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Ignorance and God

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posted on Sep, 18 2007 @ 07:48 AM
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Originally posted by whirlwind
Consider that those emotions are not imperfections.


....hatred and anger are two of the most corrosive forces on the planet... of course i'm going to consider them imperfections.

this, once more, is special pleading.
show me how hatred isn't an imperfection, and i'll stop considering it as such. don't just tell me to not consider it that way.



Of course He is perfect. He sets the standards for perfection, not us.


that's kind of backwards....



Again, I ask you to place yourself in His position. He has a child that He has loved from the day he was born. He coddled him, laid awake with Him when he was ill, comforted him when he was hurt, provided a home, food, clothing and yet.......that child ignored Him, spent time with other father figures, derided everything He stood for, everything He taught him.

How would you feel? Well....So does He. Why does He? Because He has emotions, just like us.


...but again, god let all of this happen. should've seen it coming and prepared for the worst.
this would be the immature god... acting like a dumb teenager, not a father.



He allows things to happen, even though He could stop it at any time, because He wants your love but it must be freely given.


ya know, making sure hurricanes, earthquakes, mudslides, famine, tsunamis, and volcanic eruptions would have no bearing on anyone's belief...
especially since we wouldn't realize that anything was different in the first place.




That is why you and I are on this earth now. He wants to know who does and does not love Him.


...see, the thing is that i don't "not love" him... i don't believe said being exists.
to love something, i must be convinced that it exists first




posted on Sep, 18 2007 @ 07:50 AM
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reply to post by depth om
 


what happens to those who are not wicked, but don't believe in god?

examples being gandhi and einstein.



posted on Sep, 18 2007 @ 08:00 AM
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Originally posted by AncientVoid
reply to post by whirlwind
 


I don't get your last part. It is saying you shouldn't mix with other religion?


Yes, that is what He is saying. He compares idolatry (worship of other gods) to adultery (cheating on your spouse). We would know how a cheating spouse would feel and He compares that to how He feels if we follow other religions.

That is His major warning throughout the Bible.



Exodus 20:2 I am the Lord thy God, Which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.

3.Thou shalt have no other gods before Me.

4.Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

5.Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate
Me;




Those were the first three of the ten commandments. He is very serious about staying away from other religions.

That warning goes through Revelation where we are warned that Satan comes first, pretending to be Christ, we must know that and not follow him.
We must remain a "chaste virgin" - male or female, meaning don't fall for false religions.


........Whirlwind



posted on Sep, 18 2007 @ 11:06 AM
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reply to post by madnessinmysoul
 



what happens to those who are not wicked, but don't believe in god?

examples being gandhi and einstein.




Matthew 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.


The word damned as used there is condemned. Condemned to what? They are considered dead - spiritually dead:

Rev.20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.


They, such as Ghandi and Einstein as well as all others that did not "believeth" in Christ are part of the "spiritually dead" and will be taught during the millennium. Then:

Rev.20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

8.And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth.

9........And fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

10.And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

15.And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.


That is what God tells us will happen.


.........Whirlwind



posted on Sep, 18 2007 @ 11:32 AM
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reply to post by madnessinmysoul
 



Originally posted by whirlwind
Consider that those emotions are not imperfections.

Madness -
....hatred and anger are two of the most corrosive forces on the planet... of course i'm going to consider them imperfections..... this, once more, is special pleading....show me how hatred isn't an imperfection, and i'll stop considering it as such. don't just tell me to not consider it that way.



God feels them, we feel them. They are what they are no matter what we consider them. Perhaps the lesson is to learn to recognize if the anger and or hatred is justified and requires a reaction. At the very least, so that we don't again allow the event that put us in that frame of mind to happen again.



WW -
Of course He is perfect. He sets the standards for perfection, not us.

Madness -
that's kind of backwards....


By that do you mean we should tell Him what perfection is?


WW -
Again, I ask you to place yourself in His position. He has a child that He has loved from the day he was born. He coddled him, laid awake with Him when he was ill, comforted him when he was hurt, provided a home, food, clothing and yet.......that child ignored Him, spent time with other father figures, derided everything He stood for, everything He taught him.

How would you feel? Well....So does He. Why does He? Because He has emotions, just like us.

