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Originally posted by whirlwind
Consider that those emotions are not imperfections.
Of course He is perfect. He sets the standards for perfection, not us.
Again, I ask you to place yourself in His position. He has a child that He has loved from the day he was born. He coddled him, laid awake with Him when he was ill, comforted him when he was hurt, provided a home, food, clothing and yet.......that child ignored Him, spent time with other father figures, derided everything He stood for, everything He taught him.
How would you feel? Well....So does He. Why does He? Because He has emotions, just like us.
He allows things to happen, even though He could stop it at any time, because He wants your love but it must be freely given.
That is why you and I are on this earth now. He wants to know who does and does not love Him.
Originally posted by AncientVoid
reply to post by whirlwind
I don't get your last part. It is saying you shouldn't mix with other religion?
what happens to those who are not wicked, but don't believe in god?
examples being gandhi and einstein.
Originally posted by whirlwind
Consider that those emotions are not imperfections.
Madness -
....hatred and anger are two of the most corrosive forces on the planet... of course i'm going to consider them imperfections..... this, once more, is special pleading....show me how hatred isn't an imperfection, and i'll stop considering it as such. don't just tell me to not consider it that way.
WW -
Of course He is perfect. He sets the standards for perfection, not us.
Madness -
that's kind of backwards....
WW -
Again, I ask you to place yourself in His position. He has a child that He has loved from the day he was born. He coddled him, laid awake with Him when he was ill, comforted him when he was hurt, provided a home, food, clothing and yet.......that child ignored Him, spent time with other father figures, derided everything He stood for, everything He taught him.
How would you feel? Well....So does He. Why does He? Because He has emotions, just like us.
Madness -
...but again, god let all of this happen. should've seen it coming and prepared for the worst.
this would be the immature god... acting like a dumb teenager, not a father.
WW -
He allows things to happen, even though He could stop it at any time, because He wants your love but it must be freely given.
Madness -
ya know, making sure hurricanes, earthquakes, mudslides, famine, tsunamis, and volcanic eruptions would have no bearing on anyone's belief...
especially since we wouldn't realize that anything was different in the first place.
WW -
That is why you and I are on this earth now. He wants to know who does and does not love Him.
Madness -
...see, the thing is that i don't "not love" him... i don't believe said being exists.
to love something, i must be convinced that it exists first
Originally posted by whirlwind
God feels them, we feel them.
They are what they are no matter what we consider them.
Perhaps the lesson is to learn to recognize if the anger and or hatred is justified and requires a reaction. At the very least, so that we don't again allow the event that put us in that frame of mind to happen again.
By that do you mean we should tell Him what perfection is?
He gave us free will. That could mean He gives us enough rope to hang ourselves or enough to pull ourselves to safety. Our choice.
Things happen, terrible things. This is not heaven and we have to deal with it. We have to try to change what we can and plow through the rest. You are blaming a God you don't believe in. If you do that then you must also credit Him for the wonderful things. Do you?
We're both trying, as hard as we can, until then know that He loves you.
you said they'll be "taught" ...what?
what will they be taught and who will be doing the teaching?
why would these two visionaries of humanity need anyone to teach them anything....(Einstein & Ghandi)
Originally posted by whirlwind
God feels them, we feel them.....They are what they are no matter what we consider them.
Madness -
again, my point on why your deity of choice isn't a perfect being.....yes... in an imperfect being illogical reactions such as hatred exist.
WW -
Perhaps the lesson is to learn to recognize if the anger and or hatred is justified and requires a reaction. At the very least, so that we don't again allow the event that put us in that frame of mind to happen again.
Madness -
there isn't justifiable hate.. maybe a bit of justifiable anger... but not hatred...and again, you've yet to show how a being that can hate is perfect.
WW -
He gave us free will. That could mean He gives us enough rope to hang ourselves or enough to pull ourselves to safety. Our choice.
Madness -
then said being should feel no anger or hatred at our use for it... especially since, as an omniscient being, it would immediately know what our choice would be....
wait, we can't have both an omniscient deity and free will!
it wouldn't make sense that a being could create a universe knowing full well everything that would happen ever and still have free will...
WW -
Things happen, terrible things. This is not heaven and we have to deal with it. We have to try to change what we can and plow through the rest. You are blaming a God you don't believe in. If you do that then you must also credit Him for the wonderful things. Do you?
Madness -
i'm not blaming anything, i'm pointing out that your reasoning is faulty and was pointing out the fault in it.
you said it's a free will thing, i pointed out that nature has no will whatsoever and god should stop those things from happening if your postulates are right.
