It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.

Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.

Thank you.

 

Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.

 

US will never let 'friendly-fire' witnesses go to a British court

page: 3
7
<< 1  2    4 >>

log in

join
share:

posted on Aug, 29 2007 @ 07:48 PM
link   
My condolences and even apologies go out to anyone and any nation that was harmed by such tragedies. However, you must understand that it is our job to try our own soldiers. Our military represents our government, and to ensure fairness, we have to conduct our own investigations.

I'm sorry that we can't just hand them over, but our military is one unit - and must regulate itself. Every member represents the whole. If it is found that someone is at fault, I am hopeful that he or she will be punished or otherwise handled accordingly.

[edit on 29-8-2007 by Johnmike]




posted on Aug, 29 2007 @ 07:57 PM
link   

Originally posted by budski

There do seem to be more incidents of FF involving us troops....




Maybe because there ARE more U.S. troops....a lot more. The U.S. does most of the shooting over there. When the Brits call in air support, it's usually a U.S. aircraft dropping the bombs.



posted on Aug, 29 2007 @ 08:17 PM
link   

Originally posted by Johnmike
My condolences and even apologies go out to anyone and any nation that was harmed by such tragedies. However, you must understand that it is our job to try our own soldiers. Our military represents our government, and to ensure fairness, we have to conduct our own investigations.

I'm sorry that we can't just hand them over, but our military is one unit - and must regulate itself. Every member represents the whole. If it is found that someone is at fault, I am hopeful that he or she will be punished or otherwise handled accordingly.

[edit on 29-8-2007 by Johnmike]


Oh, that's nice. It took a helluva lot of Googling just to find out the pilots name that killed 4 and wounded more Canadian soldiers in Afghanistan in 2002. Want to know the result of the US military's reaction?


On September 11, 2002, Schmidt and Umbach were officially charged with 4 counts of negligent manslaughter, 8 counts of aggravated assault, and 1 count of dereliction of duty, but Schmidt's charges were later reduced (on June 30, 2003) to dereliction of duty.


en.wikipedia.org...

$8000 fine. That's $2000 per life taken, not to mention the wounded. With allies like these, do we need enemies?

Yeah, yeah, let's leave it up to the US military tribunals. They're REALLY fair.



posted on Aug, 29 2007 @ 09:13 PM
link   
Perhaps I shouldn't be, after all, I have been around ATS for a while now, but I am completely amazed at the lack of reading comprehension shown by those who seem to consider themselves intelligent. No one is talking about trying US service personnel here.

From the original article:

In an official document seen by this newspaper, the Ministry of Defence makes clear that all requests for US service personnel to give evidence at British inquests will be turned down. The new rules will cover the deaths of the three soldiers killed last week in Afghanistan.

“The US have confirmed categorically that they will not provide witnesses to attend UK inquests,” the document sent to every coroner in England and Wales states. “While coroners may continue to ask for US witnesses to attend . . . they should be aware that there will in all cases be a refusal.”

[emphasis mine]


They refuse to allow their service personnel who have witnessed such events to be called to give evidence. That is quite different to allowing them to be tried in a foreign court.



posted on Aug, 29 2007 @ 09:34 PM
link   

Originally posted by Implosion
That is quite different to allowing them to be tried in a foreign court.


Precisely, I have not read anywhere that the plan was to prosecute them. I can understand a refusal if that was the case. The title of the thread is misrepresentative.



posted on Aug, 30 2007 @ 01:56 AM
link   

Originally posted by Vanguard223
Sorry Europeans but we don't hang our people out in the wind to be tried by kangaroo inquisitions. This was a friendly fire incident and an accident. We don't throw out troops to the wolves for making mistakes...even mistakes as serious as this.


Read the damn article. No ones being tried, its an inquest into what happened. Its designed to help the families of the deceased figure out why their sons aren't coming home and maybe provide some kind of closure to the incident. Remember, these people don't have any kind of peace of mind that their sons died heroes doing what they signed up for - fighting the enemy - instead they have been blown to pieces by a 500lb bomb dropped from an F-15 from their own side.



We are allies and afford you all the same courtesies.


Yes, we all get the same crappy attitude displayed in you opening statement.



I know it's fashionable to hate America but some of you fools are rabid.


If asking for an inquest into the death of our soldiers - your allies - in order to provide closure to the incident and possibly prevent it happening again means that people are "rabid", then frankly, I'm glad to be foaming at the mouth, because I value the lives of the British soldiers out there a damn site more than you do.



Anyone claiming the U.S. does these kind of things on purpose can go straight to hell, you're not thinking rationally.


No one claimed that it happened on purpose. There is a difference between intention and incompetance. The pilot who caused this might be overflying a US unit one day and drop a bomb on them because he's lost it again and can't handle the pressure, or the ground controller who is co-ordinating his bomb run can't read a map properly or the strain of combat has affected his/her ability to perceive the information put infront of them.

Let me put it this way;

Suppose a Tornado GR4 dropped a load of cluster bombs on a US Unit in a "friendly fire" incident, because he was stressed out and killed 5 US servicemen.