Madness -
...but again, god let all of this happen. should've seen it coming and prepared for the worst.
this would be the immature god... acting like a dumb teenager, not a father.


He gave us free will. That could mean He gives us enough rope to hang ourselves or enough to pull ourselves to safety. Our choice.


WW -
He allows things to happen, even though He could stop it at any time, because He wants your love but it must be freely given.

Madness -
ya know, making sure hurricanes, earthquakes, mudslides, famine, tsunamis, and volcanic eruptions would have no bearing on anyone's belief...
especially since we wouldn't realize that anything was different in the first place.


Things happen, terrible things. This is not heaven and we have to deal with it. We have to try to change what we can and plow through the rest. You are blaming a God you don't believe in. If you do that then you must also credit Him for the wonderful things. Do you?


WW -
That is why you and I are on this earth now. He wants to know who does and does not love Him.

Madness -
...see, the thing is that i don't "not love" him... i don't believe said being exists.
to love something, i must be convinced that it exists first


We're both trying, as hard as we can, until then know that He loves you.


...........Whirlwind



posted on Sep, 18 2007 @ 11:33 AM
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reply to post by whirlwind
 


you said they'll be "taught"
what?
what will they be taught and who will be doing the teaching?

why would these two visionaries of humanity need anyone to teach them anything....



posted on Sep, 18 2007 @ 11:46 AM
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Originally posted by whirlwind
God feels them, we feel them.


again, my point on why your deity of choice isn't a perfect being.



They are what they are no matter what we consider them.


yes... in an imperfect being illogical reactions such as hatred exist.



Perhaps the lesson is to learn to recognize if the anger and or hatred is justified and requires a reaction. At the very least, so that we don't again allow the event that put us in that frame of mind to happen again.


there isn't justifiable hate.. maybe a bit of justifiable anger... but not hatred

and again, you've yet to show how a being that can hate is perfect.



By that do you mean we should tell Him what perfection is?


well... if said being is perfect it would be simple to recognize, so yes, we would passively set the standard.

i wouldn't consider jealousy to be something perfect...



He gave us free will. That could mean He gives us enough rope to hang ourselves or enough to pull ourselves to safety. Our choice.


then said being should feel no anger or hatred at our use for it... especially since, as an omniscient being, it would immediately know what our choice would be....
wait, we can't have both an omniscient deity and free will!
it wouldn't make sense that a being could create a universe knowing full well everything that would happen ever and still have free will...



Things happen, terrible things. This is not heaven and we have to deal with it. We have to try to change what we can and plow through the rest. You are blaming a God you don't believe in. If you do that then you must also credit Him for the wonderful things. Do you?


i'm not blaming anything, i'm pointing out that your reasoning is faulty and was pointing out the fault in it.
you said it's a free will thing, i pointed out that nature has no will whatsoever and god should stop those things from happening if your postulates are right.




We're both trying, as hard as we can, until then know that He loves you.


we?
as in you and god?

sorry to break it to you, but all the evidence points towards you wasting your time...
ya know, cause there isn't any evidence to show that your partner exists.



posted on Sep, 18 2007 @ 12:45 PM
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Blind fear doesn't work on most of us but just incase I bought some fire proof floaties. Start the bbq.



posted on Sep, 18 2007 @ 07:07 PM
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reply to post by madnessinmysoul
 



you said they'll be "taught" ...what?
what will they be taught and who will be doing the teaching?

why would these two visionaries of humanity need anyone to teach them anything....(Einstein & Ghandi)


Well....I don't think it will be physics or how to be a really nice guy.

Seriously, I'm really not certain. There is a scripture (I can't remember it) in which Paul tells us that when we become our spirit bodies again we will have full memory. We will recall the first age and know what happened there.

I think it is just discipline. The priest will be teaching what is expected of us to achieve eternal life. The advantage they and we have is that there will only be truth taught. No more 1/2 truths or outright lies and wild tales. Also, they can teach and we can learn without any influence from Satan. Apparently we still have the free will thing going because many will again choose to follow Satan at the end of the millennium....go figure?

Rev.20:4 .....I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

These are those that do not fall for the deceit of Satan in end times. The mark upon the foreheads should be "in" their foreheads - in their minds, meaning they believed him. In their hands is a Hebraism and means they worked for his religious campaign.

