Ron Paul: Iran Attack On Within A Year

Originally posted by malcolmdelaney
reply to post by Jaruseleh

 

We've invaded two countries. One of which had NOTHING to do with 9/11.

We went to war with Iraq over WMD's, not 9/11. Al-Queda didn't get thrown into the mix until AFTER we invaded.

If you’re going to reply, please do so with relevant facts, and not talking points

reply to post by Vanguard223


You want an example of how the Patriot Act can ruin someone's life. Here's one:

www.newshounds.us...

Yes. I know he wat acquitted. The point is that without the Patriot Act, this would not have gone this far.

I'm sure that President Bush would be overjoyed to leave Pres. Clinton/
VP Obama with a big mess to untangle in Iran-Iraq. BTW, doesn't the
Bible say something about an ultimate Armegeddon battle occuring in that
part of the world?


[edit on 30-8-2007 by carewemust]

Originally posted by malcolmdelaney
reply to post by Jaruseleh

 

Let’s look at what's happened since 9/11:

A "War on Terrorism" was launched. Terrorism is a technique, a concept. Common sense should ask how a war can be launched on something intangible. It takes some brainwashing to do so.

A war can be launched on the perpetrators of the "technique", where ever they may be. Just because a group doesn't have a country to declare war on, that doesn't mean we should just leave them be.

We've invaded two countries. One of which had NOTHING to do with 9/11.

The invasion of Afghanistan was justified because the Taliban was giving safe harbor to the terrorists responsible for 9/11. End of discussion on that.

The Invasion of Iraq was justified because Saddam Hussein refused to let in inspectors on several occasion, fired missiles and AA guns at aircraft enforcing the no fly zone that was set up to protect the Kurds from genocide, Saddam violated several U.N. resolutions (on several occasions)which cosequences CLEARLY stated that action could be taken up to and including the use of force. I believe that the invasion of Iraq was justified but not undebatable. Afghanistan...undebatable.

The Patriot Act, which shreds some of the most important parts of the Constitution was passed.

Oh really? Shreds the Constitution, eh? Over dramatize much?

Tens of thousand of civilians have died in Iraq & Afghanistan along with 4,000 US Soldiers.

Yes....war is hell. I wish we never had to go to war but I also live in the real world and know why we do.

Hundreds of billions of dollars have been wasted. Our children and our children's children will have us to thank for this.

The money is not wasted if a stable, democratic Iraq comes out of this and terrorists, who might be in other parts of the world committing acts if they weren't in Iraq, are killed.

We're not any safer.

We're not? How many planes have flown into buildings since 9/11? Oh...but you don't believe it was terrorists in aircraft that perpetrated those acts, do you? Which leads me to your nest "point"....

Most important of all. No real investigation of 9/11 ever took place. The best thinking that defenders of the official story can do is label anyone who questions the official story a "conspiracy theorist" and refer to some have baked debunking jobs to back up their flimsy claims.

The best the defenders of the official story can do is look at the facts and use common sense to interpret them. Anyone who thinks the U.S. government, the Jews, aliens, or the girl scouts destroyed the twin towers, is seriously smoking something.

If you’re going to reply, please do so with relevant facts, and not talking points

Talking points? You mean like you just did?

reply to post by astmonster


Let me break this down piece by piece:

"Iran's nutjob Prez has already clearly stated his intent to bring on the end of the world to release the 12th Imam. "

Let's see a reliable source to this effect. If so, then aid the Iranian people is removing him from power.

"Iran is a threat to the entire planet........to deny that is total IGNORANCE"

A comment with no basis in fact. Sounds like something Cheney would say.

Originally posted by tyranny22
reply to post by Vanguard223

 

I've already stated my case. If you fail to see the problem, then there must be no problem for you.

The same can be said for your case. Cite one incident when radical islam infringed upon your freedoms ... other than airport security.

Um...they attacked my country, flew airliners into American buildings and have murdered thousands of Westerners since the late 70's. Without radical Islam, we wouldn't have invaded Afghanistan and we would have been out of Iraq a long time ago, after Saddam was defeated.

Were you really being serious? It's questions like that which make the left appear to be lunatics who's thought processes are not based in the real world.

reply to post by Vanguard223


No, seriously. can you name a single instance when radical islam inflicted upon your freedom?

reply to post by Vanguard223


I’ll address point by point:

1)You missed the point. Which is that a “war on Terrorism” can go on forever, as long as there are “terrorists” hiding under every rock.