Then suppose the families wanted to find out how and why their loved ones hd died and the MOD turned round and said

"You can have our files, but they can never be released publicly because they are secret, and there is no way in hell the aircrew is going to be giving any evidence to you, because we've sorted them out internally, fined them each £1000 (thats $2000 -same as the fines for the Canadians Intrepid mentioned above) per death and sent them to prison for 18 months due to deriliction of duty."

Would you like that?



posted on Aug, 30 2007 @ 03:25 AM
link   
reply to post by Implosion
 


Thank you, that was my point all along.
We werent calling for them to be tried but to attend inquest to provide more info, which could have been held with the public excluded but the stand by the US of not letting their personel even attend an inquest is intolerable



posted on Aug, 30 2007 @ 03:36 AM
link   
neformore

Why don't you read the thread again. Some of you ARE claiming that the U.S. might have done this on purpose. Read.

Those are the people that my post was directed at. Those are the people I have the "crappy attitude" with.

Any loss of life on our side is a sad situation. I'm not sitting here with the attitude of "they're just Brits, who cares.". I view U.S. and British troops through the same lens...they're our guys.



posted on Aug, 30 2007 @ 03:41 AM
link   

Originally posted by andy1033
I always said that bravo two zero was on purpose. There is alot of in fighting between different groups in the military. Even a former english soldier agreed that this may of been done on purpose by the americans(i.e bravo two zero).

Friendly fire is easy to say, but its still killing people.




This is the idiot I was referring to.



posted on Aug, 30 2007 @ 04:23 AM
link   

Originally posted by WestPoint23
I do not know what you expect, the US has launched and promised a thorough investigation and it is currently underway. Something like this cannot be resolved in a matter of days or hours, it will take a significant amount of time. And far as I'm aware the British have also not released any new information besides releasing press statements in relation to the incident.

Well no offence I would prefer if our own people could ask the pilots questions....




You mean the case involving the A-10 Warthog? If so then you should know that the US did sent the classified tape to the British (albeit after some time) for their inquest, we simply did not want it to be made public. Which it was...

Why was the tape classified though? Did it contain military sensitive material or is it because it shows the actual incident.



That case I can agree with, given the circumstance is was badly mishandled and not proper. However we are in the process of trying to correct that mistake.

Well your forgive us for being rather uneasy about not being able to question your pilots..



Yes, during the War of 1812 against the British and their colonies, i.e. Canada. The British were using their Canadian colony to launch attacks into the continental United States. Frankly though I don't see how this relates...

Just reminding you of your history...



posted on Aug, 30 2007 @ 05:05 AM
link   

Originally posted by WestPoint23
Some are, courtesy of the US military. We do not recognize the ICC in order to keep people like you and others from ever having a say in cases involving US military personnel. The standards must be fair, equal and unbiased.


i.e

"we American's think we are above international law"

That's the problem here.

Sadly, the case involved US military personnel taking the lives of British soldiers. It's not just a American case.

But how can the British case come to a conclusion when Washington is refusing to take part



posted on Aug, 30 2007 @ 05:31 AM
link   

Originally posted by Chorlton

About time to end this 'special relationship' ??


We should have ended it the very moment this happened,

RAF Tornado shot down by US missile

These friendly fire incidents can no way be justified, be passed off as accidents or covered up. The families of those involved have every right to see the people responsible for their relatives murder, because that's what it is. In this day and age, with all our fancy technology and gadgets, friendly fire should be unheard of.

We followed the US into the Middle East and are now paying the ultimate price, losing men and women for no reason, whether it be to the enemy or friendlies doesn't matter.

Just another case of us lying down and taking whatever the US chooses to throw at us. They have to realise that eventually, a pet will attack those that believe it has control over it.



posted on Aug, 30 2007 @ 05:46 AM
link   


Holding meaningless "hearings" for more "evidence" when there will not be another trial is not only redundant but also a political and public show. I agree that the US should share all information it gains with the UK. however I do not agree with sending our service members to the UK after the fact for "inquest" and hearings...


Tell that to the families, who want to know the truth, not some half-baked investigation, that has so much holes in it, you could drive a truck through it. Dont they have the right to know.




If for some reason the information, findings and reports prepared by the US military is not satisfactory then perhaps a UK delegation can come to the states and ask a few private questions to the troops involved.


Would they be allowed to do this, or would the D.O.D. or the Pentagon block their every move, again a cover up.



So I take it you have already convicted them?


Ask the families that, see their reaction. Maybe that will tell you weither or not they have already convicted them or not.




I do not know what you expect, the US has launched and promised a thorough investigation and it is currently underway.


I for one wont be holding my breath for an investigation, regarding this incident. Will be another hogwash investigation like all the others.

Also I find it strange that this is not headline news in here in the UK. Have not heard much more on this case. The Gov pulling strings to stop the News Channels from broadcasting this.



posted on Aug, 30 2007 @ 08:43 AM
link   

Originally posted by Terra Nuovo Umanita
reply to post by quintar
 


is that information from Canadian military personnel or American?