20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Dead means spiritually dead.

2:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection; on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.

The "second death" is that of our souls. Those that are priests will teach - that is the duty of a priest.

2:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8.And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.


There will still be many corrupt souls in the world, for a while anyway. Vs.10 tells us what happens to the devil and those corrupt souls and then.....the Great White Throne Judgment.

20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and Him That sat on it, from Whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

There will be a new heaven and earth age - not a new earth but a new age, the 3rd.

20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

In this age we are judged on our faith, then faith isn't required as we will see Christ and KNOW. Then we will be judged on the works we do.

20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Then we go into the eternity.

So, after making a long story much, much longer, it seems the priest will teach even very gentle souls as well as very intelligent souls about God. They will still be subject to death at the end of that time so the best plan is to achieve eternal life now and not take the chance.


...........Whirlwind



posted on Sep, 19 2007 @ 01:00 PM
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reply to post by madnessinmysoul
 




Originally posted by whirlwind
God feels them, we feel them.....They are what they are no matter what we consider them.


Madness -
again, my point on why your deity of choice isn't a perfect being.....yes... in an imperfect being illogical reactions such as hatred exist.



My "deity of choice" is the only Deity and He is perfect. Perfect is what He decides it will be, not us.


WW -
Perhaps the lesson is to learn to recognize if the anger and or hatred is justified and requires a reaction. At the very least, so that we don't again allow the event that put us in that frame of mind to happen again.

Madness -
there isn't justifiable hate.. maybe a bit of justifiable anger... but not hatred...and again, you've yet to show how a being that can hate is perfect.


Again, I have say that He decides what is and isn't perfect. He instilled these emotions and He Himself has these emotions. I thought about this conversation about emotions last night and this is what I believe it is all about. (my opinion only)

Colossians 3:8 But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth.

9.Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;

12.Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;



Here He tells us that when we "put off the old man", meaning we have a new spirit when we accept Christ, we will, or should, get rid of anger, wrath, etc. and instead be kind and humble.

So...this tells me that we are born into this age with these emotions. Perhaps they were put there by God as we have to deal with evil while in this age. He Himself feels these things against those, in this age, who do not follow Him. Could this mean that in the next age these bad emotions, such as hate, anger, jealousy, etc. won't be needed? I think so but until then they appear to be here to stay and maybe they need to be.


WW -
He gave us free will. That could mean He gives us enough rope to hang ourselves or enough to pull ourselves to safety. Our choice.

Madness -
then said being should feel no anger or hatred at our use for it... especially since, as an omniscient being, it would immediately know what our choice would be....
wait, we can't have both an omniscient deity and free will!
it wouldn't make sense that a being could create a universe knowing full well everything that would happen ever and still have free will...


If you gave the choice to your child to work for a living or steal for a living and at the same time letting him know what the full repercussions of his choice would be and he selected being a thief - wouldn't you be angry? He may know what we will do but always there is hope we won't.

Also, He controls the lives of His elect but He will NOT interfere with those of free will (unless they ask). It must be their choice.


WW -
Things happen, terrible things. This is not heaven and we have to deal with it. We have to try to change what we can and plow through the rest. You are blaming a God you don't believe in. If you do that then you must also credit Him for the wonderful things. Do you?

Madness -
i'm not blaming anything, i'm pointing out that your reasoning is faulty and was pointing out the fault in it.
you said it's a free will thing, i pointed out that nature has no will whatsoever and god should stop those things from happening if your postulates are right.


Nature doesn't have free will and God can stop those things but apparently He chooses not to. This isn't heaven and those turmoils of nature are one of the things we will have to make it through. I believe it is because of what happened in the first age. We'll see one day.






WW -
We're both trying, as hard as we can, until then know that He loves you.

Madness -
we? as in you and god? sorry to break it to you, but all the evidence points towards you wasting your time... ya know, cause there isn't any evidence to show that your partner exists.


There is so much there.....You just can't see it yet.