2)You didn’t read what I said which was ONE of the countries had nothing to do with 9/11. But since you decided to go that route the Taliban said they would hand over Bin Laden if the US provided proof of his guilt. The US refused. For Iraq, you’re using a tired argument. The Saddam firing on aircraft story is dubious as is using violations of UN Resolutions as an excuse for an invasion.

3)Let’s see… the Patriot violates the 4th & 6h amendments. Nothing dramatic about that. As long as the President declares someone an enemy combatant, their rights are basically null and void.

4)War is hell. No argument. I suggesting researching what Henry Kissinger amongst others have said about war. The real losers are the lower and middle classes.

5)The reason Iraq is a mess is because of the invasion. No “terrorists” whoever they may be were there pre invasion.

6)Our border’s are wide open, as our are nuclear and chemical power plant administrators have complained repeatedly that little’s been done to secure their facilities, not to mention the ongoing fear mongering by Cheney, Chertoff, & Rick Santorum, and others. The idea that "were fighting them over there so we don't have to fight them here" is suspicious at best. Especially coming from an adminstration that lies about everything.

7)I try not to assume anything or call names in these discussion but your response to what I said about 9/11 is about as ignorant and childish as they get. Here’s where I stand. I have been researching 9/11 since it happened. For the first year and a half, I didn’t so much as question the official story. I continue to research the topic to this day. I am familiar with all of the alternative theories (BTW: There’s no alien theory. So be mature & leave that out of the discussion). I am familiar with the “debunkers” replies. A few are legit, others, downright pathetic. Bottom line: There is still a great deal to be known about that day. If you can’t accept that, that’s for you to deal with.

8)You’re resorting to the “I know you are but what am I defense.”

reply to post by tyranny22


Uh, what are you talking about?

reply to post by Vanguard223



3,000 Americans were mudered on 9/11. That's understood. But saying that islamic terrorist have murdered thousands of westerners since the 70's (excluding 9/11) is pushing it. PSeaking of death tolls. Should be discuss the number of civilians the US has slaughered since the 1970's. It numbers around 1 million in Vietnam alone.

Why does every Bushie refer to anyone who disagrees with them as a leftist....Sean Hannity & Druggie Limbaugh teach you that one?

reply to post by Jaruseleh


You're right, we invaded Iraq because of WMD's. WMD's which didn't exist. WMD's that the Bush regime flat out lied about.

Originally posted by malcolmdelaney
reply to post by Vanguard223

 

I’ll address point by point:

1)You missed the point. Which is that a “war on Terrorism” can go on forever, as long as there are “terrorists” hiding under every rock.

2)You didn’t read what I said which was ONE of the countries had nothing to do with 9/11. But since you decided to go that route the Taliban said they would hand over Bin Laden if the US provided proof of his guilt. The US refused. For Iraq, you’re using a tired argument. The Saddam firing on aircraft story is dubious as is using violations of UN Resolutions as an excuse for an invasion.

3)Let’s see… the Patriot violates the 4th & 6h amendments. Nothing dramatic about that. As long as the President declares someone an enemy combatant, their rights are basically null and void.

4)War is hell. No argument. I suggesting researching what Henry Kissinger amongst others have said about war. The real losers are the lower and middle classes.

5)The reason Iraq is a mess is because of the invasion. No “terrorists” whoever they may be were there pre invasion.

6)Our border’s are wide open, as our are nuclear and chemical power plant administrators have complained repeatedly that little’s been done to secure their facilities, not to mention the ongoing fear mongering by Cheney, Chertoff, & Rick Santorum, and others. The idea that "were fighting them over there so we don't have to fight them here" is suspicious at best. Especially coming from an adminstration that lies about everything.

7)I try not to assume anything or call names in these discussion but your response to what I said about 9/11 is about as ignorant and childish as they get. Here’s where I stand. I have been researching 9/11 since it happened. For the first year and a half, I didn’t so much as question the official story. I continue to research the topic to this day. I am familiar with all of the alternative theories (BTW: There’s no alien theory. So be mature & leave that out of the discussion). I am familiar with the “debunkers” replies. A few are legit, others, downright pathetic. Bottom line: There is still a great deal to be known about that day. If you can’t accept that, that’s for you to deal with.

8)You’re resorting to the “I know you are but what am I defense.”

I'll reply point by point as well...

1. Regardless of wether you choose to call it a "war" on terror or not, the fact remains that we are working to find and kill people who commit terrorist acts. I couldn't care less if it was called the "war on bananas" as long as we're actively seeking to locate and destroy the people who would commit the acts they do.