Canadian military personnel.



posted on Aug, 30 2007 @ 09:54 AM
link   
reply to post by quintar
 


Canadian Military Law Standards are different



posted on Aug, 30 2007 @ 11:00 AM
link   
I think we shouldn't end the bond with the U.S but instead we should take our rightful place as the most powerful nation on the earth! After all, we are probably just about the most proud and opinionated people and we have the best trained army plus the S.A.S could probably kill all americans in a week if they wanted to cos they train harder than anyone!



posted on Aug, 30 2007 @ 12:08 PM
link   
A coroner in England & Wales is a civilian independent judicial officer who is charged with the responsibility of investigating unnatural or suspicious deaths.

That's all he does. And there seems to be genuine confusion here about trials and witnesses and whatever. And nothing but paranoid nonsense about “handing over” US servicemen to “foreign” courts. The coroner in England & Wales HAS to investigate these cases. It's the law. And isn't it the rule of law that our guys are supposed to be in Afghanistan to uphold ?

At the moment the position of the US Government/military is as follows - “we don't care what your laws say”. What a chaotic world we'd be living in if we all followed that logic.

Consider what the coroner does in a typical civilian case.

If an industrial accident happens and a guy gets killed the coroner will establish an inquest to determine why the guy died. He can summon witnesses to the accident, doctors and nurses who gave medical assistance, request company documents to check up on whether health & safety guidelines were adhered to etc etc. All to establish why the guy died. Following determination of the reasons for the death he can recommend improvements to working practices and in cases where criminality is suspected can refer his findings on to the Crown Prosecution Service for them to consider. Although he does have authority to compel individuals to attend & testify he does not have authority to detain them.

A coroner is completely independent. He's the only person who can direct his line of inquiry. He's above politics and military influence. His powers are judicial and are exercised as such.

And it's hugely insulting to the Coroner Service to suggest that an individual Coroner would be swayed towards anti-Americanism. Because he's charged with investigating all friendly fire incidents - and that includes Brit on Brit.

Having said all that, I do consider the British system needs changing. It is peculiar that following the suspicious death of a British serviceman that both a military board of inquiry and a coroners inquiry are held. A good case could probably be made that deaths in such circumstances could best be investigated by a dedicated military coroner with all the judicial powers of his civilian counterpart, perhaps as head of the military board of inquiry. If such a service were established it may encourage the US military to be rather more forthcoming when it comes to providing witnesses & evidence and may also reassure families here that his final report & recommendations are wholly independent of external influence and that “nothing has been covered up”.



posted on Aug, 30 2007 @ 12:27 PM
link   

Originally posted by devilwasp
Why was the tape classified though? Did it contain military sensitive material or is it because it shows the actual incident.


ALL HUD films are classified because it involves information about the weapons system being used. If they're released they are sanitized first. That's why you see so many HUD films with black boxes over some areas of the display.


Originally posted by intrepid
Oh, that's nice. It took a helluva lot of Googling just to find out the pilots name that killed 4 and wounded more Canadian soldiers in Afghanistan in 2002. Want to know the result of the US military's reaction?


On September 11, 2002, Schmidt and Umbach were officially charged with 4 counts of negligent manslaughter, 8 counts of aggravated assault, and 1 count of dereliction of duty, but Schmidt's charges were later reduced (on June 30, 2003) to dereliction of duty.


en.wikipedia.org...

$8000 fine. That's $2000 per life taken, not to mention the wounded. With allies like these, do we need enemies?

Yeah, yeah, let's leave it up to the US military tribunals. They're REALLY fair.


And let's look at the other tribunals from Abu Ghraib and other things going on in Iraq. People have gotten years in prison for incidents that didn't even involve someone dying, and if there WAS someone killed they got even harsher penalties. The judgement of the ONE tribunal you quoted was a farce, I agree, but let's not brand ALL tribunals with the same brush and say they're ALL going to hand down unfair judgements.



posted on Aug, 30 2007 @ 12:49 PM
link   
Folks,
The Monday Morning QBing on this one is beyond belief.

Friendly Fire is a fact of life, even with all of our high tech benefits today. There is simply no way to avoid it, all you can do is try to minimize it.

There is no reason for the US pilots to be questioned in this case. They already have the audio, radar tapes, and eyewitness accounts. What more do you need?

Rest assured there will be a complete and total investigation done by the US military. Those of you who do not like that fact will just have to accept it.

Is it possible that the UK forces relayed an incorrect set of coordinates to the US pilots? Of course that never crossed anyone's mind here, right? Nope, it is far easier to go after the US than accept the possiblilty that THEY may have been the ones who made the mistake.

Does anyone know specifically what kind of ordnance was dropped?



posted on Aug, 30 2007 @ 12:50 PM
link   
These things happen in war but an inquest would be good for the family and to help prevent such things happening in the future.



new topics

top topics



 
7
<< 1  2    4 >>

log in

join