........Whirlwind



posted on Sep, 19 2007 @ 03:52 PM
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Originally posted by whirlwind
My "deity of choice" is the only Deity and He is perfect. Perfect is what He decides it will be, not us.


well, that's just an opinion. you can't back it up with any evidence, so please preface such statements with "I believe"
it's actually quite humble to do so



Again, I have say that He decides what is and isn't perfect. He instilled these emotions and He Himself has these emotions. I thought about this conversation about emotions last night and this is what I believe it is all about. (my opinion only)


...no, anger and hatred are actually evolutionary adaptations that we've since grown no real use for.



Here He tells us that when we "put off the old man", meaning we have a new spirit when we accept Christ, we will, or should, get rid of anger, wrath, etc. and instead be kind and humble.


yeah, i don't take much stock in the words of someone who so hypocritically and unhumbly stated that men are greater than women



So...this tells me that we are born into this age with these emotions. Perhaps they were put there by God as we have to deal with evil while in this age. He Himself feels these things against those, in this age, who do not follow Him. Could this mean that in the next age these bad emotions, such as hate, anger, jealousy, etc. won't be needed? I think so but until then they appear to be here to stay and maybe they need to be.


perhaps...
could this...
i think...

that's really all you have. you don't have evidence, you have personal judgments that lack it

[quote
If you gave the choice to your child to work for a living or steal for a living and at the same time letting him know what the full repercussions of his choice would be and he selected being a thief - wouldn't you be angry? He may know what we will do but always there is hope we won't.


...if there is hope we won't, god knows we won't.
god can't hope something won't happen if god is omniscient... all-knowing beings tend to know everything.



Also, He controls the lives of His elect but He will NOT interfere with those of free will (unless they ask). It must be their choice.


...yeah, you're ignoring the free-will versus omniscience argument.



Nature doesn't have free will and God can stop those things but apparently He chooses not to.


then god is cruel.



This isn't heaven and those turmoils of nature are one of the things we will have to make it through. I believe it is because of what happened in the first age. We'll see one day.


...again "i believe"
that's all you seem to have.




There is so much there.....You just can't see it yet.


how positively arrogant of you.
i'm actually seeing quite a bit, like what is actually there.



posted on Sep, 19 2007 @ 06:19 PM
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reply to post by madnessinmysoul
 



Originally posted by whirlwind
My "deity of choice" is the only Deity and He is perfect. Perfect is what He decides it will be, not us.

Madness -
well, that's just an opinion. you can't back it up with any evidence, so please preface such statements with "I believe" it's actually quite humble to do so


I use "I believe" if it is my opinion but the above statement doesn't qualify for that because I KNOW. He is the only God.


WW -
Again, I have say that He decides what is and isn't perfect. He instilled these emotions and He Himself has these emotions. I thought about this conversation about emotions last night and this is what I believe it is all about. (my opinion only)

Madness -
...no, anger and hatred are actually evolutionary adaptations that we've since grown no real use for.


I don't believe those emotions had to evolve. They have always been with us. I wish there was no need for them but I humbly say, perhaps there still is a need for anger, etc. (my opinion only, of course)...lol

The reason I say that is that Cain slew his brother Abel at the beginning so those emotions aren't new.


WW -
Here He tells us that when we "put off the old man", meaning we have a new spirit when we accept Christ, we will, or should, get rid of anger, wrath, etc. and instead be kind and humble.

Madness -
yeah, i don't take much stock in the words of someone who so hypocritically and unhumbly stated that men are greater than women


Shouldn't that be, in your humble opinion you believe that to be the case?


WW -
So...this tells me that we are born into this age with these emotions. Perhaps they were put there by God as we have to deal with evil while in this age. He Himself feels these things against those, in this age, who do not follow Him. Could this mean that in the next age these bad emotions, such as hate, anger, jealousy, etc. won't be needed? I think so but until then they appear to be here to stay and maybe they need to be.

Madness -
perhaps... could this... i think...

that's really all you have. you don't have evidence, you have personal judgments that lack it


Of course these are just personal ideas. How in the world could one prove what emotions are about?


WW -
If you gave the choice to your child to work for a living or steal for a living and at the same time letting him know what the full repercussions of his choice would be and he selected being a thief - wouldn't you be angry? He may know what we will do but always there is hope we won't.

Madness -
...if there is hope we won't, god knows we won't.
god can't hope something won't happen if god is omniscient... all-knowing beings tend to know everything.


We don't know, now do we? He is what He is. He is the I AM which is whatever He is. It isn't for us to know the mind of God.