WW -
We're both trying, as hard as we can, until then know that He loves you.
Madness -
we? as in you and god? sorry to break it to you, but all the evidence points towards you wasting your time... ya know, cause there isn't any evidence to show that your partner exists.
Originally posted by whirlwind
My "deity of choice" is the only Deity and He is perfect. Perfect is what He decides it will be, not us.
Again, I have say that He decides what is and isn't perfect. He instilled these emotions and He Himself has these emotions. I thought about this conversation about emotions last night and this is what I believe it is all about. (my opinion only)
Here He tells us that when we "put off the old man", meaning we have a new spirit when we accept Christ, we will, or should, get rid of anger, wrath, etc. and instead be kind and humble.
So...this tells me that we are born into this age with these emotions. Perhaps they were put there by God as we have to deal with evil while in this age. He Himself feels these things against those, in this age, who do not follow Him. Could this mean that in the next age these bad emotions, such as hate, anger, jealousy, etc. won't be needed? I think so but until then they appear to be here to stay and maybe they need to be.
Also, He controls the lives of His elect but He will NOT interfere with those of free will (unless they ask). It must be their choice.
Nature doesn't have free will and God can stop those things but apparently He chooses not to.
This isn't heaven and those turmoils of nature are one of the things we will have to make it through. I believe it is because of what happened in the first age. We'll see one day.
There is so much there.....You just can't see it yet.
Originally posted by whirlwind
My "deity of choice" is the only Deity and He is perfect. Perfect is what He decides it will be, not us.
Madness -
well, that's just an opinion. you can't back it up with any evidence, so please preface such statements with "I believe" it's actually quite humble to do so
WW -
Again, I have say that He decides what is and isn't perfect. He instilled these emotions and He Himself has these emotions. I thought about this conversation about emotions last night and this is what I believe it is all about. (my opinion only)
Madness -
...no, anger and hatred are actually evolutionary adaptations that we've since grown no real use for.
WW -
Here He tells us that when we "put off the old man", meaning we have a new spirit when we accept Christ, we will, or should, get rid of anger, wrath, etc. and instead be kind and humble.
Madness -
yeah, i don't take much stock in the words of someone who so hypocritically and unhumbly stated that men are greater than women
WW -
So...this tells me that we are born into this age with these emotions. Perhaps they were put there by God as we have to deal with evil while in this age. He Himself feels these things against those, in this age, who do not follow Him. Could this mean that in the next age these bad emotions, such as hate, anger, jealousy, etc. won't be needed? I think so but until then they appear to be here to stay and maybe they need to be.
Madness -
perhaps... could this... i think...
that's really all you have. you don't have evidence, you have personal judgments that lack it
WW -
If you gave the choice to your child to work for a living or steal for a living and at the same time letting him know what the full repercussions of his choice would be and he selected being a thief - wouldn't you be angry? He may know what we will do but always there is hope we won't.
Madness -
...if there is hope we won't, god knows we won't.
god can't hope something won't happen if god is omniscient... all-knowing beings tend to know everything.
WW -
Also, He controls the lives of His elect but He will NOT interfere with those of free will (unless they ask). It must be their choice.
Madness -
...yeah, you're ignoring the free-will versus omniscience argument.
WW -
Nature doesn't have free will and God can stop those things but apparently He chooses not to.
Madness -
then god is cruel.
WW -
This isn't heaven and those turmoils of nature are one of the things we will have to make it through. I believe it is because of what happened in the first age. We'll see one day.
Madness -
...again "i believe"
that's all you seem to have.
WW -
There is so much there.....You just can't see it yet.
Madness -
how positively arrogant of you.
i'm actually seeing quite a bit, like what is actually there.
Originally posted by whirlwind
I use "I believe" if it is my opinion but the above statement doesn't qualify for that because I KNOW. He is the only God.
Originally posted by whirlwind
If you gave the choice to your child to work for a living or steal for a living and at the same time letting him know what the full repercussions of his choice would be and he selected being a thief - wouldn't you be angry? He may know what we will do but always there is hope we won't.
Originally posted by whirlwind
Also, He controls the lives of His elect but He will NOT interfere with those of free will (unless they ask). It must be their choice.
Originally posted by whirlwind
Everyone will have to struggle with that on their own. Death and destruction is difficult to deal with and understand. My belief is that His main focus is that of our souls, not so much our flesh lives.
Originally posted by whirlwind
There is a fine line between arrogance and being very certain. I'm not arrogant.