2. Osama Bin Laden had been proven to be the leader of Al Qaeda. He had already been tied to the bombings of embassies and the U.S.S. Cole. The proof was already on the table.....he claimed responsibility for these acts himself. We had plenty of reason to go in and get Osama without having to provide MORE proof to the likes of the Taliban.

3. The president doesn't declare anyone an enemy combatant. The troops and agents in the field do. Second guessing wether someone is an enemy combatant or not, 6 months down the road and thousands of miles away from where the incident took places is just silly. Bush does not go to Gitmo, point at some poor sap in an orange jumpsuit and say "THAT is an enemy combatant." The guy in the orange jumpsuit was determined to be an enemy combatant in Afghaninstan by U.S. forces who were probably coming under fire from that guy.

4. I'd argue that the real losers are the innocent people who have a war going on in their back yard.

Continued...

6)Our border’s are wide open, as our are nuclear and chemical power plant administrators have complained repeatedly that little’s been done to secure their facilities, not to mention the ongoing fear mongering by Cheney, Chertoff, & Rick Santorum, and others. The idea that "were fighting them over there so we don't have to fight them here" is suspicious at best. Especially coming from an adminstration that lies about everything.

7)I try not to assume anything or call names in these discussion but your response to what I said about 9/11 is about as ignorant and childish as they get. Here’s where I stand. I have been researching 9/11 since it happened. For the first year and a half, I didn’t so much as question the official story. I continue to research the topic to this day. I am familiar with all of the alternative theories (BTW: There’s no alien theory. So be mature & leave that out of the discussion). I am familiar with the “debunkers” replies. A few are legit, others, downright pathetic. Bottom line: There is still a great deal to be known about that day. If you can’t accept that, that’s for you to deal with.

8)You’re resorting to the “I know you are but what am I defense.”

6. I agree, our border is wide open and we need to seal it up. I have no doubt that potential terrorists have already crossed into this country.

7. There is still a great deal that is unknown about Pearl Harbor too but I don't think the government is behind it. Conspiracy theories start out slow and build momentem as people develope more fanciful stories over time. Conspirasists tend to feed off of one another in a frenzy. This is why you are seeing more "evidence" that the government was behind 9/11, not because there is actual evidence. Also, my calling people foolish is not childish. It does however show that I have a general lack of respect for people who make things up and outright lie in order to try to point the finger in a direction it should not be pointed. Me thinking that SOME of your ideas are foolish does not make me less mature.

8. I thought it was more of an "I'm rubber, you're glue..." defense.

Originally posted by Vanguard223
Speaking of not allowing free speech....

But I agree....Bush is too liberal.

I will tell you only once. You will abide by the Terms and conditions of this site and by moderator advice. Only conspiracy discussion is allowed on ATS. Political bickering will remain on AbovePolitics (which is also part of the above network). That's why we created that forum.

And you're right. There is no free speech. You can't say anything you want on any privately owned website on the internet. If you didn't know that before, well now you know.

Originally posted by malcolmdelaney
reply to post by Vanguard223

 

3,000 Americans were mudered on 9/11. That's understood. But saying that islamic terrorist have murdered thousands of westerners since the 70's (excluding 9/11) is pushing it. PSeaking of death tolls. Should be discuss the number of civilians the US has slaughered since the 1970's. It numbers around 1 million in Vietnam alone.

Why does every Bushie refer to anyone who disagrees with them as a leftist....Sean Hannity & Druggie Limbaugh teach you that one?

So, you want to discount the 3000+ who were killed on 9/11, like that wasn't part of terrorism? Even if you do discount those numbers, I'll stick to my guns with the "thousands" comment. 300+ Marines in Beirut, all the bombings in Europe in the 80's, the bombing of the Pan Am flight over Scottland, the bombing of embassies in Keny and Tanzania, the kidnap and murder of Westerners in Beirut, the bombing of the U.S.S. Cole, the FIRST WTC bombing, etc, etc, ad nausium.

I'm not a "Bushie". I want the man out of office. Nor do I listen to Sean Hannity or Limbaugh. I just choose to live in the real world and not some fantasy land where common sense is an alien concept.

Originally posted by malcolmdelaney

Why does every Bushie refer to anyone who disagrees with them as a leftist....Sean Hannity & Druggie Limbaugh teach you that one?

My advice to Vanguard applies to you as well. Political name calling will only be allowed on AbovePolitics.

reply to post by TheBandit795



This is a serious question.