WW -
Also, He controls the lives of His elect but He will NOT interfere with those of free will (unless they ask). It must be their choice.

Madness -
...yeah, you're ignoring the free-will versus omniscience argument.


I know that the statement I made about God in the lives of His elect and those of free will is true. Other than that I can't add to the argument.



WW -
Nature doesn't have free will and God can stop those things but apparently He chooses not to.

Madness -
then god is cruel.


Everyone will have to struggle with that on their own. Death and destruction is difficult to deal with and understand. My belief is that His main focus is that of our souls, not so much our flesh lives.


WW -
This isn't heaven and those turmoils of nature are one of the things we will have to make it through. I believe it is because of what happened in the first age. We'll see one day.

Madness -
...again "i believe"
that's all you seem to have.


Sorry but that is all I can offer on certain topics.



WW -
There is so much there.....You just can't see it yet.

Madness -
how positively arrogant of you.
i'm actually seeing quite a bit, like what is actually there.


There is a fine line between arrogance and being very certain. I'm not arrogant.


...........Whirlwind



posted on Sep, 19 2007 @ 07:47 PM
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Originally posted by whirlwind
I use "I believe" if it is my opinion but the above statement doesn't qualify for that because I KNOW. He is the only God.


So.... How do you know? where did you get your 'facts' from? Don't tell me... bible?





Originally posted by whirlwind
If you gave the choice to your child to work for a living or steal for a living and at the same time letting him know what the full repercussions of his choice would be and he selected being a thief - wouldn't you be angry? He may know what we will do but always there is hope we won't.


There is proof for that 'full repercussion' in this world. I don't see hell or heaven, do you?



Originally posted by whirlwind
Also, He controls the lives of His elect but He will NOT interfere with those of free will (unless they ask). It must be their choice.


So do we get to chose to goto heaven or hell? No.. so no free will. It's like saying to a child, do this and die, while I'm at it I'll make you burn in hell...
Why doesn't he let us chose? After all we have 'free-will'. If he's stupid enough to stop all the suffering and don't, then why should people goto hell because they 'sinned'? The biggest sin of all is by 'god'.




Originally posted by whirlwind
Everyone will have to struggle with that on their own. Death and destruction is difficult to deal with and understand. My belief is that His main focus is that of our souls, not so much our flesh lives.


So your saying that everyone that prays for anyone that dies in natural disasters are stupid? Cause there's no point of praying for them when god inflicted the damage...



Originally posted by whirlwind
There is a fine line between arrogance and being very certain. I'm not arrogant.


Hmm doesn't it sound like the words of an arrogant person? "I'm not arrogant"

[edit on 19-9-2007 by AncientVoid]



posted on Sep, 20 2007 @ 10:44 AM
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Originally posted by AncientVoid

Originally posted by whirlwind
I use "I believe" if it is my opinion but the above statement doesn't qualify for that because I KNOW. He is the only God.


So.... How do you know? where did you get your 'facts' from? Don't tell me... bible?


Well of course it's the Bible. That is the best source there is for His Word.



Originally posted by whirlwind
If you gave the choice to your child to work for a living or steal for a living and at the same time letting him know what the full repercussions of his choice would be and he selected being a thief - wouldn't you be angry? He may know what we will do but always there is hope we won't.


There is proof for that 'full repercussion' in this world. I don't see hell or heaven, do you?

In this life the repercussions would be going to jail and not being with your father. In the next life the repercussions would be going to hell and not being with your Father. He does everything He can, as your own father would, or as you would for your son, to keep that from happening but the final outcome is your choice.

I do want to add one thing. To me, hell is being where God isn't. The torment would be knowing He is real and that you aren't part of that. My belief is that is what is meant by the torment associated with hell, but that is just my belief.



Originally posted by whirlwind
Also, He controls the lives of His elect but He will NOT interfere with those of free will (unless they ask). It must be their choice.

So do we get to chose to goto heaven or hell? No.. so no free will. It's like saying to a child, do this and die, while I'm at it I'll make you burn in hell...
Why doesn't he let us chose? After all we have 'free-will'. If he's stupid enough to stop all the suffering and don't, then why should people goto hell because they 'sinned'? The biggest sin of all is by 'god'.