Originally posted by AncientVoid
Originally posted by whirlwind
I use "I believe" if it is my opinion but the above statement doesn't qualify for that because I KNOW. He is the only God.
So.... How do you know? where did you get your 'facts' from? Don't tell me... bible?
Originally posted by whirlwind
If you gave the choice to your child to work for a living or steal for a living and at the same time letting him know what the full repercussions of his choice would be and he selected being a thief - wouldn't you be angry? He may know what we will do but always there is hope we won't.
Originally posted by whirlwind
Also, He controls the lives of His elect but He will NOT interfere with those of free will (unless they ask). It must be their choice.
So do we get to chose to goto heaven or hell? No.. so no free will. It's like saying to a child, do this and die, while I'm at it I'll make you burn in hell...
Why doesn't he let us chose? After all we have 'free-will'. If he's stupid enough to stop all the suffering and don't, then why should people goto hell because they 'sinned'? The biggest sin of all is by 'god'.
Originally posted by whirlwind
Everyone will have to struggle with that on their own. Death and destruction is difficult to deal with and understand. My belief is that His main focus is that of our souls, not so much our flesh lives.
Originally posted by whirlwind
There is a fine line between arrogance and being very certain. I'm not arrogant.
Hmm doesn't it sound like the words of an arrogant person? "I'm not arrogant"
[edit on 19-9-2007 by AncientVoid]
Originally posted by whirlwind
I use "I believe" if it is my opinion but the above statement doesn't qualify for that because I KNOW. He is the only God.
I don't believe those emotions had to evolve. They have always been with us. I wish there was no need for them but I humbly say, perhaps there still is a need for anger, etc. (my opinion only, of course)...lol
The reason I say that is that Cain slew his brother Abel at the beginning so those emotions aren't new.
Shouldn't that be, in your humble opinion you believe that to be the case?
Of course these are just personal ideas. How in the world could one prove what emotions are about?
We don't know, now do we? He is what He is. He is the I AM which is whatever He is. It isn't for us to know the mind of God.
I know that the statement I made about God in the lives of His elect and those of free will is true. Other than that I can't add to the argument.
Everyone will have to struggle with that on their own. Death and destruction is difficult to deal with and understand. My belief is that His main focus is that of our souls, not so much our flesh lives.
Sorry but that is all I can offer on certain topics.
There is a fine line between arrogance and being very certain. I'm not arrogant.
Originally posted by whirlwind
Of course these are just personal ideas. How in the world could one prove what emotions are about?
Originally posted by whirlwind
I use "I believe" if it is my opinion but the above statement doesn't qualify for that because I KNOW. He is the only God.
Madness -
no, you don't. you believe. knowledge is something that can be backed up, you cannot defend that statement outside the confines of religious dogma. it is purely a hypothesis.
I don't believe those emotions had to evolve. They have always been with us. I wish there was no need for them but I humbly say, perhaps there still is a need for anger, etc. (my opinion only, of course)...lol
EMOTION had to evolve, not just those emotions.
WW -The reason I say that is that Cain slew his brother Abel at the beginning so those emotions aren't new.
Madness -
...those two people didn't exist unless you can prove they did.
and hominids were around for a few million years prior to the supposed time period of that.
Of course these are just personal ideas. How in the world could one prove what emotions are about?
Madness -
...emotions can be proven to be products of evolution. survival mechanisms that formed over the course of 4 billion years.
We don't know, now do we? He is what He is. He is the I AM which is whatever He is. It isn't for us to know the mind of God.
you're avoiding the point. i'm saying that free will and omniscience are contradictory.
Everyone will have to struggle with that on their own. Death and destruction is difficult to deal with and understand. My belief is that His main focus is that of our souls, not so much our flesh lives.
Madness -
....why must you participate in special pleading for an all powerful being?
honestly, the only options i can see for not stopping those disasters are cruelty, apathy, or impotence...
lack of focus on an issue wouldn't be an issue for an omni^3
There is a fine line between arrogance and being very certain. I'm not arrogant.
to be certain of something you cannot prove is inherently arrogant
Originally posted by whirlwind
Of course these are just personal ideas. How in the world could one prove what emotions are about?
Emotions....
What gives an organism motivation and goal-directed behaviour. Assess differences between goals (internal) and reality (external). Can simply be viewed as a mechanism of reward and punishment.
We can go back to William James for a basic view of emotion - an evolutionary adaptive behavioural and physiological response tendency.
Take away emotion, and people become not so much Spock-like, but like a ship without a motivational rudder.
Originally posted by whirlwind
Emotion is a response tendency but why do you believe it had to evolve?