Am I allowed to disagree that 9/11 was a U.S. government conspiracy or do you only allow posts that agree that it was a conspiracy?

It seems to me that any talk of government could be deemed "political" and therefore to be in violation of the terms of usage of this site. There are lots of people in this thread criticizing the government without being warned about being "political". Am I not permitted to provide the other side of the argument? If not, then I really don't want to be part of this community and you should probably just go ahead and ban me now. My mistake, I thought this was a discussion board where ALL opinions could be heard, not just opinions the moderators agree with.

Oh...I get it...you don't want me using terms like "liberal" or "leftist".

I can stop doing that.

Oh, and Bandit...you are endorsing a politician in your signature.

Originally posted by Vanguard223
Only an idiot would call Abu Ghaib torture.

Only a inhuman fool would consider it anything other.

You obviously don't know what real torture is.

So as long as 'you' torture people in more humane ways than 'your' enemies does your 'better' than they are? Are a you a better man for only kicking someone on the ground once?

Ask some of the guys who spent time in the Hanoi Hilton what torture is, none of them will say "they put panties on my head" or "they made me stand naked with other men while they took pictures".

They did not go New York to find those man and while i have real compassion for people who go to other countries to shoot ( the same type of compassion i have for puppies that get run over in busy streets) and fire bomb villages and then get captured and tortured you can understand how i think they could have avoided it by NOT GOING THERE IN THE FIRST PLACE.

Should all Iraqi's have left Iraq to avoid getting pulled off the street and tortured for doing ABSOLUTELY nothing wrong? Do you realise that the vast majority of those that were captured and are being tortured at various locations around the world by US forces and agents are entirely innocent?

Intellectual dishonesty on your part.

I would say humanity...

Why aren't you saying anything about the American soldiers who WERE kidnapped, tortured and murdered by islamists? Oh...that's right...the terrorists are your friends.

They could have stayed home and thus avoided being captured and tortured by such people. Instead they thought they were better off taking part in a illegal war than risking imprisonment for refusing to serve... These are CHOICES and if you do not think American servicemen are fit to make them maybe they should not be handed guns and sent to places where they may have to use them.

The invasion was not illegal

It was and this is widely admitted...

and was based on intelligence that EVERYONE was using at the time.

Simply not true. There was never widespread indications ( not even the CIA said so and we know they can lie trough their teeth) that SH had WOMD and certainly non that he was connected to the OBL clan which the FBI apparently do think consider responsible for 9-11.

Even the candy ass democrats agreed that Sadam needed to comply or be removed.

But their not 'candy assed' and democrats have started or continued at least as many wars as republicans have. There is NOTHING pacifist about the democratic part and in thinking that you just expose your vast ignorance of history.

Everyone did. Now left wingers are back peddling on the issue. Again...intellectually dishonest and lies on the part of the left.

And many right wingers as well. What's the difference between the democratic part and the republican part when it comes to bombing innocent people into oblivion?

We can go on and on here? Lets. I'll start by telling you that the U.S. government is not wire tapping citizens in the United States.

They are....

They are not listening in on your calls.

Are you kidding me?

Stop getting your news from chicken little leftist websites.

CNN? FOX? BBC? MSNBC? CBS? I have watched many and have checked the majority of the alphabet soup's web pages. To suggest that any of them can be called 'leftist' is to make it widely known that you have no idea what leftist means and may in fact think that the radical reactionary crazed right wing American ( and really western worlds ) media outlets correspond to anything realistically left.

The wire tapping was occuring on calls orignating outside the United States and going to suspected terrorists homes in other countries, not the U.S.

And you will believe ANYTHING as long as you don't have to question authority.

Please educate yourselves on this issue before spouting off about it. You people are foolish.

Ditto only i think your ignorant rather than foolish.

Americans have the same rights they had before 9/11.

No they do not and that is as well established. It can be argued that these new laws are only being employed against those Americans that are not easily able to defend themselves against government abuse but the laws are certainly there; they may first be taking Americans 'Jews' ( the most exposed part of the society) but eventually you will speak out of turn and it will be your turn.

I have lost zero rights.

And as long as your saying the things you currently are you will have no experience of a loss of rights; a dog on leash does not notice the leash unless he tries to move far enough.

I can still move where I want, when I want without telling the government.

And if that is your measurement of liberty and freedom you must excuse my disappointment...

You are paranoid and delusional.

I wish i was.

Stellar