Yes, you get to choose where you go of your own free will. You make that choice by loving Him, believing in Christ and repenting of your sins. Or, you make the choice of turning your back on Him. Your choice.

You err in calling Him stupid. Please reconsider that.



Originally posted by whirlwind
Everyone will have to struggle with that on their own. Death and destruction is difficult to deal with and understand. My belief is that His main focus is that of our souls, not so much our flesh lives.


So your saying that everyone that prays for anyone that dies in natural disasters are stupid? Cause there's no point of praying for them when god inflicted the damage...

No, that isn't what I'm saying at all. Of couse you pray for others all the time but you should always pray in His will. He may or may not answer the prayer as He knows what needs to happen, not us. Our part would be to know if our soul was ready or not.


Originally posted by whirlwind
There is a fine line between arrogance and being very certain. I'm not arrogant.

Hmm doesn't it sound like the words of an arrogant person? "I'm not arrogant"

[edit on 19-9-2007 by AncientVoid]


I'm not. An arrogant person would be one that believes he/she knows more than the One that created said person. An arrogant person would be one that called God stupid and saying that He committs the biggest sin of all...........that is arrogance!


...........Whirlwind



posted on Sep, 20 2007 @ 12:30 PM
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Originally posted by whirlwind
I use "I believe" if it is my opinion but the above statement doesn't qualify for that because I KNOW. He is the only God.


no, you don't. you believe. knowledge is something that can be backed up, you cannot defend that statement outside the confines of religious dogma. it is purely a hypothesis.



I don't believe those emotions had to evolve. They have always been with us. I wish there was no need for them but I humbly say, perhaps there still is a need for anger, etc. (my opinion only, of course)...lol


EMOTION had to evolve, not just those emotions.



The reason I say that is that Cain slew his brother Abel at the beginning so those emotions aren't new.


...those two people didn't exist unless you can prove they did.
and hominids were around for a few million years prior to the supposed time period of that.



Shouldn't that be, in your humble opinion you believe that to be the case?


...no, he actually does say that women are of the glory of man while men are of the glory of god.
he's saying the chain of greatness goes god > man > woman

it's quite obvious that paul was a misogynist, but that's just because he was a product of his time and culture, nothing you can really blame him for. i don't take much stock in the hypocricy of those that refuse to be humble telling us to be so.



Of course these are just personal ideas. How in the world could one prove what emotions are about?


...emotions can be proven to be products of evolution. survival mechanisms that formed over the course of 4 billion years.



We don't know, now do we? He is what He is. He is the I AM which is whatever He is. It isn't for us to know the mind of God.


you're avoiding the point. i'm saying that free will and omniscience are contradictory.





I know that the statement I made about God in the lives of His elect and those of free will is true. Other than that I can't add to the argument.


...no, actually, you believe it is doctrinally sound. however, contradictions to that statement can also be supported biblically.



Everyone will have to struggle with that on their own. Death and destruction is difficult to deal with and understand. My belief is that His main focus is that of our souls, not so much our flesh lives.


....why must you participate in special pleading for an all powerful being?
honestly, the only options i can see for not stopping those disasters are cruelty, apathy, or impotence...
lack of focus on an issue wouldn't be an issue for an omni^3



Sorry but that is all I can offer on certain topics.


maybe you should try using simple logic and reason



There is a fine line between arrogance and being very certain. I'm not arrogant.


to be certain of something you cannot prove is inherently arrogant.



posted on Sep, 20 2007 @ 06:50 PM
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Originally posted by whirlwind
Of course these are just personal ideas. How in the world could one prove what emotions are about?


Emotions....

What gives an organism motivation and goal-directed behaviour. Assess differences between goals (internal) and reality (external). Can simply be viewed as a mechanism of reward and punishment.

We can go back to William James for a basic view of emotion - an evolutionary adaptive behavioural and physiological response tendency.

Take away emotion, and people become not so much Spock-like, but like a ship without a motivational rudder.

[edit on 20-9-2007 by melatonin]



posted on Sep, 20 2007 @ 07:14 PM
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reply to post by madnessinmysoul
 


Originally posted by whirlwind
I use "I believe" if it is my opinion but the above statement doesn't qualify for that because I KNOW. He is the only God.

