred... it gets a bit frustrating having to deal with people that don't really have a good grounding in a theory that they're arguing against.

Science cannot explain everything at the moment. It wasnt so long ago that we thought the earth was flat.

science had actually calculated the circumfrance of the earth why religion still claimed it was flat... actually, an ancient greek mathematician had done it... such things were suppressed by religion.

And if you still stick to this theory then i have a question for you.

If we did as you say evolve then who made the little microbes that we supposedly evolved from?

Chicken and egg argument,cannot prove it.

it's not a chicken and the egg arguement, it's been brought up before with a link to a good source on it.

My bad, you knew what i meant so no harm done.

it's ok, you learn something new every day..
though you're an oddball for a deist, they tend to support science here.

My reply:
Now thats not a valid argument, nature is unpredictable and by nature i mean the earths ecosystem, not animal nature, animal nature IS predictable theres a difference.

Its an illusion of evolution, fully formed species cannot physically change its impossible and very far fetched.

then why do you contain genetic material not present in either of your biological parents?
each human being contains a few mutations, each living thing does. we've witnessed evolution.
and there is no such thing as a fully formed species, just a species along the path of evolution.

My reply:
So lets say 10 million years from now we will physically look like a different species? I dont think so, we dont need to improve or adapt to anything,we as a species have the physical and mental intelligence to adapt to almost anything to survive as a species. We do not need to evolve to anything.

true... just like the great white shark really hasn't changed that much. natural selection does have a "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" clause in there.

My reply:
But they dont have the intelligence to think, "all right i have had enough of this hunting malarky im going to get a job instead". Its mostly intelligence that has evolved.

in us, yes. but evolution doesn't tend towards intelligence, it tends towards survival.

I have read all the evidence put forth for evolution and i do think its a great theory for our origins but it does not explain it all like Intelligent Design can,

"it's magic" doesn't explain anything. creationism explains 0, it just says "we can't know"

AIDS probably came from humans sexually messing about with animals or something and the creator obviously didnt want us doing that,same with homosexuality,most viruses are there for a reason and controls the population.

....that's just so horrible and wrong. homosexuality is a naturally occuring condition, we find it in other animals, from lions to penguins. AIDS came from a virus evolving and probably through unclean medical practices, not beastiality...
and still, population controll or not, that's still prickish to create ebola...

So, basically, you're saying Intelligent Design is the reason for life because of the complexity of life? I couldn't disagree with you more. Just because you can't comprehend something doesn't make it impossible.

I think the problem you're having is that you can't comprehend a process that takes hundreds of millions of years thus far, and will continue for hundreds of millions of years to come. I know i can't comprehend that kind of time, but it doesn't change the fact that our ancestors were apes, and their ancestors were, technically, sea creatures.

(moderator, please delete my post thanks!)

[edit on 9/1/2007 by Batty]

Apparently Charles Darwin renounced his own theory shortly before he died. To look at how many varieties of life forms there are and how extremely complex their biological systems are in comparison to any machine suggests that evolution was no accident. The bottom line is, if the government expects you to believe it, then there is a very high chance that it's not the truth.

It may be that carbon based life happens wherever and whenever the possibility and proper conditions exists. Human evolution has been compromised by the fact that man has interferred with natural selection. In more ancient times a blind person wouldn't last in this enviornment. Today they not only survive but thrive.

It is not necessarily a bad thing in humanist terms but it does have it's effect on natural selection.

[edit on 1-9-2007 by damwel]

Originally posted by NuclearPaul
Apparently Charles Darwin renounced his own theory shortly before he died.

it's not the truth.

Here you go. You answered the first part yourself later in your post.

There is no evidence that Darwin renounced his theory. That's just a baldfaced lie.

To mark jaxson and any other like minded people who do not swallow the rubbish spoon fed to them through the lies that is education and schools e.g. why teach the theory of evolution as proven when it is quite clearly not?

You are right to question evolution. It shocks me at the stupidity of some people to accept a theory A THEORY (some one else's idea) about something which if anything has been more disproved in the last 100 or so years since Darwin proposed his IDEA (theory).

He said himself that as the fossil record got more detailed over time (as in his time they were barely scratching the surface and didn’t have anywhere near the amount of fossils they have today) and more fossils were recovered/found it would add credibility to his THEORY. On the contrary it has done the opposite.
Do not make the mistake of confusing adaptation for evolution (WE ADAPT TO CHANGES ONLY FOR SURIVIAL THEN REVERT BACK ONCE CONDITIONS IN THE ENVIROMENT RETURN TO A SO CALLED NORMAL STATE (this is one thing that has been proven). IT IS WRITTEN INTO US TO BE THE WAY WE ARE, SOMETHING CALLED D.N.A.) We react for survival then revert.

Take X-men for example; they are supposed to represent humans who have gone into the SUPPOSED next stage of human evolution but what are they classed as Hmmmmmmm oh yes mutants. They are considered freaks (non-human/wrong); does this not tell you something?

Ask yourself these questions if you doubt what I say.

1. Where are all the fossils showing half formed human's with half formed arms, fingers, legs etc etc (This does not apply to human's alone)?

2. Where are all the half formed ape's and half formed human's hanging out these days (I supposed they all turned into humans but then hang on why are there still apes around if they all turned into Human's; very muddy water indeed)?

3. Why in the billions of years of earths past has there never been another creature/animal to achieve our level of intelligence (to challenge our dominance of earth); are we supposed to believe in chance alone in this too?

Lastly is it so difficult to believe in some higher form of intelligence or that something more than mere chance took a hand in our creation, earth's creation and even the universe.

Well I will leave that for you to decide, just keep an open mind is all I ask of you.

Good Luck