Madness -
no, you don't. you believe. knowledge is something that can be backed up, you cannot defend that statement outside the confines of religious dogma. it is purely a hypothesis.


I can back it up with spiritual events but you either can't or won't believe them. So...what would it prove? Some can back up complete fairy tales and myths with what they believe is knowledge.


I don't believe those emotions had to evolve. They have always been with us. I wish there was no need for them but I humbly say, perhaps there still is a need for anger, etc. (my opinion only, of course)...lol

EMOTION had to evolve, not just those emotions.


No, we came equipped with a full range of emotions. The same ones today that make us laugh, cry, get angry, get jealous, hate, love. It is part of our being and a strong proof of being a creation of God, not a cosmic explosion or tiny little creature creeping out of a primordial pond.


WW -The reason I say that is that Cain slew his brother Abel at the beginning so those emotions aren't new.

Madness -
...those two people didn't exist unless you can prove they did.
and hominids were around for a few million years prior to the supposed time period of that.


We're back to square one. You can't prove any ancient being existed in a doubters mind. I know they existed because the Bible states that they did and that Christ was from that family. No flesh human being was around a few million years ago - NOT ONE.


Of course these are just personal ideas. How in the world could one prove what emotions are about?

Madness -
...emotions can be proven to be products of evolution. survival mechanisms that formed over the course of 4 billion years.


It can't be proven at all. You believe it was as I believe it wasn't.


We don't know, now do we? He is what He is. He is the I AM which is whatever He is. It isn't for us to know the mind of God.

you're avoiding the point. i'm saying that free will and omniscience are contradictory.


I'm not trying to avoid anything. There is nothing more I can add to it. God will involve Himself in the life of His elect enough for them to accomplish what they should do. If one makes a mistake along the way they still pay for it.



Everyone will have to struggle with that on their own. Death and destruction is difficult to deal with and understand. My belief is that His main focus is that of our souls, not so much our flesh lives.

Madness -
....why must you participate in special pleading for an all powerful being?
honestly, the only options i can see for not stopping those disasters are cruelty, apathy, or impotence...
lack of focus on an issue wouldn't be an issue for an omni^3


You know I'm not doing any pleading at all. As I have said, He is what He is and it isn't for us to know. You may ask Him anything you wish but you may or may not be answered.


There is a fine line between arrogance and being very certain. I'm not arrogant.

to be certain of something you cannot prove is inherently arrogant


Madness, is your mirror cracked??? You are just as certain of what you cannot prove and yet I don't find you to be arrogant. A little out of sorts at times but not arrogant.


...........Whirlwind



posted on Sep, 20 2007 @ 07:22 PM
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reply to post by melatonin
 




Originally posted by whirlwind
Of course these are just personal ideas. How in the world could one prove what emotions are about?


Emotions....

What gives an organism motivation and goal-directed behaviour. Assess differences between goals (internal) and reality (external). Can simply be viewed as a mechanism of reward and punishment.

We can go back to William James for a basic view of emotion - an evolutionary adaptive behavioural and physiological response tendency.

Take away emotion, and people become not so much Spock-like, but like a ship without a motivational rudder.



Emotion is a response tendency but why do you believe it had to evolve?

Thank goodness we aren't without them, what a dull, dull world this would be. Not necessarily the hate or anger so much....I would prefer to live without them but if we eradicate those will the others go too? If that was the choice then I would choose to keep them all.


..............Whirlwind



posted on Sep, 20 2007 @ 07:53 PM
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Originally posted by whirlwind
Emotion is a response tendency but why do you believe it had to evolve?


Simply because the evidence suggests we evolved from simpler life-forms, so why wouldn't emotions have evolved?

We see emotions in other animals. We see how the brain has evolved over time, from the basic instinctual adaptive emotional systems in mammals (and even fish), to the complex emotion and emotion-regulating neural systems we have.

Take out the amygdala of a primate or a human, and we see very similar emotional and social deficits (i.e. Kluver-Bucy syndrome-like behaviours).

[edit on 20-9-2007 by melatonin]



posted on Sep, 20 2007 @ 09:49 PM
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reply to post by DeadFlagBlues
 


I have a wondrous fear of God. The one who made it all? I fear his power! How amazing it is that he welcomes us!



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